a worrying development in modding

[PikeStance]

I mean, Radious has already done so much work towards modding for the community.
What right do we have to force him to update his mods for the current content?

I am not sure wherre you get this notion from, but I said the opposite. If Radious no long wishes to mod, the community will continue after his retirement like it has done with so many other past great modders.

After all, a player can't live off just playing Total War games (no matter what they may wish) unless they somehow became a big youtube gaming personality.

Online personalities are an entirely different thing.

So the way I see it, if Radious wants to ask for Donations in exchange for creating or updating more mods, he's perfectly fine in doing so. It's nothing like paid mods, we're just paying Radious to have more time to make more mods. : D

Now, if he starts demanding money for current content, that's where I start to get a little iffy about all this. Cause at that point, monetizing currently released content is like paid mods. Unless he releases it for free later, than it's just like what artists do on Patreon, in which case it should also be okay....

Claiming that you want to be compensated for your time (technically it is labor) instead of the content is an obvious circumvention.

[herne_the _hunter]

In hindsight rather than say "I haven't the time time unless you give me money then I have the time" it would have been better for all parties concerned to say he wasn't going to update his mods. His mods are still playable on patch 17.
After all if CA are going to reguly go back to titles in the future then in 5-10 years time in the future Radious is really going to have his work cut out more than what it is now with ongoing mod support

[SoulGamesInc]

every youtuber has it even when they "just making videos and playing", not creating anything

Ignoring the slap in the face to all Youtubers Mods making profit and Youtubers making profit are two entirely different topics.

Your good could not exist without their base game thus you are profiting off of their work.

All just my two cents (I'm bored) while I'd love to see a world where modders could be fairly compensated for their efforts the reality is we're changing games we don't own rights to and in large part why modding hasn't been destroyed is down to Fair Use and most developers being smart enough to view it as healthy rather than a threat, something that risks changing the instant mods make enough profit. You've a 'grey area' calling it donations opposed to payments but the second the handling of money for a product without the owners consent becomes a 'thing' then I personally become quite nervous. It's for this reason I'm personally not comfortable with it. That's just Me.

I view it very much as playing with fire. The only future where Mods profit safely enough for my comfort would be CA/Sega consenting to some agreement.

[Aanker]

The truth is that if Radious et al stop making their mods in absense of your money, someone else will step up and make a comparable vanilla overhaul. As Radious himself said, he started working on Shogun II. Before that, there was Darthmod and a variety of other, smaller competitors.

Rest assured that the void will be filled. There's no need to part ways with your hard-earned money to support spreadsheet editing that someone else could just as easily do, motivated by the absense of larger competitors. Total conversion mods are trickier because they usually involve new models and textures, and this content sometimes entirely replaces that in vanilla (see Third Age), but even then you can't be sure that the money you're donating goes to the right person. Anyone can edit an excel table, not anyone can create a texture, let alone a 3D model. It's the latter talent you most want to keep in the community as it's much harder to find.

Furthermore, every now and then it's good to refresh the talent pool. If the same modders make the same mods and the community supports them no matter what, fresh talent at the bottom will be starved. Let someone new enter the field and give their take on an overhaul. And if other people toss money at Radious and end up funding him - good for you, just download the product for free afterwards, your wallet no lighter than before.

[Leonardo]

All just my two cents (I'm bored) while I'd love to see a world where modders could be fairly compensated for their efforts the reality is we're changing games we don't own rights to and in large part why modding hasn't been destroyed is down to Fair Use and most developers being smart enough to view it as healthy rather than a threat, something that risks changing the instant mods make enough profit. You've a 'grey area' calling it donations opposed to payments but the second the handling of money for a product without the owners consent becomes a 'thing' then I personally become quite nervous. It's for this reason I'm personally not comfortable with it. That's just Me.

You are not alone, I too have the exactly the same sentiment as you have.

[LestaT]

Asking for compensation of any kind is a circumvention of the intellectual property right of Creative Assembly.
I have never seen anyone that ask for a donation with the expectation that you do not donate.

Modding is time-consuming, but it isn't that difficult. You have to love to do it. The game of the game is irrelevant. I mod ETW and it is much older than Rome II.

Legally, I'm charging for the spend time creating something requested by some others. Not charging for the mod itself, which is illegal and certainly immoral.

