Stopping stackspam

**Macilrille** · October 18, 2017, 11:12 PM

I know this may be more appropriate for the modding help thread. But I would like suggestions and discussion, and I believe we get that to a larger degree here.

I am playing again for the first time in a year. But I get fed up and loose the will to play by the endless stackspam. Fighting the same battles over and over is no fun at all, in fact it is boring. And it gets worse if you prefer to play according to Lore, not blitzing.

I am considering quadrupling unit cost for everyone, which will make stacks more rare and every unit precious, but which will not make the AI factions go broke by upkeep.

Will that be enough? And will it give an unfair advantage to factions with many starting Generals? Have you any better ideas?

**paleologos** · October 19, 2017, 03:27 AM

I think the AI gets those stacks as a "cheat-gift".
If that is the case, then increasing the costs of troops will make no difference.

**Ngugi** · October 19, 2017, 06:03 AM

Some few stacks are gifted (Last Stand-armies and one about the Barrack Event and so); MOS ought to be different due to its multiple submod-content, the Shadow-something feature that grant Mordor mumakil for example gives Mordor a stack every 20th turn IIRC.
Most of the stack spam derives from unchackled economies in my experience however.
Increasing cost is one way to counter this - but it is only efficient if the income of AI factions is also taken into account. There are scripts that are to ensure the AI do not go bankrupt, meaning that they never 'suffer' from recruiting hordes, whatever the price may be. Editing these scripts to grant the AI factions less money should hit at the heart of it. In DCI we for example dropped this for Harad completly, but they remain a power house based simply on their resources and safe strategic location. And our map has even less income generating settlements, so it should really work equally for MOS.
You could also decrease the King's Purse, that grant each faction (incl. your own) a bonus sum each turn by default.

**Macilrille** · October 20, 2017, 12:05 PM

This one?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

**Ngugi** · October 20, 2017, 12:33 PM

Will check when I get home; don't recognise that, either its a feature in MOS or I've not messed with those things recently enough.

I was thinking of a script that gave AI factions a boost if they fall into debt (and that looks diffrently), but if the mod have that as well as what you show above, that would explain a lot. o.0

**Ngugi** · October 20, 2017, 04:10 PM

Let's see.

1) TATW 3.2 do not utilize the Money Script (all that you showed us; I presume it was in earlier versions and has remained in MOS, but was removed in TATW).
So I would frankly propose you delete the entire Money-script.
The money are not needed, they add to the spam.

2A) What TATW do have is the Dept-script, and that is of interest to all TATW players.
In the first entry in the spoiler box england (Mordor) when AI, if their treasury is at -1000g or more, at turn start, get 5000g at their turn start.
All factions are given they same amounts, but a player could play around here.

As I mentioned earlier, for example Harad (spain) likely do not need any money added, or at least very llittle, since they have only one front usually and rich regions.
It's important to remember that good balance is about equity, not equality, as each faction has its own context.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Code:

;########################### MONEY SCRIPT ##############################
;############################ MONEY DEPT ###############################


    monitor_event PreFactionTurnStart FactionType england
        and IsFactionAIControlled
        and Treasury < -1000
        
            add_money england 5000
        
    end_monitor


    monitor_event PreFactionTurnStart FactionType france
        and IsFactionAIControlled
        and Treasury < -1000
        
            add_money france 5000
        
    end_monitor


    monitor_event PreFactionTurnStart FactionType hre
        and IsFactionAIControlled
        and Treasury < -1000
        
            add_money hre 5000
        
    end_monitor


    monitor_event PreFactionTurnStart FactionType portugal
        and IsFactionAIControlled
        and Treasury < -1000
        
            add_money portugal 5000
        
    end_monitor


    monitor_event PreFactionTurnStart FactionType spain
        and IsFactionAIControlled
        and Treasury < -1000
        
            add_money spain 5000
        
    end_monitor


    monitor_event PreFactionTurnStart FactionType venice
        and IsFactionAIControlled
        and Treasury < -1000
        
            add_money venice 5000
        
    end_monitor


    monitor_event PreFactionTurnStart FactionType sicily
        and IsFactionAIControlled
        and Treasury < -1000
        
            add_money sicily 5000
        
    end_monitor


    monitor_event PreFactionTurnStart FactionType milan
        and IsFactionAIControlled
        and Treasury < -1000
        
