Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

[Coughdrop addict]

If any of them did come here and condemn the invasion they would quickly be traced by the FSB and jailed for 15 years.

Or just killed outright.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

You got it all wrong. You see, this big armed country invaded smaller neighbors out of fear of being invaded. It's all in self defense!

It does really worry me that we don't seem to have single Russian in this thread, living in Russia right now and just condemning invasion on foreign country. At best we have people dancing around.
What conclusion should be taken out of this?

This is really wacky understanding of patriotism, against wellbeing of own people.

Fact 1: Russia claims it is a great power
Fact 2: Russia claims to be threatened by Ukraine
Conclusion: Ukraine is a great power

Slava Ukraini!

As a side note, currently I’m condemning Russia while being located in Belarus, so close enough?

[Pinarius]

[Coughdrop addict]

2. When doing public polling in Russia, the polled Russian goes under the assumption it's not anonymous.

3. The unwanted answer(s) may get him or her, poled, but not in a good way.

This is true, and it really calls into question something the apologists like to parrot; that Putin is very popular in Russia. I suspect that Putin is "popular" in the same way he "wins" elections, both are easy when you can simply have anyone who says otherwise jailed or shot.

[Condottiere 40K]

To be fair, it's a lot more complex than I illustrated.

A lot of Russians both aspire to Western life style and resent that the West caused the implosion of the greatest and most powerful country that ever existed.

And I believe Gorbachev in Twenty Fourteen refuted that it was ever discussed or promised that NATO wouldn't expand eastwards.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

This is true, and it really calls into question something the apologists like to parrot; that Putin is very popular in Russia. I suspect that Putin is "popular" in the same way he "wins" elections, both are easy when you can simply have anyone who says otherwise jailed or shot.

Nah, Putin is popular in Russia. This is the result of propaganda and brainwashing.

[z3n]

Suspending reality for a moment... Even if NATO didn't expand, even thought it isn't a military alliance as such, chances are the EU umbrella most of these nations moved under would have provided them enough protection to prevent a foreign power from physically invading.

Failing that, again suspending reality for a moment... Even if they didn't ask to join NATO, there was nothing to stop some sort of very NATO friendly Visegrad (+) defence pact forming that would likely have had a similar interoperability with NATO as Sweden and Finland have.

So it's really all a bunch of fluff discussion. Again. If there wasn't a big armed country right there, literally invading it's neighbours every few years... going on about its desire to maintain zones of influence over sovereign neighbours... establishing puppet dependencies of varying kinds all over the place... etc etc... Then these countries likely wouldn't be worried about their defence.

If NATO didn't expand then they wouldn't have done so informally via the EU or other defensive pact, they mentioned that as another aspect. "NATO will not expand formally or informally".

[Ludicus]

Not long ago, Rachel Salzman didn’t want to miss the chance to complain about the BRICS, a “Russia invention”.Russia, BRICS, and the Disruption of Global Order

BRICS stands as one of Vladimir Putin's signature international accomplishments”. Russia's leadership in establishing the BRICS group (Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa) is emblematic of its desire to end US hegemony and rewrite the rules of the international system

I wonder if India,China and Brazil agree with that.
Brazil criticizes Russia sanctions over impact on fertilizer reserves.
Why is India standing with Putin's Russia?
asks Somdeep Sen, Associate Professor of International Development Studies at Roskilde University

India’s approach to the situation in Ukraine is hardly surprising Across the years, Russia and India routinely took similar stances and supported each other on contentious international issues.
In 1961, after India used its military to end Portuguese colonial sovereignty over Goa, Daman and Diu, for example, the US, the UK, France, and Turkey put forth a resolution condemning India and calling upon its government to withdraw its troops immediately. But the Soviet Union opposed the proposal.
(...) In light of this long history of strong diplomatic, military, cultural and economic ties, it is hardly surprising that the Indian government and the public at large, chose to stand with Russia.

Thank you US, UK and France for having tried to keep our colonial possessions in India.Too bad they didn't do the same for Angola or Mozambique (insert irony here)

In the middle east, Egypt is looking to regain its former role as a major regional player,Egypt avoids direct condemnation of Russia over Ukraine

Meanwhile, Scholz defends German decision not to supply heavy weapons to Kyiv.