[PikeStance]

Legally, I'm charging for the spend time creating something requested by some others. Not charging for the mod itself, which is illegal and certainly immoral.

This is a clear and obvious circumvention.
The motivation of a modification is that you find the game lacking in some way. The creation of the modification is for yourself. Publishing it is an act of sharing your modification. You are volunteering your changes because you believe it is worthwhile thing to share. The difference between your labor and the developers labor is they own the rights to the game. You are using their labor, their intellectual property and modifying it. If you want compensation for your labor then you need compensate the developers efforts as well. Without their game, your mod does not exist. Modding is first and foremost a hobby. It can also be away to show what you can do if your goal is to work in the gaming industry. The bottom line is modding should always remain a hobby. Any argument you can possibly make ultimately means you owe the developer some form of compensation. <Moreover, there isn't a bargaining chip. Modding is a revolving door. When one exit, another enter. As long as there a demand for mods, they will always be modders. When I looked mods and didn't see one that I wanted, then I got off my duff and made one! If a 40-something can learn how to mod, then anyone can.

[Leonardo]

Legally, I'm charging for the spend time creating something requested by some others. Not charging for the mod itself, which is illegal and certainly immoral.

I agree with Pike, it is a circumvention of others property and copyright.

[LestaT]

I agree with Pike, it is a circumvention of others property and copyright.

I dont agree, so see you in court.

If I buy a game, mod it the way I want and sell it before you can play it then yes, it's wrong, illegal, immoral etc etc.

If I'm doing something on my own, feeding my non existing cat whatsoever and you demand me to do something, whether do your laundry, cook for you, feed your cat or mod thia or that game the way you want it to be played, then I have every right to demand every penny as compensation for wasring my time. Obviously you dont have to pay, because alternatively you can find aomeone else who's willing to do it pro bono for you. Or you can get your ass off that chair and start doing it on your own.

[PikeStance]

I don't agree, so see you in court.

If I buy a game, mod it the way I want and sell it before you can play it then yes, it's wrong, illegal, immoral etc etc.

If I'm doing something on my own, feeding my non existing cat whatsoever and you demand me to do something, whether do your laundry, cook for you, feed your cat or mod thia or that game the way you want it to be played, then I have every right to demand every penny as compensation for wasting my time. Obviously, you don't have to pay, because alternatively, you can find someone else who's willing to do it pro bono for you. Or you can get your ass off that chair and start doing it on your own.

Modders do not waste their time. They are already modding to change the way the game plays for them. Publishing it is your choice and your choice alone. The second point is exactly why you do not need to pay anyone anything; someone else will either do it or you will be compelled to do it yourself. When the hobby stops being a hobby and a waste of your time or no longer fun for you, then you will stop and someone else will do it instead.

[Gigantus]

Asking\requesting\soliciting remuneration for a derivative of a product that you do not legally don't own the rights to is hardly legal. Especially since you already agreed that all and any rights in connection with the game remain with SEGA.

You agree and acknowledge that all title, ownership rights, and intellectual property rights connected with the Game Software and any and all copies (in particular any titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialogues, catch phrases, places, concepts, artwork, animation, sounds, music, audio-visual effects, text, methods of operation, moral rights and any related documentation) are owned by Sega or its licensors. The Game Software contains certain licensed materials and Sega's licensors may protect their rights in the event of any violation of this Agreement.

Please don't try to obfuscate by pointing out that modifications are not in the 'particular' list.

[izzi]

As a modder myself, i understand both subjects. I love modding, because i see it as a prestige part of the game, not for any gain. But i am not against (humble) donations, without the modder asking for it. Modding is for the community and love for doing it. Sometimes i am tired of modding and i take a break for a moment and sometimes i go full 100%. Off course, sometimes there can be some members that asks to many changes for their own will. The problem guys is that we all humans like to criticize one another. Even i do criticize sometimes. Some modders ask things, some others not. As long as we love the game and the mod, who cares really. Some give donations, some not, who cares really. Let us just enjoy it...

[bigdaddy1204]

I found this thread illuminating. If Radious doesn't feel like updating Rome II (a game he doesn't even like), then he's not forced to. Him offering to do it if people donate some money is fair enough, imo. It's his life, and his time. Radious is not your slave. You should be grateful he ever released anything. To sit there and is just pathetic, imo. Some people are seriously self-entitled and need a reality check.

