What makes an unit able to hit buildings?

[leo.civil.uefs]

What line in export_descr_unit allows an unit to be able to hit walls and gates like catapults do?

I tried making an infantry unit to have the same lines of a catapult unit.

From this:

type             Gondor Catapult
dictionary       Gondor_Catapult      ; Catapult
category         siege
class            missile
voice_type       Heavy
banner faction   main_missile
banner holy      crusade
soldier          NE_Catapult_Crew, 24, 2, 1
officer             gondor_captain_early_flag
engine           gondor_catapult
attributes       sea_faring, hardy, can_withdraw, artillery
formation        1.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3, square
stat_health      1, 2
stat_pri         7, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, artillery_mechanical, piercing, sword, 25, 1
stat_pri_attr    no
stat_sec         60, 3, catapult, 250, 25, siege_missile, artillery_mechanical, blunt, none, 25, 1
stat_sec_attr    ap, bp, area, launching
stat_pri_armour  4, 2, 0, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        1
stat_ground      0, -1, -2, -2
stat_mental      10, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 15
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 650, 200, 60, 140, 650, 1, 120
armour_ug_levels 3
armour_ug_models Gondor_Catapult_Crew
ownership        sicily
era 0            sicily
era 1            sicily
era 2            sicily
recruit_priority_offset    5

To this:

type             Marines
dictionary       Marines      ; Marines
category         siege
class            missile
voice_type       Heavy
banner faction   main_missile
banner holy      crusade
soldier          marines, 60, 0, 1
officer             gondor_captain_early_flag
officer             gondor_captain_early_flag
engine           gondor_catapult ; WITHOUT THIS THE GAME CTD AT START
mount_effect     elephant -10
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, can_withdraw, cannot_skirmish, free_upkeep_unit, artillery
formation        1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 4, square
stat_health      1, 3
stat_pri         60, 3, catapult, 250, 25, siege_missile, artillery_mechanical, blunt, none, 25, 1
stat_pri_attr    ap, bp, area, launching
stat_sec         7, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 0, 1
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  5, 3, 4, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        4
stat_ground      0, -1, 0, -2
stat_mental      13, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 15
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 540, 220, 75, 75, 540, 3, 150
armour_ug_levels 2, 3
armour_ug_models marines, marines_ug1
ownership        sicily
era 0            sicily
era 1            sicily
era 2            sicily
recruit_priority_offset    7

Yes, I'm trying to make infantry trhow rocks and hit buildings.

I can make them throw rocks and with the code above they will even load in battle without ctd, in a siege battle as attackers, with NO NEED FOR SIEGE ENGINES, the game loads. However, as soon as the battle starts a defeat is announced and the battle ends.

[QuintusSertorius]

I'm not sure it's just an EDU thing, you may need to edit the descr_projectiles.txt.

[leo.civil.uefs]

I'm not sure it's just an EDU thing, you may need to edit the descr_projectiles.txt.

descr_projectiles.txt is where the projectiles are set. In this case, "catapult", which is the same used for the catapult unit, and this unit can hit buildings. I can't see anything of use in descr_projectiles.txt.

[Titus le Chmakus]

There is !

Here is a siege engine missile descr_projectile code :

projectile trebuchet

effect             boulder_medium_set
end_effect                ground_impact_treb_set
end_man_effect            man_impact_catapult_set
end_package_effect        wall_impact_medium_set
end_shatter_effect        ground_impact_treb_set
end_shatter_man_effect        man_impact_catapult_set
end_shatter_package_effect    wall_impact_medium_set


damage            90
damage_to_troops 10
radius            0.3
mass            2.4        ;appears to be units of 100kg (given a man is 0.8)
area            2.0
accuracy_vs_units        0.075
accuracy_vs_buildings    0.05
accuracy_vs_towers      0.0305 
min_angle        -15
max_angle        70
velocity        75 ;61
;bounce            0.01 0.01 0.93 0.5
body_piercing
display            aimed 
effect_only

And this is the arrow code

effect            arrows_new_set
end_effect                arrow_impact_ground_set
end_man_effect            man_impact_tiny_set
end_package_effect        arrow_impact_wall_set
end_shatter_effect        arrow_impact_ground_set
end_shatter_man_effect        man_impact_tiny_set
end_shatter_package_effect    arrow_broken_impact_wall_set

effect_offset    -1.5
damage        0
radius        0.1
mass        0.05
accuracy_vs_units        0.05
affected_by_rain
min_angle    -75
max_angle    65
velocity    20 48
display        aimed
effect_only

Have a look at the differences !