Scholz is not the only senior German politician who is uneasy about acceding to such demands. Robert Habeck, the Green economy minister, said Germany had a responsibility “to not itself become a target” of Russian aggression. That might happen if it sent Ukraine big tanks or fighter jets, he said.
Senior Social Democrats have also come to Scholz’s defence. Rolf Mützenich, head of the SPD parliamentary group, said the demands being made by Hofreiter and other coalition politicians after their trip to Kyiv could have “far-reaching consequences for the security of our country and that of Nato”. Scholz also received backing over the weekend from Sigmar Gabriel, an SPD grandee and former foreign minister. “Leadership in Europe means being aware of the consequences of expanding this war,” he wrote in Der Spiegel.

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Russia invaded Ukraine, but that doesn't make Ukraine more democratic than Russia. When it comes to Zelensky's democratic behavior, Zelensky is an expert at suspending political parties in his country. It's a long list, and the fear of Russia never was a very convincing excuse. Is Zelensky's party crackdown his first mistake? | The Spectator

it is not a good look for a man who has been seen as the heroic symbol of freedom against tyranny

It includes all left-wing parties, Socialist Party, etc., no exception. On March 20, Zelensky has used Russia’s invasion to escalate its repression of the left, banning Ukrainian socialist parties and imprisoning left-wing activists. On the same day, Zelensky also signed a decree to seize control of all private media outlets, combining them into one state-controlled platform, with a “unified information policy”. And more than one year before Russia invaded Ukraine (March last year), Zelensky shut down several TV channels that criticized his government, and arrested opposition politicians. In 2015, Ukraine suspended all communist parties, under the “decommunization” laws. In May 2014, some 1,000 Ukrainian nazis, surrounded, stormed, and burned the House of Trade Unions in Odessa,Ukrainian rightists burn alive 39 at Odessa union building

Many of those who attacked and burned the building wore swastikas and other fascist insignias...armed with bats, shields, and metal chains and that the people inside the union hall had run there for protection from them. After the attack by the rightists streets around the trade union headquarters were reportedly stained with the blood of those who had jumped from windows to escape the flames. Women and children were reported to be among those burned alive after initial rounds of shots and Molotov cocktails were thrown into the building by the right wingers. Police said that many of the victims at the House of Trade Unions had choked to death before burning up. The majority of the victims were found lying dead on the floors but some had jumped from windows, according to police.As the union hall was engulfed in flames, photos posted on Twitter showed people hanging out of windows and sitting on windowsills where they appeared to be preparing to jump.The videos and photos showed Ukrainian riot police standing there doing nothing to stop or prevent the violence. The Ukrainian police said they could do nothing because they were “unarmed"

The Guardian admitted this in a 2015 article titled “Ukraine bans Soviet symbols and criminalizes sympathy for communism-The Guardian

the legislation has been roundly condemned by academics and human rights organizations, as well as Ukrainian activists. In an open letter after the laws on independence fighters and communist symbols were passed by parliament, 70 scholars and experts on Ukraine from around the world called on president Petro Poroshenko not to sign them, arguing that their content contradicts the right to freedom of speech.

The letter read: “Not only would it be a crime to question the legitimacy of an organization [the UPA] that slaughtered tens of thousands of Poles in one of the most heinous acts of ethnic cleansing in the history of Ukraine, but also it would exempt from criticism the OUN, one of the most extreme political groups in western Ukraine between the wars, and one which collaborated with Nazi Germany at the outset of the Soviet invasion in 1941. It also took part in anti-Jewish pogroms in Ukraine.”
“The main danger of these laws is the movement of the political discourse to the right and the violence of the far right against leftwing activists,” “It’s a further step toward the legitimization of these things – conservatism and violence against leftists – which have been growing for the past three to four years.”

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Zelensky, after a virtually tour of the most important capitals of the western world, has finally reached the westernmost tip of Europe. The invitation, proposed by the PAN (Greens) party, was approved by an Assembly majority this Wednesday, with the PCP being the only party to vote against. Zelensky will make today a speech to the Parliament, four days before the celebration of the Freedom Day (25 April) in this country. If I were Zelensky's advisor, I would tell him to focus on the theme of patriotic resistance to foreign invasions. On that basis, he has my support. (The US/NATO is not interested in hearing about peace, but I hope Ukraine’s neutrality will continue to feature in the Russo-Ukrainian peace talks. On a side note,let’s keep in mind that War in Ukraine is a 'gold rush' for Western arms makers)

I also hope Zelensky resists the temptation to mention or praise the April Revolution. The political freedom here allows the existence of parties from the extreme right to the extreme left, and their full right to be represented in the Parliament (from the Salazarist “Chega” party - to the Communist Party). This country doesn't deny the parliamentary representation of the radical right or the parliamentary representation of communists, granted to them by the popular vote.

