DCI: Last Alliance - Open Beta released, NEW: 10 October 2020 new patch released, contains Ents - Wolves - Spiders crashes fix! (and more)

[Tar-Falassion]

Well, I personally don't think that Sauron would openly forbid BNs from celebrating the glorious king who "awakened" them to the worship of the Dark - in my view Sauron could even have used that at his advantage.
Let me explain myself :

I always wondered at the "faithfulness" and devotion that the Black Numenoreans displayed to Sauron after the Akallabêth, since the sundering of Numenor was an ostensible punishment from the Valar for Numenorean corruption and forsaking of their legacy. How could this not persuade them to turn away from a High Priest that obviously led their ruler, and their realm, straight to disaster ? There had to be an excellent explanation for that not to happen, and for them to keep believing in Sauron for the entire Third Age.

Plus as evil as they were, I doubt that Black Nums would have forgotten their Numenorean identity just for the sake of their Dark Religion. And Sauron would have been in quite a delicate position forcing them to let their memories of Pharazôn fade away, since he represented the apex of Numenorean power and wealth.

No, I always envisioned Sauron manipulating the events of Akallabêth in the minds of the Black Nums, just in the same manner that he tricked them into believing that Middle Earth was flat.

Therefore I imagined that in the tenets of the Melkorite Numenoreans, they dodged the problem of the Akallabêth by teaching that Ar-Pharazôn had in fact been victorious, and vanquished the malicious Valar once and for all, that Ar-Pharazôn now ruled the Undying Lands and had become a God itself, and that those faithful to Melkor would be resurrected in Aman, where they would live in immortal splendour. Because of Ar-Pharazôn victory the Island of Numenor was detached from this world and made part of the Undying Lands, like Tol Eresseä.

Such a manoeuvre would have given the remaining Black Numenoreans pride and hope in their exile, while keeping intact their devotion to the Dark Lord, under whose patronage Pharazôn was deified.
And it could be for that reason, that Pharazôn's pillar in the Haven of Umbar was never brought down even during the height of Black Numenorean dominance of the old fortress, and only when Sauron had returned and the Haven was no longer in the hands of true Black Nums, but Corsairs descended from Castamirioni intermixed with Haradrim was the monument destroyed.


(but that is only my interpretation of the BNs beliefs, I won't take offense if you don't like them )

[Rampante-Cid]

No sweat, we answer what we may, hehe.

1) No unit name will refere to Ar-Pharazon, no, because Sauron hated Númenor and Ar-Pharazon most of all.
That ties together with that there will be a Temple Guards-unit, yes, but it do not concern Melkor/Morgoth.
Hmm, easiest to make a little history lesson of this I guess.


When Sauron became the new Dark Lord, he implemented himself as a god, and himself only;

During the Second Age Sauron came to hate Númenor, for many real and perceived reasons.
When Ar-Pharazon came to Middle-earth with his host in 3261, he humiliated Sauron (naturally) and earned Sauron's personal hatred. Sauron did accept to have Numenoreans as servants (more sensible he was than his former master would been in such a situation), but Númenor's destruction and Ar-Pharazon's death was his big goal - otherwise he could had kept Númenor and Ar-Pharazon as his servants to use them to rule Middle-earth. That would been smart, but he did not because of his hatred.

As was seen later in the Third Age, even in Gondor that was a common view that Ar-Pharazon shamed the Dark Lord, and Sauron would accept no recognition of the old king:


While Sauron was in Númenor he started to preach the gospel of Melkor as we all know:

But it was not because Sauron led a religion to worship the former Dark Lord, but because it was the best way for himself to gain power. He could not call himself a god, because Ar-Pharazon had defeated him, but he could gain influence and power in the kingdom by acting as a prophet of 'another':

But even on Númenor, in time Sauron was happy to become the center of worship as a god himself.



The BNs were, we can guess, proud of Ar-Pharazon and the might of their people at their peak [of power], but I can not fathom Sauron to ever approve of them putting it on display, or brag with the name of his personal enemy.

Also, there will be a Temple Guard, the elite unit among BNs, but the religion of the evil factions is called 'Followers of Sauron' as they worship him, not Melkor, and the temples will refere to Sauron.


