DCI: Last Alliance - Open Beta released, NEW: 10 October 2020 new patch released, contains Ents - Wolves - Spiders crashes fix! (and more)

[Ngugi]

Thought we could share the image of our faction colours, recently concluded, also found in the OP now;



As seen this is a rough presentation, not all minor colour details and symbols are handled yet, neitehr are all strat map models updated, but it show what it's intended to.
Further can be noted cedric37 is on to create new faction symbols/shields for DCI: LA, which we are most thrilled about

[sanderman2]

Very nice , you are going to make different models for Angmar and The dunland region generals?

[Ngugi]

All three Hillmen-factions will get new military strat map models, and agents at need, but presumably sharing the same models as they are [leats in our interpetation] kindred folks; that means Men of the Mountain, Wildmen of Enedwaith and Hillmen of the North [who hold the area of Angmar, even if that name will not be much mentioned]

Also Rhun and Rhovanion will get new generals, while Numenorean Kingdoms will use the Arnorean models just as Harad's generals do

[Dan the Man]

Am I allowed to ask what that red and white faction taking up residence north of Gondor is?

Fantastic work, by the way! Really excited to see the finished product.

[smoesville]

Is there any intention to change the map at all? It's just that certain things didn't exist at the time of the Last Alliance (Durthang and Cirith Ungol).

Am I allowed to ask what that red and white faction taking up residence north of Gondor is?

They would be the Men of the Mountains.

[Ngugi]

Am I allowed to ask what that red and white faction taking up residence north of Gondor is?

Fantastic work, by the way! Really excited to see the finished product.

Of course, hehe, it's our 'dear' friends the Men of the Mountain. During these campaigns they will have option to prove Loyal to the oath to Isildur or prove Oathbreakers (who in lore turn to cursed ghosts and did not redeem themselves till Aragorn came)

Thanks

[Ngugi]

Double post here, hehe

Is there any intention to change the map at all? It's just that certain things didn't exist at the time of the Last Alliance (Durthang and Cirith Ungol).

Yes, we will have the map edited, however only in certain cases. A Lorien settlement down north of (later) Dol Amroth due to lore and an additional Grey Mountains settlement to help OotMM for example; some redrawn province boarders for the sake of example the Dwarf Road east of the MM and other tweaks like no settlement on Amon Lanc even if the province remain.
We will have some kind of settlement in a province named Cirith Dúath, that equal Ungol

11 All three had fought in the War of the Alliance, but Aratan an Ciryon had not been in the invasion of Mordor and the siege of Barad-dûr, for Isildur had sent them to man his fortress of Minas Ithil, lest Sauron should escape Gil-galad and Elendil and seek to force away through Cirith Dúath (later called Cirith Ungol) and take vengeance on the Dúnedain before he was overcome.
- UT; The DIastaster of the Gladden Fields; Notes

Durthang I had not thought of however, thanks for the heads up

[Beorn]

1)Hillmen of Rhudaur weren't independent people back then
2)The provinces east of Morthond weren't part of Gondor for some centuries after the LA
3) You have ommmited the Woodsmen
4) I would give the Men of the Mts some more provinces and assign the Grey Mts to Dwarves
5)the Elves of Mirkwood are located too south; When in Gladdens, Isildur's men were some days's travel before Thranduil's Kingdom
6)Wildmen of Minhiriath should've been a different faction (if a faction at all) from the early dunledings.
7)I would give to "Dunledings" the Westfold and Adorn's province, and make RK control the banks of Greyflood.

[Dutch-Balrog]

Very nice! But why does Arnor miss that one region? The Shire didn't exist yet in the 2nd age.

[sanderman2]

5)the Elves of Mirkwood are located too south; When in Gladdens, Isildur's men were some days's travel

To south? i actually thought they are were they are now.

[Beorn]

It's one of the contradicting parts of LotR. Supposedly they fled northwards from Amon Lanc at ~1050 T.A., bit when Isildur's party was returning to Arnor in T.A. 1 they were supposed to be a week's (or some days, I can't recall UT right now) Numenorean travel north of the Gladden

[Dutch-Balrog]

Amon Lanc (Where Sauron build Dol Guldur) was under the controll of the Silvan elves. But please answer my question too.
"Why does Arnor miss that one region? The Shire didn't exist yet in the 2nd age."

[Beorn]

^that's another one of my questions too

[Ngugi]

Aah, a good but laberous chance to explain as well as re-evluate the sources upon which the decisions are based. Excuse a late reply, it took some time to gather quotes and assemble the argumentations....
I beg your pardon if I get clumsy and messy here and there, all these matters in my head at once and a bit tired have made me jump to and fro; I just hope the general points are visible

1)Hillmen of Rhudaur weren't independent people back then

I argue evil folk of the northern Eriador, who I however redraw my expected realtionship with the Men of the Mountain, Breelanders and Enedwaith/Dunlending forefathers, to some degree lived where they lived when Arnor came to be. Perhaps related to Bór's folk (if those ain't Lossoth, which may be a dual truth).

