Baktria and India?

[z3n]

I really hope they're including Baktria (Indo-Greek Kingdom) and India as factions. Does anybody know what they're planning to do?

Is it solely focused on China?
One of my dreams was always to have Baktria, China and India all in the same map with those as main factions.

[zoner16]

Baktria and India have almost no influence on the progression of the Three Kingdoms. Baktria is on the other side of the Tarim Basin, with a small mountain range in between them and the closest Han outpost, then a big desert between that and the empire proper. India is on the other side of the entire Tibetan plateau and the world's largest mountain range. To the Han, they only exist as points on the silk road, buying and selling through intermediaries, but nothing else. There is no meaningful direct economic, diplomatic, or military contact between these entities.

More importantly, for a Total War in China, having such a zoomed out map would decrease the detail to the point where we're Empire levels of massive provinces. Such a thing would make it impossible to bring to life the strategies and administration that define the period.

[LinusLinothorax]

Also, 3K plays in the third century AD. The Greeks were long gone at this point. Instead, you would have the Kushan empire in its terminal period of existence (last relevant king died in 225).

[z3n]

Nevermind, apparently it's the 3rd century AD.

Also, 3K plays in the third century AD. The Greeks were long gone at this point. Instead, you would have the Kushan empire in its terminal period of existence (last relevant king died in 225).

Really?

Hmm, I might not buy it then.

[zoner16]

India honestly needs to be its own game. It's too big and too complex to be appended to somebody else's Total War.

I honestly don't get the appeal of having the map be so big that we lose context, focus, and detail. These are entirely different theaters of war with empires that had little to no interaction.

[z3n]

India honestly needs to be its own game. It's too big and too complex to be appended to somebody else's Total War.

I honestly don't get the appeal of having the map be so big that we lose context, focus, and detail. These are entirely different theaters of war with empires that had little to no interaction.

We had Europe, part of Africa & Arabia, along with edges of Asia and even far edges of India before in one map.

In fact there was a mod that had India within it (plus Europe) for the original RTW
http://www.moddb.com/mods/classical-...n-subcontinent



I think that is probably the most fun, when maps are big and different things can happen.
When things are too focused things become rather bland for me and very boring.

[The Wandering Storyteller]

It's quite odd. Very odd.

On the official live stream, I saw bits of India and Mesopotamia, but I did not expect to see China at all.

It is very unlikely that we'll get India in this game. I can't imagine it happening. For one, the actual border between India/China is not really a border, it's a whole bunch of mountains that block it one way or the other. Doesn't mean if you had an Indian faction you can go and attack, but it'd be too tedious anyway.
If it was added, I'd be happy but I'm not sure how it'd work.

India doesn't get enough representation in my opinion. Plenty of periods to make a total war game out of it. I mean come on, the Chinese Community got their own total war (still jealous but actually even happier because it's so refreshing from the damn European setting all the time.) We should get our own total war! Plenty of periods. Not the Mughal Empire as that period is already over-stretched and there are far more interesting Hindu Empires that ruled. They are glossed over too much.

I mean ETW did an excellent job with the Marathas, but that was it really.

[Comrade_Rory]

In the context of this game, I'd rather see work go into fleshing out Korea, Japan, South East Asia, etc.

Who knows though? Maybe Three Kingdoms will be so successful that they decide to give us a chunk of India too?
Or maybe they'll use their experience with Warhammer and make a mega-campaign?

[Intranetusa]

We had Europe, part of Africa & Arabia, along with edges of Asia and even far edges of India before in one map.

In fact there was a mod that had India within it (plus Europe) for the original RTW
http://www.moddb.com/mods/classical-...n-subcontinent

I think that is probably the most fun, when maps are big and different things can happen.
When things are too focused things become rather bland for me and very boring.

The map is going to be pretty big already even without India and Baktria.

The Han Dynasty was slightly bigger than the Roman Empire. If the 3K game includes the entire Han Dynasty and its neighbors (Korean peninsula, SE Asia, Tibetan plateau, possibly the eastern part of Kushan, Central Asia & silk road states, Mongolian/Russian/etc steppes, etc) then it'll be roughly the same size as the Rome TW or Attila TW map.

And CA has never really done well with bigger scoped games on the TW3 engine...ETW was kinda of a mess and Rome2 was a mess on launch and took years to patch the major issues....and is STILL being patched/fixed to this day.

[z3n]

In the context of this game, I'd rather see work go into fleshing out Korea, Japan, South East Asia, etc.

Who knows though? Maybe Three Kingdoms will be so successful that they decide to give us a chunk of India too?
Or maybe they'll use their experience with Warhammer and make a mega-campaign?