Who knows, I’m not entirely sure, but this must be the reason why many non-communists agree with the PCP's position. A poll shows that far more Portuguese agree with the communists' position on the Ukrainian president's intervention (23%) in parliament than those who voted PCP in the legislative elections (only 4,3%).

I am and always have been a supporter of humanitarian assistance to all refugees, no matter where they come from.This is what I'm proud of. An estimated 24,000 Ukrainian refugees have reached Portugal already. Over 10,000 Ukrainian refugees have arrived here in the last three weeks of March. Upon entering Portugal, Ukrainian citizens will be automatically assigned the following identification numbers: Tax Identification Number (NIF), Social Security Identification Number (NISS),National Health Service (SNS) User Number.In practice, this means Ukrainians will have the same access to healthcare, job opportunities, and employment as Portuguese citizens.
Several public hospitals released a list of the number of beds available to Ukrainians in need of health care in specific areas (such as palliative care, neonatal care, cancer medication). The Institute of Employment and Vocational Training (IEFP) also mobilized a task force to coordinate skills matching between new Ukrainians arrivals on the one hand, and the needs of businesses in Portugal on the other.
Ukrainian refugee doctors can be hired in the Portuguese NHS. Ukrainian refugees who wish to continue their lives in Portugal are welcome to do so. Ukrainian refugees will be able to work in Portugal and will have thousands jobs to choose from, according to the Ministry for Labour, Solidarity and Social Security. We do the best we can.

in the UK, it’s always the same old story Priti Patel apologises for low number of Ukraine refugees

In the meantime, Britain will send more artillery to the field of battle, and Biden praises US army for sending arms to Ukraine. Western weaponry will unquestionably help to prolong the agony of the Ukrainian people.That's my opinion.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

If NATO didn't expand then they wouldn't have done so informally via the EU or other defensive pact, they mentioned that as another aspect. "NATO will not expand formally or informally".

And yet Russia stated during the negotiations that they're open to Ukraine joining the EU, so clearly they're capable of making the disctinction between the two.

In the meantime, Britain will send more artillery to the field of battle, and Biden praises US army for sending arms to Ukraine. Western weaponry will unquestionably help to prolong the agony of the Ukrainian people.That's my opinion.

Much like how western weaponry helped to prolong the agony of the soviet populace in the face of the nazi invasion. Indeed, without the agony of conflict, they'd just be killed, so the agony would be shorter. Good point.

[z3n]

And yet Russia stated during the negotiations that they're open to Ukraine joining the EU, so clearly they're capable of making the disctinction between the two.


Much like how western weaponry helped to prolong the agony of the soviet populace in the face of the nazi invasion. Indeed, without the agony of conflict, they'd just be killed, so the agony would be shorter. Good point.

Well we are "suspending reality" in the antaeus example, but in reality that is probably because (afaik) the EU doesn't really do wargames, emplace missile sites or invade countries. It's rather NATO who has in the past.

[Coughdrop addict]

Nah, Putin is popular in Russia. This is the result of propaganda and brainwashing.

I recall reading somewhere that interviewed North Korean defectors stated that even with all of the propaganda only something like 30% of the population actually believes any of it. The rest just smile and nod out of fear, because everyone knows of a family that vanished into the night never to be seen again after it was rumored their kid accidentally turned their back on a picture of Dear Leader.

I imagine it's much the same in Russia; while there are those who believe Putin's every word, most know he's lying and they live in a fascist dictatorship. They either accept it through learned helplessness, or join the tens of thousands who have fled Russia since the war began.

[z3n]

@Coughdrop Addict

My personal anecdote is that some years ago (jeez its been almost a decade, just counted), the only Russian I ever knew closely definitely didn't support Putin but she was very young at the time (19) and a civil engineer who eventually received a masters degree with designs of immigrating to any western country (no clue how that turned out). Seems to me that most young Russians have issues, but in the West I'd say things are getting pretty bad for young people as well, home prices are crazy and wages stagnant. Economics directly influence politics and with gas prices so high, I wonder what will happen with Bidens election. Historically high gas prices have an adverse effect on the sitting presidents results.