59. When they entered Eriador (early in the second century of the Third Age) Men were still numerous there, both Numenoreans and other Men related to the Atani, beside remnants of Men of evil kinds, hostile to the Kings
- about Hobbits, HoME 12; Of Dwarves and Men

Of the people of Bór, it is said, came the most ancient of the Men that dwelt in the north of Eriador in the Second Age and ... after-days.
- HoME 11; The Grey Annals

The chief of the Úlairi comes north and establishes himself as a king of evil men in Angmar in the far North regions.
- HoME 12; The Heirs of Elendil

These 'Men of evil' apperently not related to the Atani are not Dunlendish peoples (see second quote on #6) and by all accounts not Lossoth
I do not forget the quotes that the WK gathered evil Men, Orcs and other beasts but the last above quote convince me that he did not sized an empty land and started from scratch, but that there was already a human population who had Sauron or even Morgoth in their heart (we shall not forget Morgoth expected Bór's people to be loyal to him; which they to their honour proved not).

We are never told the Hillmen of Rhudaur migrated to or invaded Rhudaur (as Men from Angmar did some 150-200 years later) when they took the power, only that they sized it. I read it as a native population regaining power.
And as others they maintained their dislike for the usurping Númenóreans:

Thus began the Third Age of the World ... The servants of Sauron were routed and dispersed, yet they were not wholly destroyed; and though many Men turned now from evil and became subject to the heirs of Elendil, yet many more remembered Sauron in their hearts and hated the kingdoms of the West.
- Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

In the days of Argeleb son of Malvegil, since no descendants of Isildur remained in the other kingdoms, the kings of Arthedain again claimed the lordship of all Arnor. The claim was resisted by Rhudaur. There the Dúnedain were few, and power had been seized by an evil lord of the Hill-men, who was in secret league with Angmar.
- Appendix A

And if they were hostile towards the Arnoreans in later days i deem them to been so earlier as well. I am convinced I even read a quote about Elendil fighting in the east against natives prior to the last Alliance, though since I can not find it now I leave it out of the equation.
Note that this is not an attempt to convince anyone that this situation is a fact, just an explanation to what the faction Hillmen of the North (not Hillmen of Rhudaur!) is based upon.

2)The provinces east of Morthond weren't part of Gondor for some centuries after the LA

Belfalas and Pelargir was for sure, Lossarnach and the Vale and such I am not sure about but the Stone of Erech in Lamedon was within Gondor's boarders when erected I thought?
Can you provide sources, Gondor's historical geography is not an area I dwelled into.

3) You have ommmited the Woodsmen

Intentionally; they will be represented as mercs for Numenoreans and Elves

4) I would give the Men of the Mts some more provinces and assign the Grey Mts to Dwarves

They expand fine as it is, trough first turn scripts and on own account.

The Dwarves did count the Grey Mountains/Ered Mithtin as theirs but they did not lived there to least any important degree while there lived Orks after the fall of Morgoth, as I read HoME 12; Of Dwarves and Men (page 302-303) and this:

But Thorin I [Thráin I's] son removed and went into the far North to the Grey Mountains, where most of Durin's folk were now gathering; for those mountains were rich and little explored.
- Year 2210 Third Age, Appendix A

5)the Elves of Mirkwood are located too south; When in Gladdens, Isildur's men were some days's travel before Thranduil's Kingdom

You have right, though that is not based on any position of Thranduil's forces, who had marched by just a few days before (see first quote) and eihter way could have a position unrelated to where the boarders were counted to be.
Instead see second quote;

"The vengeance of Sauron lives on, though he may be dead”, he said to Elendur, who stood beside him. "There is cunning and design here! We have no hope of help: Moria and Lórien are now far behind, and Thranduil four days' march ahead."
- UT; The Diastaster...

14 Long before the War of the Alliance, Oropher, King of the Silvan Elves east of Anduin, being disturbed by rumours of the rising power of Sauron, had left their ancient dwellings about Amon Lanc, across the river from their kin in Lórien. Three times he had moved northwards, and at the end of the Second Age he dwelt in the western glens of the Emyn Duir, and his numerous people lived and roamed in the woods and vales westward as far as Anduin, north of the ancient Dwarf-Road (Men-i-Naugrim).
- UT; The Diastaster...; Notes

The southmost province will thus start as rebel while what in vanilla TATW is Beorn's Halls will start as a Eryn Galen province instead
I should not made this mistake as the Amon Lanc province was left out due to this quote but such things happends

6)Wildmen of Minhiriath should've been a different faction (if a faction at all) from the early dunledings.