If it was up to me I'd rather spend my free time with my loved ones in real life than working endless hours on a game I don't even like. And to not even get paid for thousands of hours of work, just because some people on the internet demand free products? Forget that. No, thank you. Besides, he said his other stuff is free, donations are optional. I feel the angry reaction his post got was dumb and will just encourage modders to quit the industry entirely. Then we'll all be stuck with the crappy vanilla games, which let's face it haven't been playable (apart from Attila + Shogun 2) since 2002.

CA should be grateful for the modding community too. Modders fixed their broken games every single time and made them playable, free of charge. CA should be thanking the modders for their efforts, which are often better than the actual paid design team CA employs full time. See Medieval 2 at release (a total travesty) compared to Broken Crescent mod, which was amazing.

When people get paid for work done, you're basically paying them for the time they put in, plus any costs incurred. Since Radious' work involves both, I think asking for money is both reasonable and fair. What it says in the EULA is irrelevant, imo. It does nothing to change the facts on the ground, which is someone putting in thousands of hours of work. You can either donate or not, but pretending that Radious has no right to even ask is neither moral nor just. It's his decision. If you force modders to not have any way of even receiving voluntary donations, that is unreasonable and unacceptable and THAT will be what kills modding, not the fact that someone dared to ask for a voluntary donation.

[Gigantus]

When people get paid for work done, you're basically paying them for the time they put in, plus any costs incurred. Since Radious' work involves both, I think asking for money is both reasonable and fair. What it says in the EULA is irrelevant, imo. It does nothing to change the facts on the ground, which is someone putting in thousands of hours of work. You can either donate or not, but pretending that Radious has no right to even ask is neither moral nor just. It's his decision. If you force modders to not have any way of even receiving voluntary donations, that is unreasonable and unacceptable and THAT will be what kills modding, not the fact that someone dared to ask for a voluntary donation.

The product of your labor doesn't belong to you, that's how relevant the EULA is. Asking for reimbursement for your time\efforts\funds spend while creating a product that isn't yours to start with it is a grey zone at best and therefore will not be permitted at TWC. Steam and Patreon are not bothered if the product you solicit funds for is legally yours or not as it not their responsibility to ascertain that.

TWC will be the first to add donate buttons to mods if CA\SEGA ever indicates that it is acceptable - but we are not holding our breath. Until then we will not permit an action that carries with it the possibility of legal action against the site.

Edit in matters 'not bothered': The link at the end is not for the faint of heart, it is however what every subscriber to Steam agrees to (and you thought the ToS was bad?). Quote from this page.

By submitting an item to the Steam Workshop or accepting a revenue allocation for an item, you agree to the Legal Agreement.

Extract from it:

You represent and warrant to us that you have sufficient rights in all User Generated Content to grant Valve and other affected parties the licenses described under A. and B. above or in any license terms specific to the applicable Workshop-Enabled App or Workshop page.

[Havie]

Keep in mind I am speaking as someone who has a pure passion for the modding work they do and with much love and respect for this site.

I don't understand how you could not allow free of will donations to be allowed on this site. The work we do is always released for free to the community and all we are trying to do is help one another. I don't see how it is a problem or crime If an author of a mod needs help or funding to make a project come to life for the community who free of will agree's to help make that dream a reality. No one here is selling mods or trying to make a profit.

Coming from a few ethics classes in college about IST, I can strongly say that CA or Sega will most likely never come at this site for any reason. In fact when discussing copy write laws, fan fiction is actually illegal, despite that, no company would ever sue those that write fan fiction. Its just bad for business. Imagine if J.K Rowling sued everyone that wrote any harry potter fan fiction, she would destroy her fan base. Same applies here, I dont think CA would ever dream of destroying their biggest community, especially over some mods for much older titles. Heck, Im modding Shogun2, we all know CA is long over that.
In the worst case scenario they would possibly send you some sort of cease and desist letter before taking any real legal action. In which case you would have plenty of time to ban donations on this site. You seem overly paranoid.

Thats just my 2 cents. I hope you strongly consider changing your mind on this as more freedom in donations could really fund much more amazing mods.