2) No, not in visuals. Their greater height is accounted for in unit stats, but we won't bother with small height differences that would require massive labour to fix for no actual gain

Ok, thanks for the history class man. Now it will be perfect if soon we would have a small teaser of the Black Numeronean units

Praise the Dark Lord Sauron muhahaha

[Ngugi]

@ Tar-Falassion
Interesting theory, I will say even when I do not join in on it.
I do not think for a moment the BNs lost their heritage, agreed, but I believe Sauron would dodge blame and responsibility for the known disaster and would come out with even greater influence from it.

An important factor would for sure be that the Númenóreans in Middle-earth probably ever had limited information about what went on at the isle, allowing Sauron to spread whatever verison he might like to his Dunedain subjects. But I do not think the fall of Númenor as a result of a disasterous attack would be unknown to them.
I think he put emphasis on how the evil Valar destroyed Numenor, so to follow their enemy, "our god", Sauron is good and proper. Who are the minions of the evil Valar? The accursed Elves. Who are the friends of the Elves and follow the Valar? Those traitors in Gondor and Arnor, treacherous to their king, their land and their own blood; anything people like them say, like that Sauron played part in the downfall, can not be trusted, of course.
Ar-Pharazon may in this be exhalted as a martyre, consiously ignored or blamed.
To exhalt him would have moral benefits. But also imply that the guy who could best Sauron (though Sauron probably would twist that history as much as he would, to be less a humiliation than active choice to go to Númenor to enlighten them, or something) still could not best the Valar, i.e. the Valar are greater than Sauron.
To ignore him, as in put focus not as much on the attack upon Valinor as on the "crime" of the Valar [assuming he kept up the lie that Erú was just a fabrication by the Valar to fool people] could do, even if it leave some questions.
To put the blame on poor leadership and thus the failiure of the attack on the king would more than anything rid Sauron from blame of the defeat, even without the need to blame the Númenórean army who may still be considered heroes, and thus appease both propaganda and Sauron's own feelings for Ar-Pharazon.
At end, any chosen thesis will be a matter of personal taste and artistic freedom. I myself find this provided line of logic, and where Ar-Pharazon is blamed, and thus perhaps with time ignored or at least not encouraged to be hailed, the more credible.


@ Rampante-Cid
Harad is by all accounts the last faction to be previewed.
ATM, to my memory [not counting captain and general models], both Hill-men of the North and Men of the Mountains have one unit left to finish, Rhûn Confederacy has one or two, Mordor one that is solved as soon as Harad is finished, while there are many units left for Harad still.
So, while the BNs will wait for a while, there should be some neat material to see in future previews until that point

[Rampante-Cid]

@ Tar-Falassion
Interesting theory, I will say even when I do not join in on it.
I do not think for a moment the BNs lost their heritage, agreed, but I believe Sauron would dodge blame and responsibility for the known disaster and would come out with even greater influence from it.

An important factor would for sure be that the Númenóreans in Middle-earth probably ever had limited information about what went on at the isle, allowing Sauron to spread whatever verison he might like to his Dunedain subjects. But I do not think the fall of Númenor as a result of a disasterous attack would be unknown to them.
I think he put emphasis on how the evil Valar destroyed Numenor, so to follow their enemy, "our god", Sauron is good and proper. Who are the minions of the evil Valar? The accursed Elves. Who are the friends of the Elves and follow the Valar? Those traitors in Gondor and Arnor, treacherous to their king, their land and their own blood; anything people like them say, like that Sauron played part in the downfall, can not be trusted, of course.
Ar-Pharazon may in this be exhalted as a martyre, consiously ignored or blamed.
To exhalt him would have moral benefits. But also imply that the guy who could best Sauron (though Sauron probably would twist that history as much as he would, to be less a humiliation than active choice to go to Númenor to enlighten them, or something) still could not best the Valar, i.e. the Valar are greater than Sauron.
To ignore him, as in put focus not as much on the attack upon Valinor as on the "crime" of the Valar [assuming he kept up the lie that Erú was just a fabrication by the Valar to fool people] could do, even if it leave some questions.
To put the blame on poor leadership and thus the failiure of the attack on the king would more than anything rid Sauron from blame of the defeat, even without the need to blame the Númenórean army who may still be considered heroes, and thus appease both propaganda and Sauron's own feelings for Ar-Pharazon.
At end, any chosen thesis will be a matter of personal taste and artistic freedom. I myself find this provided line of logic, and where Ar-Pharazon is blamed, and thus perhaps with time ignored or at least not encouraged to be hailed, the more credible.


