Ireland's place.

[Compsey]

I don't think that Ireland should be playable, though the 1798 rebellion should definitely be a feature as it'll put a faction that can be exploited (like the Baron's Alliance in Kingdoms) into the game. Historically the French did try to land troops to support the rebels and TW is all about changing history. I'd love to see Ireland as playable for online battles, but as a campaign faction we're not viable.

 

[Elyrioth]

There was still a lot of Irish over there. Many Irish Catholics that came to power in the 1800s had to go to france to get an education like Daniel O Connel. So I'd say there were quite a few over there. And the Feanch made two attempts at reinforcing Ireland's rebels in the 1790s.

The Irish French Regiments were dispanded after the revolution. The French Irish Brigade was Officially dispanded on 21 July 1791. Remember by this time a lot of the Irish in the regiments were actually 2nd or 3rd generation French. When the Papacy recognised George III in 1766 recruitment suffered. A lot of the Irish regiments remained Loyal and left with the count de Provence those few who did remain in France were absorbed into existing regiments and lost all colors, uniforms etc.

From the Militia Act 1793 on the only Nation with a significant number of Irish Troops was GB and they were indistinguishable from the other British Line Regiments. Unless they do them as SF units it would really be pointless. They are at the end of the day line units and if they get special treatment others will want Scottish and Welsh regiments to get special notice.

I think regiments created in Ireland or any other region should be morked as such, the ability to rename regiments will allow to recreate historical ones.

 

[anonymous_joe]

In fairness, it's impossible to really convey the importance of Ireland to Great Britain in a game.

Ignoring the whole third of the army thing, the reason the French were so dedicated to liberating/taking over us was because they'd have two potential fronts to attack England, which would make the Royal Navy's job infinitely harder in preventing invasion.

I doubt Empire will help show us that though.

 

[Jihada]

Lieutenant-Colonel Pierre Carles Le corps irlandais au service de la France sous le Consulat et I'Empire, Révue Historique de l'Armée, Vol 2 (1976) pp25-54. Carles further comments on the low level of desertion among the Irish troops in the British army in the Peninsula, as follows ' ...desertion among the Irish in the Peninsula was very low. The loyalty of the Irish 'to the flag,' even the British flag, is a fact.' This contrasts with the high rates of desertion among the troops of the Irish Legion. Not one Irish officer deserted or defected from the British army in the Peninsula, while the Irish Legion lost two, and many others during the 100 days. Carles concludes, 'Even if all Irish prisoners and deserters could have been recruited, there would not have been enough between 1805 and 1815 to make a regiment (in the French army.)'

It seems Irish in the British army were no different than the rest in their attitudes to fighting for Britain.The (French) Irish Legion however had problems.The above quote from a French writer btw.
Even though there were famous Irish regiments, many Irish were spread among ordinary British line regiments.The 'invasions' of Ireland in the 1790s were a farce and had no chance of success without a general uprising which Wolfe Tone etc were unable to organise.After Trafalgar no chance of foreign intervention or significant aid.
It would be ok in the game if the French or whoever could land enough troops but this shouldn't be easy.We could also ask for factions rebelling against the French,Russians,Austrians.Vendee.Cantabria,Veneto.Poland ,Tirol etc.
Ireland's population in 1811 was about 6million(more than today) and for many the army was the only way out of poverty.Not much of a choice.England was only 10million but less needed to join the army as there were more opportunities for work.

 

[Destraex]

so it is established that many irish were scattered throughout the english standard line regiments. It is also established that the scottish had a lot of scottish dress regiments and the irish/welsh had a few that looked english but had a welsh or irish name.
None of this justifies CA doing anything in napoleon total war to create special irish units......

 

[Elyrioth]

In fairness, it's impossible to really convey the importance of Ireland to Great Britain in a game.

I think that sums it up perfectly. How, without giving the Irish (I am Irish) significantly and unwarrented preferential treatment would you represent it, bar maybe a single famous regiment.

 

[Dynamo11]

Just give me a special unit of the Connaught Rangers and Royal Irish Regiment and I'll be a happy man

 

[Dinter]

It doesn't matter what regiments you give to Ireland sure they'd be fighting for the Crown anyway.