Yeah maybe, but it's not very flavorful, it's just Asia...

In my opinion what made total war fun was being able slaughter a variety of different factions, if you know what I mean. You might eventually get tired of slaughtering vampires for example in warhammer, but don't worry there's the orcs dwarves or chaos! And to the north you can go kill the norscans. Oh you don't like them? Go south and get those southerners.

[zoner16]

Yeah maybe, but it's not very flavorful, it's just Asia...

In my opinion what made total war fun was being able slaughter a variety of different factions, if you know what I mean. You might eventually get tired of slaughtering vampires for example in warhammer, but don't worry there's the orcs dwarves or chaos! And to the north you can go kill the norscans. Oh you don't like them? Go south and get those southerners.

Asia has tons of different factions. Hell, Han China alone is the size of the Roman empire, and was not at all homogeneous, especially in this period.

My favorite Total War is Shogun 2, so I guess I have entirely different priorities though. I'd gladly cut every other country out of the game to add more detail to the empire proper.

[z3n]

Asia has tons of different factions. Hell, Han China alone is the size of the Roman empire, and was not at all homogeneous, especially in this period.

My favorite Total War is Shogun 2, so I guess I have entirely different priorities though. I'd gladly cut every other country out of the game to add more detail to the empire proper.

Eh well, I am mainly concerned that in the process of slaughtering them the units won't feel very different. That was mainly why I was always hesitant to buy Shogun Total War. Lots of factions but not many different units or feel to the battlefield.

It seemed like a good game, I've just never tried to buy it for the lack of map, battlefield, and unit variety that I saw in it. Although someone tried to add korea which peaked my interest in a map mod, but then I heard there were possibly crashes.

[Intranetusa]

As I've said before, CA has a lot of material for unit and faction diversity in this time period. The question is whether they're willing to make the effort to do it. The unit variation could range anywhere from Shogun 2 levels if CA gets lazy to Attila TW/near RomeTW levels if CA makes the effort and does the research.

For example:
1) Northern factions - cold steppes and deserts (Xiliang Army/Ma Chao and Gongsun Zan):
Mostly cavalry army (light cavalry, horse archers, and heavy cavalry, etc) with nomadic and Qiang/protoTibetan auxillaries


2) Central Plains factions - flat temperate grassland and temperate forests (Yuan Shao, Tsao Tsao/Tsao-Wei)
Different types of chariots, heavy pikemen, regular & long halberd phalanx, horse archers, massed heavy crossbow, pike + crossbow formations, and heavy cavalry, with nomadic cavalry auxillaries & camel cavalry. Can recruit foreign mercenaries after reestablishing authority over the Western regions.


3) Southeastern Factions - rivers, mountains, and subtropical jungles (Eastern Wu/Sun Clan)
Heavy infantry, light infantry skirmishers, marines, powerful navy, lots of different archers & elite archers, Vietnamese/SE Asian auxillaries, halberd phalanx, polearm-spear infantry, limited cavalry, limited crossbows. Possibly war elephant auxiliaries


4) Southwestern factions - riverlands, mountains and subtropical forests (Shu-Han):
Lots of different crossbows, elite heavy infantry, light infantry, halberd phalanx, polearm & spear infantry, mountain infantry, mounted infantry/Dragoons, mounted crossbowmen, medium cavalry, with jungle tribe auxillaries, Qiang/proto-Tibetan auxillaries. Possibly war elephant auxiliaries


5) Western Regions factions - deserts and silk road city states to the far West (Han Dynasty millitary colonies)
Camel cavalry, desert infantry, Cavalry, mounted infantry, and crossbow units with a mix of Greco-Persian and Indo-Persian units (eg. hoplites and Persian cavalry) and foreign mercenaries


6) Misc/non-playable factions: Han commanderies of the Korean pennisula & Gongsun Du/Gongsun Kang - units like the northern/central plains faction of cavalry and infantry


7) Misc non-core factions:
Xianbei, Wuhuan, and Xiongnu Confederation nomadic kingdoms
Qiang/proto-Tibetan people & mountain tribes
Proto-Vietnamese factions/rebels, the remanents of the Yue kingdom people, & SE Asian Kingdoms
Southwestern barbarian tribes (eg. Nanman) - war elephants and wild animals
Proto-Korean kingdoms
Central Asian/Persian states
Wa (Japan) - tribal troops + sea raiders/pirates (with a little anachronism)

[z3n]

As I've said before, CA has a lot of material for unit and faction diversity in this time period. The question is whether they're willing to make the effort to do it. The unit variation could range anywhere from Shogun 2 levels if CA gets lazy to Attila TW/near RomeTW levels if CA makes the effort and does the research.