@ Rampante-Cid
Harad is by all accounts the last faction to be previewed.
ATM, to my memory [not counting captain and general models], both Hill-men of the North and Men of the Mountains have one unit left to finish, Rhûn Confederacy has one or two, Mordor one that is solved as soon as Harad is finished, while there are many units left for Harad still.
So, while the BNs will wait for a while, there should be some neat material to see in future previews until that point

Well in that case I will wait to see the look of these black bastards seeing your another eye candies hahaha!

On other hand, as I interpret of your answer the Black Numenoreans of Umbar and another southern colonies will be part of the Harad faction, not? If so why in place of this you don´t include the Black Numenoreans as an independent faction called for example the "Heavens of Umbar" or something like the "King Men's Dominions"?

From my opinion of view this arregement would be the more accurate manner to represent the "Black Numenoreans" of Umbar in the submod for several reasons:

At this time of the history of the "Black Numenoreans", at leats of those who lived in Umbar and its neighboring territories and maybe other southern colonies of numenorean origin, were ruled for Herumor and Fuinir two stronger black numenorean lords that controlled the city and also some Haradrim tribes in the sorrounding territories to Umbar:

Two early Black Númenórean lords from the late Second Age were Herumor and Fuinur who desired power over men of other, lesser races, and they "rose to (great) power amongst the Haradrim", the peoples neighbouring Umbar. They likely shared Sauron's defeat at the hands of the Last Alliance of Elves and Men.
[9]

Source: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Black_Numenoreans

So at the begining of "War of the Last Alliance" the black numenoreans of Umbar were probably at the height of their power and influence but however they, again of course with my point of view, barely contolled the city of Umbar and its surrounding terriotories and maybe some old numenoreans colonies in the south but nowhere near all the inmense territory of Harad that probably at this time was governed by several warlords and petty kings only united in the fight against Gondor and the other Free Peoples of the Middle Earth by their fear to Sauron and his promises of riches and conquest. However the Haradrimd from their part neither had exercise any type of control over the Black Numenoreans of Umbar that at this time still had in high steem their "Race Purity" and tried to avoid mix their "superior blood" with that of the "barbarians" of the deserts and jungles.

However this situation changed after the defeat of Sauron in the War of the Last Alliance when the black numenoreans weakened after this great war began to accept some marriages and cultural exchanges with their haradrim neighbours:

The triumph of the Last Alliance marked the decline of the Black Númenórean race and the end of their racial superiority. They dwindled swiftly or became merged with the Middle Men.
[9]

Source: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Black_Numenoreans


"After the fall of sauron their race swiftly dwindled or became merged with the men of the Middle-earth...." - "Appendix A" of the Lord of the Rings

Source: http://legacy.owensboro.kctcs.edu/cr...of%20umbar.htm

But despite of this the Black Numenoreans of Umbar achieved to preserve rather of their military power and with this mantain the "statu quo" previous to the war. The result of this was a singular state whose parallelism in the real world would be the empire of Carthage: a great harbour city ruled by the progeny of its founders and inhabithed in a good part also by the progeny of the original colonists along some natives. While in the sorrounding territories and other minor colonies were inhabited by a mixed race formed by the progeny of the old colonists and the local population of the place.

Returning to the Middle Earth the Black Numenoreans could mantain this system for a millenium and with this their political independece of the rest of Harad, although they were allied with the haradrim overlords, and at same time that they continued their "eternal war" with Gondor using their powerful navy inherited of the glorious Ar Pharazon's fleet.

But again the situation changed when the gondorian forces captured Umbar in T.A. 933 ending the long lived black numenorean state. Even though the Black Numenoreans allied with the Haradrims could retake the city from the gondorian hands as late in T.A 1015. and so to resurrect for a brief time their state:

A Black Númenórean elite survived at least in Umbar for over a thousand years after Númenor's fall, maintaining much influence in Haradwaith. As late as Third Age 1015, for example, even after being exiled from their homeland for nearly a century, the lords that had been driven from Umbar led the Haradrim to retake Umbar.^[12]


Source: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Black_Numenoreans

Nevertheless shorthly thereafter they would loss again the control of the city with their overhealming defeat at hands of the king Ciryaher in T.A. 1050. Whit this defeat the black numenoreans finally merged in a great extent with their haradrim allies, probably this process had accelerated with the first loss of Umbar in T.A. 933, and after with the corsairs and renegades of Castamir's forces. Such that and at the times of the "Ring War" only survived a few families in Harad and maybe in Mordor.

