[Citizen] Irontaino (Patron: Elfdude)

[Elfdude]

Irontaino
Join Date: November 2009
Posts: 3,569

Gather round ye fools as I tell you the story of Irontaino, one of the legendary posters of Twcenter who nonetheless has escaped the gaze of a willful patron. It's not surprising as speaking with many others have been surprised to find he is not yet a citizen and many assumed maybe he had willfully chosen to forgo the privilege. After a quick exchange I realized that was not the case, Iron has simply never been approached despite a nearly 10 year history of stupendous posts. Irontaino began his forum exploits merely out of interest in modding after enjoying empires so much. Of course empires in comparison to many of the total war franchise was hobbled by various deficits but I too enjoyed the system immensely. His initial posts were brief and his engagement with the community was similarly brief but as we all know the avalanche of interest gradually picked up momentum. Soon he found the Vestigia Vetustatis and Thema Devia and of course the Games forums. The debate forums, and the gaming forums. Truly I've rarely encountered someone as varied as Iron in his posts. His bountiful posting on a variety of forums is mesmerizing.

He posts in the arts forums:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=1#post8562553
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=#post15089634

His game reviews are epic, detailed and combine a writer's talent with a brevity which allows him to drive straight to the point.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ale&highlight=
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...8#post15617768
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=#post15201807

His Debate is spot on, short and sweet, yet his grasp of detail is so skillfully employed that it melds perfectly with his message yet answers all of the questions his opponents may have (were they to actually want to learn):

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=#post15317596
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...0#post15457590
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=#post15089702
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=#post15203052
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=#post15061586
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=#post15170472

Of course what's more impressive is he's not afraid to point out the glaring flaws in his opponents debate while still maintaining a tongue in cheek almost happy-go-lucky approach to doing so. He doesn't get angry, he doesn't insult his opponents with cheap tricks or tactics. His efforts are stupendous.

Here's more:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...4#post15419814
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=#post15317596
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...0#post15457590
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=#post15089702
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=#post15203052


As a solid member for nearly a decade the vast majority of his posts are more or less inaccessible but I've googled some highlights for you to peruse:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...maliland/page2
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...scussion/page2
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...lfhednar/page2
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...eal-Life/page2
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...-Romans)/page5
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ar-1100)/page2
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...*****-up/page3
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ge4&styleid=41
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ge3&styleid=41

I could go on of course. The reality is Iron is a quality and stable member who posts respectfully and thoughtfully all across the forum. His posts are great at generating new quality responses and he engages those around him actively responding and reacting. His posts tend to be short and sweet which is a rarity especially when it comes to debate but anyone who sees them is undoubtedly going to come away with more knowledge or a slight correction of their aforementioned statements, his intellectual honestly extends to both sides which allows him to even correct those who others would view as on "his side" he seems to mostly care about a good debate and good fun.

A brief message from Irontaino himself:

I joined almost 10 years ago cause of all the great Medieval II mods like Third Age and ones I were following that, sadly, have since gone dead. When I got Empire, I also started following mods such as DarthMod and Imperial Splendour. I started really engaging with the community in the AAR section, reading some good ones and even trying to write some of my own...though my short attention span got in the way.

Once I started posting in D&D, I got some really good debates, learned a lot of points of view, proven and had people prove me wrong on a bunch of stuff. There was plenty of mudslinging of course and quite a few unhinged folks, there were even more cool people who, even the ones I disagreed with, could have a good conversation/debate with. I haven't been as active as before because life, but I still like seeing what's going on in the community and every now and again giving my 2 cents.

I've been on the lookout for people deserving of Citizenship as a method to help revive the curia and to strengthen the community. I think irontaino's ability to juggle multiple forums, offer quick and decisive opinions and to be well researched in his approach is well worth citizenship and although his activity by some standards may be low, the quality more than makes up for it.

Thus I ask you all to support his patronization as a citizen.

[Gaius Baltar]

Some of these posts look average at best, I could also point out the glaring fact that he appears to never have entered a graphics or writing competition.

Low number of posts for a 10 year veteran.

I just don't think he's there yet. Ill keep reviewing his posts though.