            add_money milan 5000
        
    end_monitor


    monitor_event PreFactionTurnStart FactionType scotland
        and IsFactionAIControlled
        and Treasury < -1000
        
            add_money scotland 5000
        
    end_monitor


    monitor_event PreFactionTurnStart FactionType moors
        and IsFactionAIControlled
        and Treasury < -1000
        
            add_money moors 5000
        
    end_monitor


    monitor_event PreFactionTurnStart FactionType turks
        and IsFactionAIControlled
        and Treasury < -1000
        
            add_money turks 5000
        
    end_monitor


    monitor_event PreFactionTurnStart FactionType egypt
        and IsFactionAIControlled
        and Treasury < -1000
        
            add_money egypt 5000
        
    end_monitor


    monitor_event PreFactionTurnStart FactionType mongols
        and IsFactionAIControlled
        and Treasury < -1000
        
            add_money mongols 5000
        
    end_monitor

(...)

2B) Now, in your case MOS has a Debt-script of it's own instead of the vanilla: "Carl - The Taxman", made by Fred Putz who was a skilled scripter. CTT is is over 1400 lines long so I can frankly say I have no clue what it does how, when or on what conditions.
Bonus money when at debt, dynamic changes to the kings purse and what not...
I'm not compitent enough to say what to do with it. I would propse you begin to test with leaving it as it is, and if the factiosn are still hording, then test to replace all of it with TATW's script.

3) Last the Kings Purse, that each faction has settled in descr_strat.txt

Code:

;#################################################################
;##########################  MORDOR  ############################# 15600
;################################################################# 
faction    england, balanced smith
ai_label         evil
denari    14000
denari_kings_purse    4200
settlement castle

TATW players can play with this as they please, making a faction bonus greater or lower.

As for MOS, since CTT affects it, I would not suggest you edit it ATM.

**Macilrille** · October 21, 2017, 12:43 AM

Ah I see. CTT is just below the Money Script in MOS, it steals 10000 gold if the faction has above 10000 gold.

This thread is proving useful to all- I hope- thanks Ngugi, you are a treasure (and a nice guy, I miss Elendil so; the mighty viking has wept like a child).

Edit, oh... CTT is damn great, look here:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

For all factions

**Ngugi** · October 21, 2017, 06:23 AM

Happy to help

Aye, a gem among ferrets he was, and thus rightly you should, he deserves it

Yeah, CTT is an advanced piece of work, I just saw the 1400 lines and gave up haha, as I just had got home from a 12h stint at work hehe. But if you checks it out I'm sure its not only good but may be a lot of handy tweaks you can apply to it as you goes along

**alreadyded** · October 27, 2017, 11:03 AM

You are better off lowering replenishment rates for barracks upgrades, or removing the increases so it is always the same. Building a bigger barracks doesn't give you a larger number of troops that can be trained in reality or lore (more recruitment slots would fit, replen increases should be tied to settlement/pop size if anything) so editing those will reduce stack spam and increase reality/lore. Adding more buildings and a whole bunch of various other things are good too, so the player and AI have something to do other than spam units after they built the few things they can. I did a great many things but the changes to replen and buildings probably matter the most.

Also, due to all the money boost scripts for the AI increasing unit costs is not recommended to 'control' the situation. These AI factions will still be able to spam (they get free money and have nothing else to spend it on) and will have an even larger advantage over the player. It will make it noticeably worse I would think.

To control the money situation better you could make better money scripts. i.e. give england 500 when it is -500 (just keeps them from going in-debt they don't profit), and -1000 when +30k in treasury, or something like that. Of course you could do layers of it but that really isn't necessary if the CAI is worth anything. If the CAI sucks then that is the problem and the stack spam was most likely added in there to compensate for it. So reducing stack spam will just make the game easier if that is the case.

Edit; just looked at the MOS credits and they are using one file from my CAI with Firefreak's new map, that is not good, the same as DAC does actually

. My CAI was not made for that new map (and just using one file from it isn't great either), and that new map just doesn't take many M2TW gameplay things into consideration (think of a checkerboard for the ideal M2TW strat map; equal size, shape, distribution of regions with factions spread apart equally are better). So I would ditch the map or find a new CAI file if your are playing MOS or DAC. MOS does rely on that stack spam to be difficult from what I have heard, I haven't played it myself.