Conclusion:

After to expose all this stuff, I think that the only reasonable manner to merge the Black Numenoreans and the Haradrim peoples would be create a faction called something like "The Alliance of Umbar and the Haramdrims" or the "Confederation of the Cities and Tribes of Haradwaith". It is said that the Black Numeroeans and the Haradrim tribes would form a kind of "confederation" instigated by the same Sauron for his war against the "Last Alliance" in which the black numenoreans Herumor and Fuinir would officiate as the leaders of both peoples: black numenoreans and the haradrim.

But this only my personal headcanon !

[Ngugi]

Hehe, the history of the Black Númenóreans was the topic that once put me on the path of becoming a lore scholar, and together with studies for this game I know the sources avilable well.

There will be only one faction, with Black Numenorean tyrants and elite units of either BNs or native men with BN outfit, and the faction is named Harad, because that is what the region and kingdom[s] was called.
We know many will initially have their view coloured by how they perceive Harad from the Third Age, but they will find that is faulty. This Harad is not the same, no more than say IRL ancient Iberia would be the same as late medieval Iberia.
Harad of the Second Age is a Black Númenórean dominion with Haradrim subjects, it's not a Haradrim kingdom having some new BN units to play with.
You have partly quoted the best description of the situation Tolkien ever provided us, already:

Now Sauron prepared war against the Eldar and the Men of Westernesse, and the fires of the Mountain were wakened again. Wherefore seeing the smoke of Orodruin from afar, and perceiving that Sauron had returned, the Númenóreans named that mountain anew Amon Amarth, which is Mount Doom. And Sauron gathered to him great strength of his servants out of the east and the south; and among them were not a few of the high race of Númenor. For in the days of the sojourn of Sauron in that land the hearts of well nigh all its people had been turned towards darkness. Therefore many of those who sailed east in that time and made fortresses and dwellings upon the coasts were already bent to his will, and they served him still gladly in Middle-earth. But because of the power of Gil-galad these renegades, lords both mighty and evil, for the most part took up their abodes in the southlands far away; yet two there were, Herumor and Fuinur, who rose to power among the Haradrim, a great and cruel people that dwelt in the wide lands south of Mordor beyond the mouths of Anduin.
- Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

The Haradrim were no allies of the BNs, they were subjects. The King's Men set up their colonies to get dominion over natives and collect their wealth, not be their buddies.

Thus it came to pass in that time that the Númenóreans first made great settlements upon the west shores of the ancient lands; for their own land seemed to them shrunken, and they had no rest or content therein, and they desired now wealth and dominion in Middle-earth, since the West was denied.
Great harbours and strong towers they made, and there many of them took up their abode; but they appeared now rather as lords and masters and gatherers of tribute than as helpers and teachers. And the great ships of the Númenóreans were borne east on the winds and returned ever laden, and the power and majesty of their kings were increased; and they drank and they feasted and they clad themselves in silver and gold.
- Akallabeth

And as seen this hierarchy with the BNs as lords was still in practice at the end of the Age and into the Third - and I doubt the BNs started to be nice to their minions because both worshipped Sauron. In fact we we know that the King's Men behaved worse once they took Sauron for lord (see next quote).
Presumably the evil Dunedain were rather hated by the natives they became tyrants over, especially after the last days of Númenor:

And they hunted the men of Middle-earth and took their goods and enslaved them, and many they slew cruelly upon their altars. For they built in their fortresses temples and great tombs in those days; and men feared them, and the memory of the kindly kings of the ancient days faded from the world and was darkened by many a tale of dread.
- Akallabeth

Umbar is the capital, because, it is a BN stronghold and- lo and behold, haha, as this seems sometimes confused for some reason - the city is in Harad; on Harad's coast. ^^

The existance of other BN kingdoms in the further South [and East] do indirectly play in, as it's said that the BN units that Harad can recruit are mustered from Dunedain from both Harad and those unknown far away kingdoms, because as a rule I do not think many colonies of the King's Men ever held a great Numenorean population (in the light of their purpose), and to rally them would match what the initial quote above describe.