I think a better idea would be to allow factions the ability to agitate in other factions possessions. So, for example, France could pay the Irish parliament not to vote for the Act of Union in much the same way the British government paid them to vote for it. At this time, with the constitution of 1782 in place, Ireland really could have peacably become a state in its own right. That level of detail might be unworkable but what about the following:

Whereas now in ETW a province will become rebellious due to your actions such as building a university or removing a garrison wouldn't it be great if you could pay money to make someone else's province rebellious? So each province has a slider that is influenced by your actions toward them even if you don't own them. So you could spark rebellions and have proxy wars breaking out to weaken your foes before you have to risk your own troops.

I just find it unrealistic that you can stick a pub in a province and suddenly all the inhabitants love you and want to die in your armies.

 

[emperorpenguin]

Well it's an over-simplification for game purposes. It's not really a pub making everyone happy, just an in-game representation of your attempt at providing "bread and circuses" for the mob.
I do however love your idea. I like doing it to enemy provinces in Cossacks 2.

 

[AUSSIE11]

if i remember correctly u used to be able to stir up unrest in medieval total war with spies.

 

[Didz]

Republican France didn't have many Irish units, as most stayed loyal to tyranny at the time.

The Foriegn regiments of the Bourbon Army were gradually absorbed into the new system of Demi-Brigades after the revolution. Generally, foriegners were not trusted by the citisens of France and attracted a lot of hostility due to their distinctive uniforms. There are even complaints from Frenchmen drafted into these regiments that because they were forced to wear the foriegn uniform colour they were subject to the same abuse even though they were French.

Eventually, the units simply got reclothed and became indistinquishable from the other regiments.

As far as the Irish in British regiments are concerned, I'm afraid I agreed with Emperor_Penquin. Such regiments looked exactly the same as any other British line regiment of the time, so it would be pointless making a special skin for them. Most British regiments contained a considerable number of Irish volunteers anyway, even the Scottish Regiments had a smattering of Irishmen in them. And Catholic's were recruited during the Napoleonic wars. I think it was Mark Urban who describes the riot that took place in Aldershot when the Catholic and Protestant volunteers decided to settle their religious differences at the expense of the local population.

About the only British line regiment worthy of special attention would be the Royal Welsh Fusiliers who did at least wear a distinctive hat.

 

[T.C.]

I know this is a bit off topic and before I start im making it known im Irish, and not some paddy-whacker
Imaging if the 1798 rebellion had suceeded? With French help of course...
Imagine what that would have done for the entire Napoleonic wars? If Napoleon had a base to invade England with, we could all be speaking French today (Obviously the Empire would have collapsed at some stage, history shows us that sustaining an Empire of hundreds of years just isnt possible.)
I have to say, I think on the whole it was better that the rebellion was a failure - if it had suceeded without French help it would be a different story.
So I suppose you could say Ireland had a pivotal role in the Napoleonic wars (1798 may be out of N:TW's timeframe), more on a geographical sense than from a view of "what British/French units were Irish".

 

[Didz]

Imagine what that would have done for the entire Napoleonic wars? If Napoleon had a base to invade England with, we could all be speaking French today (Obviously the Empire would have collapsed at some stage, history shows us that sustaining an Empire of hundreds of years just isnt possible.)

Its all conjecture of course, but I suspect that even if France had managed to support a revolt in Ireland and set Ireland up as a Pro-French republic, it would have made little overall difference to the British Empire. The Royal Navy would still have ruled the waves, meaning that France would be hard pressed to supply its new ally with troops or supplies, and likewise, Ireland had no navy with which to effect a landing in England or Wales.

I suspect Ireland would have starved, Britian would have withheld more troops from India and Spain which might have made things easier for Napoleon in Portugal, and the British Blockade would have had a bit farther to stretch but not desperately so. But even that is dubious as Britain could merely have increased the ballot for the Militia and Army of the Reserve and raised extra regiments for home defence that way instead. Indeed, asumming that Ireland was classed as 'Home' from a service restriction point of view, then Britain could have used its militia and army of reserve regiments to counter the revolution without tapping its oversea's commitments.

The Catholic rebelion would probably have ended up falling apart under the realities of life without food or tangible help from France, and there would have been a counter-revolution at some point possibly aided by the British.

Historically, France has shown itself to be a very poor ally in such matters and whilst they were undoubtely keen to use Ireland as a distraction for British troops they probably would not have had the motivation or resources to actually support such a republic once it was established.