[Quintus Hortensius Hortalus]

The product of your labor doesn't belong to you, that's how relevant the EULA is. Asking for reimbursement for your time\efforts\funds spend while creating a product that isn't yours to start with it is a grey zone at best and therefore will not be permitted at TWC. Steam and Patreon are not bothered if the product you solicit funds for is legally yours or not as it not their responsibility to ascertain that.

TWC will be the first to add donate buttons to mods if CA\SEGA ever indicates that it is acceptable - but we are not holding our breath. Until then we will not permit an action that carries with it the possibility of legal action against the site.

Edit in matters 'not bothered': The link at the end is not for the faint of heart, it is however what every subscriber to Steam agrees to (and you thought the ToS was bad?). Quote from this page.

Sorry to intervene but according to the German EULA No. 5 - which I agreed to - this is wrong. You have to look at the specfic state in which the end user bought the game.
To summarize according to the German EULA I have the intellectual property of everything I create and have the intellectual property according to German copyright law and SEGA has only the right to use it in bounderies which are necessary for them.
Due the wording of the EULA I could even sell the rights on my intellectual property to a third person. Furthermore the wording could even violate German / EU costumer protection laws because it's hard to understand and not really clear what they shall get. In this case SEGA would get nothing from me.

Apart from this asking for money for something being stored in file types beloning to the game would violated the EULA. Asking for money to create a model which can be imported to TW game not.
Asking for money to create a mod is a bit of a "grey-zone" but I would agree that this would be a circumvention.

[NorseThing]

Sorry to intervene but according to the German EULA No. 5 - which I agreed to - this is wrong. You have to look at the specfic state in which the end user bought the game.
To summarize according to the German EULA I have the intellectual property of everything I create and have the intellectual property according to German copyright law and SEGA has only the right to use it in bounderies which are necessary for them.
Due the wording of the EULA I could even sell the rights on my intellectual property to a third person. Furthermore the wording could even violate German / EU costumer protection laws because it's hard to understand and not really clear what they shall get. In this case SEGA would get nothing from me.

Apart from this asking for money for something being stored in file types beloning to the game would violated the EULA. Asking for money to create a model which can be imported to TW game not.
Asking for money to create a mod is a bit of a "grey-zone" but I would agree that this would be a circumvention.

Of course the TWC site is USA based so it is the US law on end user licensing agreements that concerns TWC. Even wiki (I am not a lawyer, so this will have to do) states the reason companies (SEGA, for example) having it's EULA is probably due to US Copy Right Protections and using the EULA as a means end run around the copy protection to further protect the released work. Maybe you are correct about the German law. What you see or do not see in German law does not really apply here in the USA.

[Gigantus]

Correct, the server is located and registered in the US, hence US laws apply.

[Havie]

Correct, the server is located and registered in the US, hence US laws apply.

Hence they are never going to sue their biggest fans.

[♔atthias♔]

Keep in mind I am speaking as someone who has a pure passion for the modding work they do and with much love and respect for this site.

I don't understand how you could not allow free of will donations to be allowed on this site. The work we do is always released for free to the community and all we are trying to do is help one another. I don't see how it is a problem or crime If an author of a mod needs help or funding to make a project come to life for the community who free of will agree's to help make that dream a reality. No one here is selling mods or trying to make a profit.

Coming from a few ethics classes in college about IST, I can strongly say that CA or Sega will most likely never come at this site for any reason. In fact when discussing copy write laws, fan fiction is actually illegal, despite that, no company would ever sue those that write fan fiction. Its just bad for business. Imagine if J.K Rowling sued everyone that wrote any harry potter fan fiction, she would destroy her fan base. Same applies here, I dont think CA would ever dream of destroying their biggest community, especially over some mods for much older titles. Heck, Im modding Shogun2, we all know CA is long over that.
In the worst case scenario they would possibly send you some sort of cease and desist letter before taking any real legal action. In which case you would have plenty of time to ban donations on this site. You seem overly paranoid.

Thats just my 2 cents. I hope you strongly consider changing your mind on this as more freedom in donations could really fund much more amazing mods.

t
this inst specifically directed at you but at everyone in general

like I said I am not against donations the problem I am having however is radious charging me for updating his mods
which I don't approve of
instead of charging for it I would prefer radious abandons his mod for RTW2 if he doesn't want to do it for free which is his full right