You also have to set it to siege_missile as in Red to make it really a siege engine ...

type             Trebuchet
dictionary       Trebuchet
category         siege
class            missile
voice_type       Heavy
banner faction   main_missile
banner holy      crusade
soldier          NE_Trebuchet_Crew, 16, 2, 1
engine           trebuchet
attributes       sea_faring, hardy, can_withdraw, artillery
formation        1.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3, square
stat_health      1, 0
stat_pri         9, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, piercing, sword, 25, 2 ;short sword +3 9
;stat_pri_ex      0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr    no
stat_sec         50, 0, trebuchet, 300, 30, siege_missile, artillery_mechanical, blunt, none, 25, 1
;stat_sec_ex      0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr    bp, area, launching
stat_ter         12, 0, cow_carcass, 250, 5, siege_missile, artillery_mechanical, blunt, none, 25, 1
;stat_ter_ex      0, 0, 0
stat_ter_attr    bp, area, launching,
stat_pri_armour  10, 9, 0, leather ;base 5 leather+3 5 ;base 5 dex 4
;stat_armour_ex   4, 0, 0, 0, 4, 0, 0, leather
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        1
stat_ground      0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental      9, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 0
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        15, 430, 250, 90, 70, 430, 4, 100
armour_ug_levels 1
armour_ug_models NE_Trebuchet_Crew
ownership        portugal, normans, turks, timurids, denmark, aztecs, hre, mongols, scotland, venice, france, egypt, milan, england, spain, papal_states, poland, hungary, russia, byzantium, moors, sicily, slave,
;unit_info        6, 0, 8

But as they are supposed to attack buildings, they are very OP against units.

You can also tweak the descr_area_effect.xml to change the area of effects

the line area_effect has to be added above damage_to_troops (check the mortar_shot in vanilla files to understand the code and mechanics)

Also, use the javelin thrower animation to simulate spells throws (EDU line soldier -> Javelinmen) ! As I bet you are trying to create wizards ?

[Medusa0]

What line in export_descr_unit allows an unit to be able to hit walls and gates like catapults do?
I can make them throw rocks and with the code above they will even load in battle without ctd, in a siege battle as attackers, with NO NEED FOR SIEGE ENGINES, the game loads. However, as soon as the battle starts a defeat is announced and the battle ends.

Unfortunately, it seems that only artillery type units are allowed to damage buildings in M2TW, and they are hard-coded to have their projectile attack as their secondary attack since RTW (with the above, the marines now have a whopping 60 melee attack too). This is bizarre as projectiles with non-zero "damage" perimeters can target and damage siege engines just fine.

You can however game the system a bit by creating a "mounted_engine" type of unit akin to the elephant artillery, which does mean that the unit will be an elephant type unit with all of their quirks and limitations (cannot scale walls, no defensive/ready animations, etc. though I suspect you already know the majority of them from your works in Third Age). I could go into more details if you are interested.

Edit: Now here's a thought, if artillery are required to have their building damaging projectiles as secondary, what effects would it have if you add a tertiary weapon perimeter to the marines above?

[leo.civil.uefs]

There is !...

As I bet you are trying to create wizards ?

No wizards. Rock throwing Trolls!

I tried everything with descr_projectiles and expor_descr_units. It does not work and the reason seems to be explained by Medusa0 in his reply.

(with the above, the marines now have a whopping 60 melee attack too).

You mean my codes above? That way their primary attack is throwing rocks. It works well. It just can't target buildings.

If I set the rock throwing as secondary, there is no way how to use it ingame, see it below:

type             Marines
dictionary       Marines      ; Marines
category         siege
class            missile
voice_type       Heavy
banner faction   main_missile
banner holy      crusade
soldier          marines, 60, 0, 1
officer             gondor_captain_early_flag
officer             gondor_captain_early_flag
engine           northern_catapult
mount_effect     elephant -10
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, can_withdraw, cannot_skirmish, free_upkeep_unit, artillery
formation        1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 4, square
stat_health      1, 3
stat_pri         4, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, artillery_mechanical, blunt, mace, 25, 1
stat_pri_attr    ap
stat_sec         60, 3, catapult, 250, 25, siege_missile, artillery_mechanical, blunt, none, 25, 1
stat_sec_attr    ap, bp, area, launching
stat_pri_armour  5, 3, 4, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        4
stat_ground      0, -1, 0, -2
stat_mental      13, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 15
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 540, 220, 75, 75, 540, 3, 150
armour_ug_levels 2, 3
armour_ug_models marines, marines_ug1
ownership        sicily
era 0            sicily
era 1            sicily
era 2            sicily
recruit_priority_offset    7

[Medusa0]

type             Marines
dictionary       Marines      ; Marines
category         siege
class            missile
voice_type       Heavy
banner faction   main_missile
banner holy      crusade
soldier          marines, 60, 0, 1
officer             gondor_captain_early_flag
officer             gondor_captain_early_flag
engine           northern_catapult
mount_effect     elephant -10
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, can_withdraw, cannot_skirmish, free_upkeep_unit, artillery
formation        1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 4, square
stat_health      1, 3
stat_pri         4, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, artillery_mechanical, blunt, mace, 25, 1
stat_pri_attr    ap
stat_sec         60, 3, catapult, 250, 25, siege_missile, artillery_mechanical, blunt, none, 25, 1
stat_sec_attr    ap, bp, area, launching
stat_pri_armour  5, 3, 4, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        4
stat_ground      0, -1, 0, -2
stat_mental      13, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 15
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 540, 220, 75, 75, 540, 3, 150
armour_ug_levels 2, 3
armour_ug_models marines, marines_ug1
ownership        sicily
era 0            sicily
era 1            sicily
era 2            sicily
recruit_priority_offset    7

Huh, interesting, maybe the fact that you used a missile unit as a base (versus just swapping the primary and secondary weapon of a catapult crew) make it possible for the unit to launch projectiles without their siege engines?