[Elfdude]

I think a 10 year veteran who posts so many places and has done so without moderator action for years (I duno if he's ever gotten more than a warning for censor bypass years ago) in a variety of communities while citing straightforward points and remaining unmuddy in the mudpit of all places is rather noteworthy. The question IMO is what does he bring to the curia as a citizen and I think his history speaks for itself. He brings stability. He posts in areas that to be totally honest wouldn't have much activity but generate a ton of content. He's got institutional knowledge having been at TWCenter for a decade. Personally seems to be the exact type of person we should want.

His roleplaying:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...FBn&highlight=
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...avs&highlight=

More solid reviews:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...uth&highlight=

More debate:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=#post15597023
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=#post15596606
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=#post15596562
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=#post15580425
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=#post15579928
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=#post15579852
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=#post15576869
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=#post15576796
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=#post15457590

These posts are solid quality and they continue to get better. Much of his activity is recent and he's likely to continue to be active.

What exactly are you suggesting he's missing?

[Commissar Caligula_]

3500 posts isn't that low. That's nearly 1 post a day for 10 years.

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

@Elfdude's presentation looking solid and the will to strengthen-enlarge curia with worthy citizens is ofc appreciated.
I'll surely need to check his posts though, since I'm not familiar with the applicant.

[Sir Adrian]

His reviews are ok. Just above what was minimum required but he did put some effort, so they're a plus. His posts on the other hand are either zebra posts (which is exactly what the curia does not need) or one liners made from an ideological basis instead of a factual one - another major no-no.
On the other hand 9 years shows commitment and if what Elfdude says about his moderation interaction is true that's massive points for cvility.


Overall I'm torn and I'll see what others say about him but I will support this so he can be voted on.

PS: Fix your links Elfdude. You have a several duplicates and 3 of them change the skin to mobile white hell.

[z3n]

3500 posts isn't that low. That's nearly 1 post a day for 10 years.

Exactly.

In some of my posts I hit the character limit. I would like to think single long or well thought out posts are worth a couple of posts in terms of quality.


We should judge post quality.

update:

To be fair though, I've been struggling to find post quality -- some are quite good in terms of gentlemanly debating style which I perhaps lack sometimes and fortunately my award was not for being a citizen (I have seen some posts that are not fantastic however). I haven't found any that have "Wow'd" me yet.

[Gaius Baltar]

What exactly are you suggesting he's missing?

Irontaino, I am familiar with him as I have run into him from time to time. It was somewhat nostalgic reading the posts from 2010 with Garbasardar in the conversation. Anyway, I would like to hear more about his TW involvement. Does he still play Med Total War 2? Has he ever considered entering the screenshot competitions or writing competitions?

None of these are an application killer but I would like to think that prospective citizens have some interest in the TW side of things here.

[Elfdude]

His reviews are ok. Just above what was minimum required but he did put some effort, so they're a plus. His posts on the other hand are either zebra posts (which is exactly what the curia does not need) or one liners made from an ideological basis instead of a factual one - another major no-no.

Errm. Can you expand on this? He's very good at citing things with solid links. I think there's plenty of citizens who make very short posts or very few posts, what sets them apart in my mind is that they usually deliver opinions which promote a better discussion, my own patron made many very short posts quite similar to Iron's. This combined with:

On the other hand 9 years shows commitment and if what Elfdude says about his moderation interaction is true that's massive points for cvility.

Puts him in the realm of deserving citizenship. I'm not saying this guy is going to get best poster by any means but he's solid and consistent and unusually respectful for the amount of posts he makes.

Overall I'm torn and I'll see what others say about him but I will support this so he can be voted on.

Thanks.

PS: Fix your links Elfdude. You have a several duplicates and 3 of them change the skin to mobile white hell.

Duno how, I had to search most of his posts through google and as they exist in parts of the forum which cannot be searched by the inbuilt system. It was no joy to search through them which is part of the issue in providing the posts I remember as standing out over the years here. Sorry buddy. You can change to full site at the bottom.

Exactly.
In some of my posts I hit the character limit. I would like to think single long or well thought out posts are worth a couple of posts in terms of quality.

We should judge post quality.

update:

To be fair though, I've been struggling to find post quality -- some are quite good in terms of gentlemanly debating style which I perhaps lack sometimes and fortunately my award was not for being a citizen (I have seen some posts that are not fantastic however). I haven't found any that have "Wow'd" me yet.