 

[EireEmerald]

I know this is a bit off topic and before I start im making it known im Irish, and not some paddy-whacker
Imaging if the 1798 rebellion had suceeded? With French help of course...
Imagine what that would have done for the entire Napoleonic wars? If Napoleon had a base to invade England with, we could all be speaking French today (Obviously the Empire would have collapsed at some stage, history shows us that sustaining an Empire of hundreds of years just isnt possible.)
I have to say, I think on the whole it was better that the rebellion was a failure - if it had suceeded without French help it would be a different story.
So I suppose you could say Ireland had a pivotal role in the Napoleonic wars (1798 may be out of N:TW's timeframe), more on a geographical sense than from a view of "what British/French units were Irish".

Ireland would not have succeeded without France. The rebels had bloody pikes, they were not allowed to have firearms because they were catholic.

 

[Their Law]

I suppose the crux of the matter is this, is their any evidence outside of the elite regiments that troops from Ireland were any better or differently skilled than regiments from England, Scotland or Wale's. For me a line regiment is a line regiment, just rename the damn thing to symbolise it's Irish origin. Of course there's a valid case for the exceptional regiments, but including Irish line regiments just for the sake of it seems a tad unnecessary and smacks a bit of misplaced nationalism.

 

[Didz]

I suppose the crux of the matter is this, is their any evidence outside of the elite regiments that troops from Ireland were any better or differently skilled than regiments from England, Scotland or Wale's.

Nope! The only real evidence is that generally speaking it was easier to recruit in Ireland than elsewhere in Britain, because they were more desperate and so more likely to go for the bounty on offer. Once in a British Regiment they were trained exactly the same way as all other British Regiments were trained and performed to exactly the same standard 'three rounds per minute, and keep you mouth shut.'

In fact, thats the big difference between Irishmen in British service and those in say French or US service. In British regiments you remained silent, so there was no shouting of Irish battle cries ect.

 

[T.C.]

Its all conjecture of course, but I suspect that even if France had managed to support a revolt in Ireland and set Ireland up as a Pro-French republic, it would have made little overall difference to the British Empire. The Royal Navy would still have ruled the waves, meaning that France would be hard pressed to supply its new ally with troops or supplies, and likewise, Ireland had no navy with which to effect a landing in England or Wales.

I suspect Ireland would have starved, Britian would have withheld more troops from India and Spain which might have made things easier for Napoleon in Portugal, and the British Blockade would have had a bit farther to stretch but not desperately so. But even that is dubious as Britain could merely have increased the ballot for the Militia and Army of the Reserve and raised extra regiments for home defence that way instead. Indeed, asumming that Ireland was classed as 'Home' from a service restriction point of view, then Britain could have used its militia and army of reserve regiments to counter the revolution without tapping its oversea's commitments.

The Catholic rebelion would probably have ended up falling apart under the realities of life without food or tangible help from France, and there would have been a counter-revolution at some point possibly aided by the British.

Historically, France has shown itself to be a very poor ally in such matters and whilst they were undoubtely keen to use Ireland as a distraction for British troops they probably would not have had the motivation or resources to actually support such a republic once it was established.

Thats assuming that Ireland is a barren wasteland - we do have means of providing our own food sources

Ireland would not have succeeded without France. The rebels had bloody pikes, they were not allowed to have firearms because they were catholic.

As, in the end, it didnt suceed - still youve got to love the picture with the Irish on one side with their pike and the British on the other with their guns and an Irish guy with his hand stuck down the cannon barrel

 

[EireEmerald]

As, in the end, it didnt suceed - still youve got to love the picture with the Irish on one side with their pike and the British on the other with their guns and an Irish guy with his hand stuck down the cannon barrel

typical!

 

[Their Law]

Nope! The only real evidence is that generally speaking it was easier to recruit in Ireland than elsewhere in Britain, because they were more desperate and so more likely to go for the bounty on offer. Once in a British Regiment they were trained exactly the same war as all other British Regiments were trained and performed to exactly the same standard 'three rounds per minute, and keep you mouth shut.'

In fact, thats the big difference between Irishmen in British service and those in say French or US service. In British regiments you remained silent, so there was no shouting of Irish battle cries ect.

In that case there shouldn't be any need for an Irish line regiment within the British faction, there should only be unit variation if that variation actually brings something tangible to the table. Having Irish, Welsh, Scottish and English line infantry regiments for the sake of it seems a bit unnecessary. You don't have the French faction recruiting Normandy based line regiments as well as Brittany regiments, they all fall under the French Umbrella term. I think that outside of elite regiments that should be the case within the British faction, though I'm all for the regionalism elite regiments to be present.