Well one of the problems with that is that there was that units for Rome 2 were taken right from Europa Barbaroroum specifically concepted by Paullus (the lead historian for EB and others).

[zoner16]

Well one of the problems with that is that there was that units for Rome 2 were taken right from Europa Barbaroroum specifically concepted by Paullus (the lead historian for EB and others).

Wait what was the problem with this? I thought EB was generally considered a standard of historicity to strive for.

[z3n]

Wait what was the problem with this? I thought EB was generally considered a standard of historicity to strive for.

I'm on the EB team so that's not news to me. Anyway, it was a little annoying to the historians to see exact replicas (units) that were their concepted idea and not be credited or recognized in any way. In fact some of these replicas were ideas that only they had about very obscure periods of time and places (which allowed them to identify and know their work was copied).


As for the exact problem, who is going to supply the concepts to them? Rome 2 had unit variety but the concepts and ideas for that were already created by the EB historians for the most part. Whereas in this case it's going to primarily be CA trying to do that. Granted there is a three kingdoms mod but I'm not sure how historically based it is.

[zoner16]

I'm on the EB team so that's not news to me. Anyway, it was a little annoying to the historians to see exact replicas (units) that were their concepted idea and not be credited or recognized in any way. In fact some of these replicas were ideas that only they had about very obscure periods of time and places (which allowed them to identify and know their work was copied).

As for the exact problem, who is going to supply the concepts to them? Rome 2 had unit variety but the concepts and ideas for that were already created by the EB historians for the most part. Whereas in this case it's going to primarily be CA trying to do that. Granted there is a three kingdoms mod but I'm not sure how historically based it is.

Well, there's no good answer for this, because we have so little information on the game right now. They could go in several different directions. The possibility for a huge amount of variety is there though.

I don't particularly care who they take their information from, whether its books, movies, modders, or some professor so long as the information is accurate. History isn't a closed domain. CA has to get the concepts from somewhere, and they still have to do their own implementation.

[LinusLinothorax]

Back in the day CA announced that they have a historian helping them out with the upcoming title i.e. 3K, so that's a gleam of hope.

[zoner16]

Back in the day CA announced that they have a historian helping them out with the upcoming title i.e. 3K, so that's a gleam of hope.

Depends on who it is.

[Intranetusa]

As for the exact problem, who is going to supply the concepts to them? Rome 2 had unit variety but the concepts and ideas for that were already created by the EB historians for the most part. Whereas in this case it's going to primarily be CA trying to do that. Granted there is a three kingdoms mod but I'm not sure how historically based it is.

There are plenty of materials they can draw inspiration/steal from if they did just take EB's ideas for units. The Tiger Knight game has full unit roosters (that is pretty diverse too) for the 3 main factions of the 3 Kingdoms era and even has a Roman faction. They can take stuff from TW mods, media, movies, etc. There's like 7+ mods for RTW2, MTW2, Shogun 2, and Attila TW.

Well, there's no good answer for this, because we have so little information on the game right now. They could go in several different directions. The possibility for a huge amount of variety is there though.I don't particularly care who they take their information from, whether its books, movies, modders, or some professor so long as the information is accurate. History isn't a closed domain. CA has to get the concepts from somewhere, and they still have to do their own implementation.

I'm ok with the game being mostly accurate, with a little anachronism to spice up game. Every TW game so far has had anachronistic or quasi fictional units. We had 10th century Vikings, medieval pikemen, etc in 5th century Attila TW; straight up fictional units or 2000 year off Egyptians in RTW1; anachronistic stuff in RTW2, etc.


If they could expand the game to add a united Xiongnu Confederation (technically they were mostly defeated and divided into different groups a century before the 3K era) or give war elephants to all of the Southern factions instead of just the Nanman (which would only be maybe a very minor 200-300 year anachronistic), give soldiers in the Western regions camel riders and camel cataphracts, etc then we could have a lot of diversity. Maybe even introduce early form of proto-gunpowder for catapults (no different than exploding L-Oanger shells in Attila), which is only maybe 5 centuries off. And they could bring in the many types of older troops from the Warring States period...soldiers with Rhino hide armor, Wei elite-legionaires decked out in multiple layers of armor and equipped with a shield, crossbows & multiple weapons, massed chariot factions, etc. That would only be maybe 5-6 centuries anachronistic, which is not bad in terms of TW game accuracy. And that's still keeping the game mostly within the realm of RTW2/Attila TW-level plausibility and accuracy without going into middle ages units.