[Tar-Falassion]

Then a good idea would be to name the faction "Black Dominion of Harad", or sth like that, to ensure that it is well identified with their Black Numenorean overlords

Plus, an EXCELLENT idea for this faction of the submod (unless it is too late for that) would be to include one of the features of Westeros Total War, i.e. the "Bloodline Purity" thingy, that makes the player want to not adopt generals too often (at all) because of family bloodline ancillaries that give massive bonus to Command, Respect, Public Order, etc.

I think micro-managing the Black Numenorean bloodlines would give a new depth to the gameplay of this specific faction ! Avoiding to promote a Haradrim as general because there is a greater chance he'll go rebel is something I could totally enjoy ! And it would very well represesent the Black Nums' feeling of superiority on the Haradrim !

And actually you could also implement this for the Numenorean Realms-in-Exile, to make sure that the Line of Elendil remains pure from Middle-Men meddling

(but then again I might raise my hopes too high, we're quite close from the release ^^' )

[♔atthias♔]

helllo DCILA team
I have 2 suggestions
1 to bring more varity in the dwarven rosters give the dwarven nogrod raiders a secondary weapon so they are like gondors perlagir marines in vanila TATW
2 I cannnot made screenshot of it but if possible try to use DACs cheverons and sword and schield icons [that the uint get when you upgrade their armour attack and XP] upon the uint cards I like them more than MTW2 vanila icons
greetings atthias

ngugi I hate it to do this but this is just in case you overlodked it
and I second Tar falasions idea
greetings atthias

[Hanny]

Re a name for the BN, apart from scatterd mentions in HOME etc, there is this from the letters.

There were evil Númenóreans: Sauronians, but they do not come into this story [The Lord of the Rings], except remotely; as the wicked Kings who had become Nazgûl or Ringwraiths.


The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, Edited by Humphrey Carpenter, Letter 156 to Robert Murray, SJ., 4 November 1952

Online this works nice http://www.thelandofshadow.com/mordo.../haradtext.htm

[Ngugi]

@ Tar-F
There'll be no blood line trait, because with the exception of two starting none-family generals (and unless you bribe some outsider) all generals, including all adopted or MotHed, are BNs too.
In models and in portraits and in names - there will be no non-Dunedain interction in your family tree, unless you instead work to to get it in, hehe. Just as with NK the captains of Harad are Dunedain too, solving that bit. As noted - this is [Harad of] the Second Age, not the Third
A bloodline trait would serve no purpose when all who marry are Numenoreans, in a tree of the players control, or there's some end results from it.

[Ngugi]

ngugi I hate it to do this but this is just in case you overlodked it
and I second Tar falasions idea
greetings atthias

I missed that Araval had not replied on both questions there; no, we will not make further amendments to the Khazad-dûm roster.

Re a name for the BN, apart from scatterd mentions in HOME etc, there is this from the letters.

There were evil Númenóreans: Sauronians, but they do not come into this story [The Lord of the Rings], except remotely; as the wicked Kings who had become Nazgûl or Ringwraiths.


The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, Edited by Humphrey Carpenter, Letter 156 to Robert Murray, SJ., 4 November 1952

Online this works nice http://www.thelandofshadow.com/mordo.../haradtext.htm

Yes, the "Sauronians" term is used twice in letter 156, however not elsewhere.
It is directly related to a term used in draft notes in HoME 7, "Sauronites", but it then referes to commoner men in Sauron's service of no given heritage, so I'm inclined to believe either would work as a lable for any men who follow or worship the Dark Lord.
Even if neither thus are in-world terms, it's from a straight aesthetic perspective that I have no intention to use them, as none of them sounds good to me.

[Rampante-Cid]

I missed that Araval had not replied on both questions there; no, we will not make further amendments to the Khazad-dûm roster.



Yes, the "Sauronians" term is used twice in letter 156, however not elsewhere.
It is directly related to a term used in draft notes in HoME 7, "Sauronites", but it then referes to commoner men in Sauron's service of no given heritage, so I'm inclined to believe either would work as a lable for any men who follow or worship the Dark Lord.
Even if neither thus are in-world terms, it's from a straight aesthetic perspective that I have no intention to use them, as none of them sounds good to me.