Edit2; I also increased recruitment times for all archers, cavalry, and tier 2 and up infantry. This will help with stack spam, though I suppose it only adds to reality/lore to a great extent when using a 12 turns per year script like I do. With a 4 tpy script it would be a bit dumb/unrealistic since each increase is 3 months longer.

Changing any one thing will mean needing to re-balance one or more other things though... even just lowering replen rates will lead to factions having more money and nothing more to do with it, and less units less often to do anything. M2TW is just a shallow game as is, you have to add more depth, more things to do if you want to remove stuff like stack spam which is there as a direct result of the lack of depth. Even if it isn't intentionally added to increase difficulty it is only a matter of time before recruiting units is all there is left to do, even sooner for the AI with all the boosts they get. In vanilla you are better off giving a settlement to the AI to let them develop it and grow the pop way faster than you can due to certain AI boosts, maybe MOS and DAC changed that though.

**Macilrille** · October 30, 2017, 03:47 AM

Oh AD... Let us talk history, so I can confuse you equally ;-)

What I am trying to say is that only a modder get all you are writing. I sort of get the gist of some of it, but I have no modding experience and thus at many points in your reply think; "Dafuq is he writing about?".

For nubs like me, it has to be simple solutions.

I have tested a Gondor MOS 1.6 + RK game till turn 150-ish with Ngugi's suggestion. Harad and Mordor and Rhün still stackspam, if to a lesser extent. From turn 15 - 50 they had 4- 8 full-ish stacks, 50- 100 they had 10- 15, 100+ they have 15- 20.

So it has helped a bit, but not removed the problem.

Personally I like a game where you have to save up to get a fullstack, both historically and in all incarnations of Middle-earth, everybody had to gather resources and build up for years to launch a major offensive with a large army. I feel a game where you and the AI both treasure each and every good unit and each and every half-stack because it is a major investment, and you have to save up for a year to build an Olog Hai or Swan Knight, is desirable- forcing you to make hard choices and care for your armies.

And I take it, AD is saying; "There is no easy fix".

**alreadyded** · October 30, 2017, 12:53 PM

The replenishment rates are the easiest fix I think, just ignore everything else I said if you want easy, the only downside is less to do because of less to recruit less often. But that will make battles much more meaningful all on its own and it is saved game compatible.

i.e. a unit replenishes faster with each recruitment building upgrade (faster replen is part of the upgrade), simply make it so the replen does not become faster and stays the same (it doesn't make sense that it would increase anyway) and there will always be less of them. Otherwise the stack spam will increase as recruitment buildings get upgraded, and the AI can do it faster due to bonuses in most mods.

However, MOS may give the AI bonuses to replen intentionally to add to difficulty, if that is the case then there is no easy fix since you will have to add in more difficulty elsewhere first (which is what I was discussing in the post above). The alternative is adding in other stuff to do than just recruit units after all buildings are built, this will indirectly help the issue.

**Macilrille** · October 30, 2017, 04:29 PM

Thank you. I will probably try that.

**Macilrille** · November 02, 2017, 11:50 AM

Where do I change the replenishment rate again?

Further, you seem to have given this much thought AD: would it alliviate the problem to double building time and price for buildings and triple it for units? That should help the problem of the AI running out of buildings and starting to spam units.

**alreadyded** · November 02, 2017, 01:24 PM

It would but then they would not be worth the time/cost, balance would go crazy if you boosted the bonuses to make them worth it, and most importantly the game would be boring from all the waiting. Increasing all building and recruitment times by 1 or 2 turns may be OK though, but still less fun. Adding more stuff is going to be required though not just dragging out stuff already in there, or at least using stuff MOS has already to a greater degree. Any scripts that allow the player/AI to spend money can be increased instead of building/recruitment times for example.

Another thing is setting a max treasury. If all factions can only save up say 20k then that may help calm down stack spam. Extremely simple scripts are used for this.

Building stuff and unit replen are handled in export_descr_buildings.txt.

I have removed and added much to this game to get it how I want it but I am not at all familiar with MOS so whether this stuff will overpower what MOS added I don't know. Even vanilla TATW has scripts and such that essentially force stackspam and MOS may have way more stuff on top of it. If so you will have to do the same I did, remove and add much. You could play my mod but I assume anyone that is a fan of MOS would not like my mod, it sounds like you want something in-between the two. I don't think, based on what I have read of other people's opinions, that MOS will still be MOS without the stackspam.