[Titus le Chmakus]

The second code of your first post should work ! Or at least the stat_pri !

Did you try with category infantry rather than siege ? And remove the engine line.

Are you sure the soldier line you are using defenetly works ? I mean your marines are properly coded in other files ?

Huh, interesting, maybe the fact that you used a missile unit as a base (versus just swapping the primary and secondary weapon of a catapult crew) make it possible for the unit to launch projectiles without their siege engines?

That is not a problem, I've been using it ! It works.

Leo, what does the defeat pannel says ?

[♔atthias♔]

The second code of your first post should work ! Or at least the stat_pri !

Did you try with category infantry rather than siege ? And remove the engine line.

Are you sure the soldier line you are using defenetly works ? I mean your marines are properly coded in other files ?

That is not a problem, I've been using it ! It works.

Leo, what does the defeat pannel says ?

I think just clear defeat like always when you can attack a city but have no actual engines to break wall or gated with

[leo.civil.uefs]

The second code of your first post should work ! Or at least the stat_pri !

Did you try with category infantry rather than siege ? And remove the engine line.

Are you sure the soldier line you are using defenetly works ? I mean your marines are properly coded in other files ?

Yes and yes.

Leo, what does the defeat pannel says ?

Hummm... can't remember now and can't test since I'm trying otehr ways wiht the files. Does the pannel shows anything more than "defeat" and the number results? Why do you ask?

[Titus le Chmakus]

Hummm... can't remember now and can't test since I'm trying otehr ways wiht the files. Does the pannel shows anything more than "defeat" and the number results? Why do you ask?

Just to know if the game considers that you have no soldier left ... from the begining of the battle ... That could mean you coded something wrongly ... If you have siege engines intact with all soldiers killed, I think you loose the battle.

I think just clear defeat like always when you can attack a city but have no actual engines to break wall or gated with

I thought the game would not let you attack if you have no siege engine (the assault option is grey in the siege pannel)

[WhiffOfGrapeshot]

I thought the game would not let you attack if you have no siege engine (the assault option is grey in the siege pannel)

He's making them a siege engine unit, with an engine listed, but with 0 engines attached, so the game treats it as if the engines were destroyed, even if the crew is still fine. Pretty clever getting it to load like that, but unfortunately a crew with no engines is effectively just infantry.

The best way I can see this working is to set it up like Akthross' Troll Stone Throwers, where the attached engines are ammo carts filled with rocks, with the crew animations set so there's only a crew rear, which has an animation of throwing a rock matching the engine actually firing it. Like that, they'll throw rocks, knock down walls, and then when detached from their ammo carts, act as infantry.

[leo.civil.uefs]

He's making them a siege engine unit, with an engine listed, but with 0 engines attached, so the game treats it as if the engines were destroyed, even if the crew is still fine. Pretty clever getting it to load like that, but unfortunately a crew with no engines is effectively just infantry.

The best way I can see this working is to set it up like Akthross' Troll Stone Throwers, where the attached engines are ammo carts filled with rocks, with the crew animations set so there's only a crew rear, which has an animation of throwing a rock matching the engine actually firing it. Like that, they'll throw rocks, knock down walls, and then when detached from their ammo carts, act as infantry.

Thanks for this information.

Though I don't think it would fit well for TATW.

That way Trolls would be just engine crews and the AI would not use them properly as infantry.

[WhiffOfGrapeshot]

That way Trolls would be just engine crews and the AI would not use them properly as infantry.

I'm pretty sure once they run out of ammunition, or they get attacked, the AI would commit them as infantry, and they can still have full Troll melee stats.

Otherwise, if you make them elephant_cannons, so they can attack walls, the AI has a much harder time with it, as there's a very common bug where the whole army will simply run away from the walls and camp, when attacking with elephant_cannon units, even if they bring rams and ladders.

Another problem with making them elephant_cannons is that they won't have a throwing animation, as elephant_cannon units simple fire from their idle.

As regular infantry with a projectile, I haven't seen a way to get them to attack walls, regardless of the projectile, even editing the cursor actions so it doesn't grey out over walls.

Basically the only things that can attack walls and gates are engines, which includes mounted_engines/elephant_cannons, but those come with their own sets of problems.