Wow hahaha Ngugi your knowledge about the "Things of Arda" overwhelming me. Have you think in to do a PhD Thesis about the "Black Numenorians"? Seriously I have found in internet thesis about the Tolkien world to obtain the title of doctor of Literature.

On other hand if you don't like the name "Sauronians" to refer to the followers of the "Sauron Religion" what term will be used in the submod ?

[Ngugi]

Thanks hehe, I've been honoured the title 'lore master' by others interested in lore and by fellow scholars, which I am glad for, while I often consider myself rather a nifty 'librerian' haha; as while I do not keep all in memory, I usually hold in memory what and where to find different information, if it's found in LotR, UT, Hobbit, Letters or the HoME-series, and thus quickly can bring it forth to a discussion

I can't find those names other than used at the specific times as IRL descriptive labels, that were not used 'in the world', and further likely apply to Men alone.
In DCI the religion name is, as mentioned, simply 'Followers of Sauron'.

[Gratzy2]

alot of numenoreans were scared of death aswell and still believed that following sauron would somehow grant them immortality, which is why they despised the elves

[Hanny]

Yes, the "Sauronians" term is used twice in letter 156, however not elsewhere.

Here is the other refernce, Letter #156: And yes it is used elshwhere to give us the origin of the 3 Nazgul comming from Sauronians.


"So ended Númenor-Atlantis and all its glory. But in a kind of Noachian situation the small party of the Faithful in Númenor, who had refused to take part in the rebellion (though many of them had been sacrificed in the Temple by the Sauronians) escaped in Nine Ships (Vol. I. 379, II. 202) under the leadership of Elendil (=Ælfwine, Elf-friend) and his sons Isildur and Anárion "…


Both references explicitly refer to Numenorians in the service/under the sway of Sauron, and being the term JRRT prefers to call that faction of Numenorians. ie "There were evil Númenóreans: Sauronians"/"though many of them had been sacrificed in the Temple by the Sauronians" both refer to a Numenorian faction under the control of Sauron.


Here is another reference "There were evil Númenóreans: Sauronians, but they do not come into this story, except remotely; as the wicked Kings who had become Nazgûl or Ringwraiths"


This is JRRT giving us the term he wanted to use to refer to that faction. He goes on to tell us how they were different in letters 131
"A new religion, and worship of the Dark, with its temple under Sauron arises. The Faithful are persecuted and sacrificed. The Númenóreans carry their evil also to Middle-earth and there become cruel and wicked lords of necromancy, slaying and tormenting men; and the old legends are overlaid with dark tales of horror"


And Sauron gathered to him great strength of his servants out of the east and the south; and among them were not a few of the high race of Númenor. For in the days of the sojourn of Sauron in that land the hearts of well nigh all its people had been turned towards darkness. Therefore many of those who sailed east in that time and made fortresses and dwellings upon the coasts were already bent to his will, and they served him still gladly in Middle-earth. But because of the power of Gil-galad these renegades, lords both mighty and evil, for the most part took up their abodes in the southlands far away....


The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age


Also in Unfinished Tales there is this:-


“South” is thus a vague term, and although before its downfall Men of Númenor had explored the coasts of Middle-earth far southward, their settlements beyond Umbar had been absorbed, or being made by men already in Númenor corrupted by Sauron had become hostile and parts of Sauron’s dominions. But the southern regions in touch with Gondor (and called by men of Gondor simply Harad “South”, Near or Far) were probably both more convertible to the “Resistance,” and also places where Sauron was most busy in the Third Age, since it was a source to him of man-power most readily used against Gondor. Into these regions Gandalf may well have journeyed in the earlier days of his labours.

It is directly related to a term used in draft notes in HoME 7, "Sauronites", but it then referes to commoner men in Sauron's service of no given heritage, so I'm inclined to believe either would work as a lable for any men who follow or worship the Dark Lord.

All who follow Sauron are "Sauronians, not all "Sauronians are Black Numenorians, hence the authors use of the specific terms, all evil Numenorians were Sauronians.