**Macilrille** · November 03, 2017, 04:28 AM

Thank you for the enlightening responses. There are many things in MOS I like and want to play, and though I admire your initiative independence, daring and confidence in saying "F U" to those who said that the things you wanted to do were impossible, and then doing them, and even like you for them; there are things in what I saw in your mod a year ago that I am not so keen on sadly. So maybe you are right, maybe it is something in-between I want.

There is one thing I want a LOT, and that is a more Lore-friendly Ring Quest. Along the lines of this:
1. Ring is found
2. Sneak a spy into the settlement in question and have him spend two turns there - he acquires the Ring
3. This makes the Nazgûl spawn as assassins trying to hunt down that spy and kill him to gain the Ring, and makes an assassin named Gollum spawn to hunt whoever carries the Ring.
4. When the spy gets within a certain range of Mordor, this, and this only, makes the Nazgûl spawn as Generals for Mordor and launch invasion on Minas Tirith.
5. As they cross the Anduin, Aragorn spawns in Rohan and can gain the Army of The Dead plus cheap mercenaries (signifying rallying the locals) in all Gondorian provinces.
6. The spy must survive and make his way to Sammath Naur to collapse Mordor.

But that is another matter unrelated to stackspam.

**alreadyded** · November 03, 2017, 04:32 PM

The easiest approach, without adding in new content, would be the unit replenishment and limiting max treasury. That should maintain the balance and feel but drag it out a bit without being boring. But if you win heroic victory after heroic victory in MOS then that will just make the game way too easy for the player, which means you will have to add more stackspam to fix it easily

.

You could remove invasions to increase player difficulty after reducing stackspam, that may work. These screw with the AI's ability to do what they should in their own interests and weakens them, some of that stackspam was probably added to compensate for this. This could wreck the balance of MOS in a lot ways though and if you like invasions then removing them will make the game less fun for you, and fun is the point. One of the first things I did when I started modding the campaign was remove invasions to help address the need for stackspam, which allowed me to remove all the TATW scripts and other content (insane AI bonuses that lead to replen boosts and those sorts of things) that MOS is apparently still using (and possibly even more) that promote stackspam.

**Macilrille** · November 04, 2017, 12:48 AM

I see. I had another idea to increase difficulty. I think we may have used something like this in some way to increase difficulty in Europa Barbarorum (I am uncertain as I only made units and such).

A script testing difficulty and automatically adding the highest level of armourer building to AI settlements. Thus making the game more difficult without the stackspam. Would that be possible for a modder (not me, but as a general idea for modders)?

Now where do I change replenishment rates?

**♔atthias♔** · November 04, 2017, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by Macilrille

I see. I had another idea to increase difficulty. I think we may have used something like this in some way to increase difficulty in Europa Barbarorum (I am uncertain as I only made units and such).

A script testing difficulty and automatically adding the highest level of armourer building to AI settlements. Thus making the game more difficult without the stackspam. Would that be possible for a modder (not me, but as a general idea for modders)?

Now where do I change replenishment rates?

in the EDB
it will be the lines like
mordor orc archers 1 0 1 1

LAST WARING VERY IMPORTANT
edit ONLY the lines under this line

;AI stack spam-----------------------------------------------------

because the lines above are player only they will not work for the AI [in 1.7 at least might be different in 1.6.2]

**alreadyded** · November 04, 2017, 02:01 PM

It is better to use many smaller bonuses that add up without being noticeable on their own rather than one big noticeable one, then use scripts to scale it back on easier difficulties. More importantly, once the player gets the best armor it isn't a bonus anymore (and if archers are OP armor will not be much of a bonus) so you should pick something else or just use pre-existing AI only traits and increase stuff to give AI bonuses. Don't give them more bonuses that increase income, pop growth, etc.. Command, Line of Sight, Morale, Law, and stuff like that is good.

There is of course the huge General unit problem of the player just putting them in one stack making any mod way too easy, I fixed this in many ways and blended it into difficulty scripts. Basically you have to make all generals actually make enough money as governor to make it too expensive to put them all in one stack. Maybe there are other ways though but that one worked for me.

**Sonterp** · November 24, 2017, 01:58 PM

My main issue isn't the stackspam per say, but the fact that Mordor is disproportionately OP in autoresolve, forcing you to fight EVERY battle with them on the map, even if their units crumble like flies.

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