[Lord Thesaurian]

Ukraine bans Soviet symbols and criminalises sympathy for communism

Translation: Ukraine is an Eastern European country left with horrific memories of communist-flavored Russian imperialism, and adopted similar policies in the post-Soviet era. But you forgot to copy paste this fun fact from the “ukraine nazis” Google search:

The Ukraine parliament has approved a law condemning "the totalitarian Communist and Nazi regimes," and outlawing all related symbols and propaganda.

The legislation, which lawmakers adopted on Thursday, declares the former Communist regime to be criminal and condemns its policy of state terror, alongside Nazism.

The bill bans "all public denial" of the "criminal character" of both Nazi and Communist rule. In addition, the legislation outlaws "production," "circulation" or "public utilization" of their symbols, except for educational or scientific purposes - or when those symbols are located in a cemetery.

https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-lawmak...nda/a-18372853

I hope Zelensky resists the temptation to escalate his repression of the right.

Party of Shariy (Ukrainian: Партiя Шарiя, Russian: Партия Шария, PSh), is a political party in Ukraine founded by political blogger Anatoly Shariy. Its official proclaimed ideology is libertarianism

Thank god libertarian warmongers are at least being purged from somewhere. But how long before Zelenski starts lining centrists up against the wall? Opposition For Life and Nashi are relatively centrist too, and if there’s one thing Joe Biden hates, it’s centrists, so clearly the Americans are in on it as well. Did I mention NATO expansion again? Ah, there.

[reavertm]

Fact 1: Russia claims it is a great power
Fact 2: Russia claims to be threatened by Ukraine
Conclusion: Ukraine is a great power

Slava Ukraini!

As a side note, currently I’m condemning Russia while being located in Belarus, so close enough?

I respect international borders, so no, that doesn't count!

[nhytgbvfeco2]

I recall reading somewhere that interviewed North Korean defectors stated that even with all of the propaganda only something like 30% of the population actually believes any of it. The rest just smile and nod out of fear, because everyone knows of a family that vanished into the night never to be seen again after it was rumored their kid accidentally turned their back on a picture of Dear Leader.

I imagine it's much the same in Russia; while there are those who believe Putin's every word, most know he's lying and they live in a fascist dictatorship. They either accept it through learned helplessness, or join the tens of thousands who have fled Russia since the war began.

Russian propaganda must be far better than north Korean in that case. I have a large number of family members both in Russia and outside it, and almost all of them are staunchly pro-Russian, especially the ones living in the EU.




As for Ludicus's statements, I think I found a solution:
Imagine, for a brief moment, that Ukraine was not being invaded by Russia but rather, god forbid, the USA!
Now I think you'd agree that Ukraine should be armed to the teeth to resist the invader.

I respect international borders, so no, that doesn't count!

Well Russia certainly doesn't, so why bother?

[fkizz]

So Zelensky did a speech on the Portuguese Parliament today. Seems every political party was present, except the PCP (Portuguese Communist Party) who previously already had an apologist atitude towards Russia invasion.

[Mithradates]

Western weaponry will unquestionably help to prolong the agony of the Ukrainian people.That's my opinion.

If, by chance, you would meet some of those Ukrainian refugees, you probably shouldnt share this opinion of yours with them, it would be better for you. Just saying...

So Zelensky did a speech on the Portuguese Parliament today. Seems every political party was present, except the PCP (Portuguese Communist Party) who previously already had an apologist atitude towards Russia invasion.

So unexpected!

[conon394]

As for Ludicus's statements, I think I found a solution:
Imagine, for a brief moment, that Ukraine was not being invaded by Russia but rather, god forbid, the USA!
Now I think you'd agree that Ukraine should be armed to the teeth to resist the invader.

I agree he does seem to have swerved to a level of US always bad that even Chomsky would blush at. I still waiting for the evidence the US was planing a welcome to NATO day and here are your hyper sonic nuclear missiles.

[StarDreamer]

So Zelensky did a speech on the Portuguese Parliament today. Seems every political party was present, except the PCP (Portuguese Communist Party) who previously already had an apologist atitude towards Russia invasion.

When he held a similar speech to the Finnish parliament the only one that was missing was a staunchly Pro-Russian nuthead(peddling all kinds of conspiracy theories) that had broken away/been thrown out from our populist party. These speeches seem a good way to spot the Russian stooges in our parliaments.

[Condottiere 40K]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Rescued Bucha cat with thousand yard stare.