However;- The great cape and land-locked firth of Umbar had been Numenorean land since days of old; but it was a stronghold of the King`s Men, who were afterwards called the Black Numenoreans, corrupted by Sauron,and who hated above all the followers of Elendil - Appendix A, The Return of the King


The Kings men were the Sauronians, and were called Black Numneorians by their enemies, the faithful. ( kinda like using Geronimo for the Appache leader rather his name.

Even if neither thus are in-world terms, it's from a straight aesthetic perspective that I have no intention to use them, as none of them sounds good to me.

They sounded good to the author and it is exactly the term he used. What you do not like aestheticly, is immaterial compared to JRRT in many instances instances telling the reader who the Black Numenorians were, where they came from, and what they were called, where the Nazgul came from, and what the faction they all comprised was termed.

On the plus side, is only text eddittting, if anyone is concerned enough to get it right, and Followers of Sauron is perfecly good enough in any event.

[Gratzy2]

either way black numenoreans are superior to elendili followers, imposters to the throne!

[Withwnar]

@Hanny
If you're suggesting that their religion (culture) should be "Sauronians" instead of "Followers of Sauron" then it must be so for all catholic factions, including Mordor and OotMM. Which is at odds with...

I'm inclined to believe either would work as a lable for any men who follow or worship the Dark Lord.

[Ngugi]

@ Hanny
As I said, the word "Sauronians" is used only in letter 156, twice, once in the letter and once in the letter's footnotes.
For a moment I thought you actually found another occurance of it but your two quotes simply illustrate what I said, though you skipped to give the source that both come from letter 156, making it seem like they come from different sources

The rest of BN quotes you bring up are naturally already known and taken into account.

However, the only Sauronians we know about are the Black Númenóreans; if it strictly speaking can apply to others is merely a speculation.

They sounded good to the author and it is exactly the term he used. What you do not like aestheticly, is immaterial compared to JRRT in many instances instances telling the reader who the Black Numenorians were, where they came from, and what they were called, where the Nazgul came from, and what the faction they all comprised was termed.

I provide the player what JRR did and intendeded to tell his readers from his legendarium writings, and I use the terminology given by those sources.
That I chose to not apply a term used in a personal letter to a reader, that is a draft that was not sent (do we even know if the term was used in the letter that JRR actually sent?), and was never used again, is of no consequence. We do not deny Tolkien used it once, we do not make up any fan fiction name instead of the term, we just will not make use of that excessive term in this game.

I will give you a chance to grasp what this is about.
Do you know how many times Tolkien use the terms monarch, monarchs or monarchy in The Hobbit, LotR, UT, Silmarillion or any of the HoME books? None.
Yet in letter 244, also a draft, he describe "A Númenórean King was monarch, with the power of unquestioned decision in debate;" [Tolkien's italics].
Why is that? Should we start to call the king of Númenor for monarch in our texts, because that word was used once? How many time did Tolkien use the terms monarch in The Hobbit, LotR, UT, Silmarillion or any of the HoME books again? Oh, none*. Right.
In his letters JRR is having a conversation, where he tries to explain and describe settings, facts and events in manners and with words that the other part, who lack his own insights and knowledge, will understand and take in. Tolkien obviously never intended to see the word monarch in use in his legendarium, otherwise he would used it when writing his stories, at least once, but he do use it to explain his world to an uninitiated reader.
Therefor we will not use the term monarch, because that would be, if not strictly speaking wrong, so at least improper from the legendarium texts that have precedence.
Same goes for "Sauronians".


*Properly he do use the word 'monarchs' in HoME 9, The Notion Club Letters, but since that has nothing to do with Tolkien's legendarium but real historical kings, it's irrelevant.

[Hanny]

@ Hanny
As I said, the word "Sauronians" is used only in letter 156, twice, once in the letter and once in the letter's footnotes.
For a moment I thought you actually found another occurance of it but your two quotes simply illustrate what I said, though you skipped to give the source that both come from letter 156, making it seem like they come from different sources

It is the fullest acount of what the faction of Sauron was called, and your reading skills are not very good if you arrived at that conclusion.

The rest of BN quotes you bring up are naturally already known and taken into account.

Except they conform to JRRT use of Sauronians, and not your asumption.

However, the only Sauronians we know about are the Black Númenóreans; if it strictly speaking can apply to others is merely a speculation.