Some of the addendum are what I'd put as wow, but I think it's important to compare the line we want our citizens to reach not the heights many aspire to. His most solid contributions are regular activity (about 1 per day) over a variety of forums intersecting several communities without major moderator action. I think that in of itself is deserving of citizen recognition. Truly if he didn't enjoy the community he wouldn't have persisted this long and rewarding his commitment with the ability to participate in governance is (I would like to think) easily justified.

Irontaino, I am familiar with him as I have run into him from time to time. It was somewhat nostalgic reading the posts from 2010 with Garbasardar in the conversation. Anyway, I would like to hear more about his TW involvement. Does he still play Med Total War 2? Has he ever considered entering the screenshot competitions or writing competitions?

None of these are an application killer but I would like to think that prospective citizens have some interest in the TW side of things here.

I don't involve myself in any TW games, the last I played was warhammer but to be honest since Rome Total Realism I haven't found any of the TW series the least bit interesting. While I appreciate the roots of this website I feel that a community is more than the sum of it's parts and often grows to encapsulate topics and areas which are almost entirely unrelated to those roots, that's a very healthy community because you need a very big funnel of people to generate enough activity and content to keep that fraction which is skilled at modding, writing, or expanding the community into new frontiers. IMO iron has been a staple to that for nearly as long as I have offering crucial support in a variety of areas. I will ask him of course but my point is that it should be viewed as a bonus rather than a prerequisite.

[z3n]

His posting style reminds me of Ferrets54 -- some good points here and there but questionable behaviour (while not crossing the line) at times while at other times managing to be gentlemanly.

If there were a few 'wow' posts it would help.

[Elfdude]

Errm? Ferrets? Really?

Do you see questionable behavior?

[z3n]

Errm? Ferrets? Really?

Do you see questionable behavior?

Very short posts -- with not much content yes, that's basically what I see Ferrets54 do.

As for questionable behaviour, I don't necessarily claim to see a pervasive pattern of derogatory behavior nor is it under my direct purview to judge whether it exists but citizens should be held to a higher standard than your average poster especially if said citizens posts are what make them a citizen.


The following exhibits are solely my opinion and obviously others may have different standards for what 'high standard' a citizen should be held to.
a)
Should be attacking the post not the poster, and also treat his opponent with more respect
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15468943

b)
Again attacking the poster instead of the post. It's a little insulting as well.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15597415

c)
Sycophants? Meant to be insulting to other forum posters and not really contributing much here.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15544259

d)
He could have explained why they are not biased in his view.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15376522

e)
It seems intellectual put downs are a thing for him
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15574611



I read a couple others that made me leery previously but I'll lay off. Again, this may just be a personal viewpoint of mine but where is the respect?

People posting on TWC are humans (for the most part ) no matter their viewpoint or perspective.

[Elfdude]

Very short posts -- with not much content yes, that's basically what I see Ferrets54 do.

Fair enough. I think that's what the majority of posters do.

As for questionable behaviour, I don't necessarily claim to see a pervasive pattern of derogatory behavior nor is it under my direct purview to judge whether it exists but citizens should be held to a higher standard than your average poster especially if said citizens posts are what make them a citizen.

The following exhibits are solely my opinion and obviously others may have different standards for what 'high standard' a citizen should be held to.
a)
Should be attacking the post not the poster, and also treat his opponent with more respect
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15468943

b)
Again attacking the poster instead of the post. It's a little insulting as well.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15597415

c)
Sycophants? Meant to be insulting to other forum posters and not really contributing much here.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15544259

d)
He could have explained why they are not biased in his view.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15376522

e)
It seems intellectual put downs are a thing for him
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15574611

People posting on TWC are humans (for the most part ) no matter their viewpoint or perspective.

Interesting, do you feel that if you do that with other citizens you won't find the same? (<hides his own profile>)

My point is here, is this below the line which you consider ineligible for citizenship despite a 10 year history and almost no moderation record?

[PikeStance]

His posting style reminds me of Ferrets54 -- some good points here and there but questionable behaviour (while not crossing the line) at times while at other times managing to be gentlemanly.