Yes that is your asumption, JRRT otoh is quite clear the kings Men Faction as oposed to the Faithfull were termed Sauronians, and that only latter will they be termed Black Numenorians.

I provide the player what JRR did and intendeded to tell his readers from his legendarium writings, and I use the terminology given by those sources.
That I chose to not apply a term used in a personal letter to a reader, that is a draft that was not sent (do we even know if the term was used in the letter that JRR actually sent?), and was never used again, is of no consequence. We do not deny Tolkien used it once, we do not make up any fan fiction name instead of the term, we just will not make use of that excessive term in this game.

Sadly Followers of Sauron is not a term used by JRRT, so your logic is rather flawed, besides you already claimed not to like how it sounds as your reason.

I will give you a chance to grasp what this is about.
Do you know how many times Tolkien use the terms monarch, monarchs or monarchy in The Hobbit, LotR, UT, Silmarillion or any of the HoME books? None.
Yet in letter 244, also a draft, he describe "A Númenórean King was monarch, with the power of unquestioned decision in debate;" [Tolkien's italics].

Ah the UZZi defense, sad to see you stoop so low. Btw nearly ever governemnt mentioned is all of the writtings of ME is describbing a Monarchy.

Why is that? Should we start to call the king of Númenor for monarch in our texts, because that word was used once? How many time did Tolkien use the terms monarch in The Hobbit, LotR, UT, Silmarillion or any of the HoME books again? Oh, none*. Right.
In his letters JRR is having a conversation, where he tries to explain and describe settings, facts and events in manners and with words that the other part, who lack his own insights and knowledge, will understand and take in. Tolkien obviously never intended to see the word monarch in use in his legendarium, otherwise he would used it when writing his stories, at least once, but he do use it to explain his world to an uninitiated reader.
Therefor we will not use the term monarch, because that would be, if not strictly speaking wrong, so at least improper from the legendarium texts that have precedence.
Same goes for "Sauronians".

Letter 244 is answering a question regarding divine right to rule and the role of the Stewards, ands touching on the right of rebellion against unjust dive rule.
A Númenórean King was monarch, with the power of unquestioned decision in debate; but he governed the realm with the frame of ancient law, of which he was administrator (and interpreter) but not the maker. In all debatable matters of importance domestic, or external, however, even Denethor had a Council, and at least listened to what the Lords of the Fiefs and the Captains of the Forces had to say. Aragorn re-established the Great Council of Gondor, and in that Faramir, who remained by inheritance the Steward(or representative of the King during his absence abroad, or sickness, or between his death and the accession of his heir) would [be] the chief counsellor.

BTW there were 3 female and 23 male Monarchs in Numenor, since JRRT tells us Numenor was a Monarchy, tells us the law is changed to allow the female line to become monarch, i find its common knowledge that Numenor was a Monarchy.

In fact most of ME is rulled over by Monarchs, as Tolkien explained how there were goverened, so anyone argueing that the term is not apporprate has simply lost the plot.

[Ngugi]

We don't speak about form of government when discussing monarchy Hanny, we speak terminology, don't confuse that or you're on another topic, which naturally is not much a debate.
In his stories and annals JRR do not use the term monarch, he use king, he don't use the term monarchy, he calls it kingdom. So we use the terms king and kingdom, not monarch of monarchy, even if that's the same form of goverment.
In his stories and annals JRR do not use the term Sauronians, he use the terms King's Men and Black Númenóreans, so they we'll use for our fallen Númenóreans. Based on my expressed perception on the letter I do not feel oblidged to consider it an inworld term, and while I based on that still could use it if desired, I do not consider it sounding good and thus will not. It has no impact whatsoever on how the Black Númenóreans are depicted in the game, because they meet the descriptions of Tolkien's stories and annals.


So let's be frank, we don't meet eye to eye on this topic, and I am not offended or concerned however low you consider me to fallen in my interpetations or evaluations, thus let's not waste each others time further. DCI will not use the term Sauronians, I am and remain confident and content in that decision.
When the game is out it will be free and welcome for any player to change the names and descriptions to their hearts desire, that's easy, or make a submod out of it, it's of no concern of mine.

[Rampante-Cid]

Hi Ngugi! I have a question about the unit roster: the Black Numenorians of Harad will can recruited war mumakils and the Easterlings will have access to some kind of Proto-Wainriders war chariots?