If there were a few 'wow' posts it would help.

Errm? Ferrets? Really?

Do you see questionable behavior?

Gentleman,
Please let's refrain from comparing to other members of the board.

[z3n]

Right, sorry. I was trying to avoid posting my exact thoughts on the matter.

Essentially what I am getting at is that we may end up having a citizens referral in some form or another like we have seen in the past which is counter-intuitive as we don't grant citizenship knowing that may happen ahead of time. I'd suggest the applicant simply is not ready despite his tenure at TWC.

The applicant does not necessarily adhere to the Citizens Handbook as is --, which while being a guideline, does emphasize the values citizens are supposed to uphold.

Unless I can be swayed with some 'wow' posts, I'm disinclined to support him despite liking the amount of interaction he has on parts of the forum, it is counterbalanced by some of the behaviour evidenced within the posts.

[Iskar]

I see a solid contributor with a long standing history of debating that still manages to resist the maelstroem of troll-debating occurring in the mudpit. A pretty clear yes for and from me.

PS: I do not agree with zen's analysis of his posts. Pointing out inconsistencies and inaccuracies in other people's post is still attacking their post and not the poster, even if it may be embarassing for the post's author to see their flawed arguments exposed.

[z3n]

I see a solid contributor with a long standing history of debating that still manages to resist the maelstroem of troll-debating occurring in the mudpit. A pretty clear yes for and from me.

PS: I do not agree with zen's analysis of his posts. Pointing out inconsistencies and inaccuracies in other people's post is still attacking their post and the poster, even if it may be embarassing for the post's author to see their flawed arguments exposed.

The applicant cuts it awfully close to insulting others in his posts, reading handicaps do exist and making fun of people for that reason is a negative in my eyes.

I don't believe I incorrectly analyzed that post at all. Again, the standards for being a citizen are in fact higher than the average poster I stand by that.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Opposed, for reasons that the debate is mediocre at best, seniority =/= eligibility for citizenship, and the gaming contributions are indeed sub par. It seems to me that his game reviews are the most promising, but this seems to be a recent contribution and unfortunately one that is not as well fleshed out. Could he be a citizen in the future? Of course, especially in his current track with the game reviews. Is he there yet? Unfortunately I do not think so. I'd encourage him to engage more with the gaming section, keep up with the game reviews, and attempt to more fully flesh out his political debates. That could make him a competitive candidate in 3-6 months.

On an unrelated note and just because I hate the argument, 1 post per day for ten years is actually nothing. I've taken 6 months at a time off on TWC for nearly 11 years and I'm at 15 posts per day. If we're goign to disregard quality for quantity...I hope we can all agree better arguments can be made with regards to a member being worthy of citizenship. I was in fact denied at least once in an application because I was considered a serial spammer (we now call that the RPG section...)

[Elfdude]

As a note from the candidate:

He does indeed play TW games, mostly single player, he intends to continue to do game reviews and has missed out on writing competitions mostly due to a lack of time. He dislikes long posts because he feels most people don't read them which is frustrating in debate so he tries to keep his posts as succinct as possible while still conveying a point. All of this makes sense to me.

[PikeStance]

Generally, an application would contain the very best posts. If this is the case, then I have a serious reservation. The quantity and the commitment to post over a long period of time is commendable. His behavior and attitude seem exemplary. I do not see any issues with the post cited in another post. Short and sweet posts are fine. The occasional one-liner or "zinger" posts add humor and fun to the forum. These are always positive. The issue I have with the posts provided is that they often rely on "links" to make an argument. You can see it here, here, and here. In a good argument, sources are evidence of your argument, not your argument. I actually noticed this applicant some time ago and opted not to pursue him further because of the reasoning I just cited. I didn't read the reviews, but they seem to be a "new" thing for him and I trust the comments that they are good quality. It isn't enough in my opinion. I agree with Ponty, there is something here and I see no reason if he applies more effort in his posts, he will be a citizen. If he would like to give his .02 then I would encourage him to do so in the Curial Commentary Thread. It is not required, but I was advised to do so when I inquired about citizenship back in the day. It is another way of contributing and a good for people to get to know you better. For now, I OPPOSED.