First I stress the fact that these were all related folk

Alien, too, or only remotely akin, was the language of the Dunlendings. These were a remnant of the peoples that had dwelt in the vales of the White Mountains in ages past. The Dead Men of Dunharrow were of their kin. But in the Dark Years others had removed to the southern dales of the Misty Mountains; and thence some had passed into the empty lands as far north as the Barrow-downs. From them came the Men of Bree; but long before these had become subjects of the North Kingdom of Arnor and had taken up the Westron tongue.
- These folks were kindred. Quote from Appendix F

Also it must be said that ’unfriendliness’’ to Numenoreans and their allies was not always due to the Shadow, but in later days to the actions of the Numenoreans themselves.Thus many of the forest dwellers of the shorelands south of the Ered Luin, especially in Minhiriath, were as later historians recongnized the kin of the folk of Haleth; but they became bitter enemies of the Numenoreans, because of their ruthless treatment and their devesation of the forests, and this hatred remained unappeased in their descendants, causing them to join with other enemies of Numenor. In the Third Age their survivors were the people known in Rohan as the Dunlendings.
- HoME 12; Of Dwarves and Men

Who have a recorded capacity to join forces against external threats

But all Aldarion's labours were swept away. The works that he began again at Vinyalondë were never completed, and the sea gnawed them. Nevertheless he laid the foundation for the achieve­ment of Tar-Minastir long years after, in the first war with Sauron, and but for his works the fleets of Númenor could not have brought their power in time to the right place - as he foresaw. Already the hostility was growing and dark men out of the mountains were thrusting into Enedwaith.
- Vinyalondë = Lond Daer. I read this as kindred folks from the eastern mountains supporting the woodfolks of Enedwaith, pointing at a capacity among this groups to join forces.
Quote from UT; Aldarion and Erendis

They were in awe of the Númenóreans, but they did not become hostile until the tree-felling became devastating. Then they attacked and ambushed the Númenóreans when they could, and the Númenóreans treated them as enemies, and became ruthless in their fellings, giving no thought to husbandry or replanting. The fellings had at first been along both banks of the Gwathló, and timber had been floated down to the haven (Lond Daer); but now the Númenóreans drove great tracks and roads into the forests northwards and south­wards from the Gwathló, and the native folk that survived fled from Minhiriath into the dark woods of the great Cape of Eryn Vorn, south of the mouth of the Baranduin, which they dared not cross, even if they could, for fear of the Elvenfolk. From Enedwaith they took refuge in the eastern mountains where afterwards was Dunland;
...
Glanduin means "border-river." It was the name first given (in the Second Age), since the river was the southern boundary of Eregion, beyond which pre-Númenórean and generally unfriendly peoples lived, such as the ancestors of the Dunlendings.
- UT; The History of Galadriel and Celeborn; The Port of Lond Daer

See also HoME 12; Tal-Elmar concerning the joint wars between native folk and the 'Fell People' (Northmen).
And if they could join forces more than once they could again. The people who lived in fougth the Númenóreans together, and even when driven away in different directions a later re-combined struggle is but logical to me.
The faction concept is that the folk of these lands maintained their hatred for their old enemies as they had during the War of Elves and Sauron. Inspired by Sauron they had been partly;

It was indeed their grievance, when the Shadow crept along the coasts and men whom they had befriended became afraid or hostile, that iron was used against them by those to whom they had revealed it.
- UT; Description of the Island of Númenor

The exiled natives welcomed Sauron and hoped for his victory over the Men of the Sea.
- UT; The History of Galadriel and Celeborn; The Port of Lond Daer

and even if nominally under Arnor (Minhiriath) and Gondor (Enedwaith) now, looking at the Men of the Mountain and subjected peoples at early Third Age [repeated quote] it is a fairly substaintial theory they could rise against the Númenóreans again at the end of the Second.

'But when Sauron returned and grew in might again, Isildur summoned the Men of the Mountains to fulfill their oath, and they would not: for they had worshipped Sauron in the Dark Years.'
- Aragorn, RotK; The Passing of the Grey Company

Thus began the Third Age of the World. ... The servants of Sauron were routed and dispersed, yet they were not wholly destroyed; and though many Men turned now from evil and became subject to the heirs of Elendil, yet many more remembered Sauron in their hearts and hated the kingdoms of the West.
- Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

One can argue that neither of these factions (Men of the Mountain or Wildmen of Enedwaith) should go to war aginst Arnor and Gondor but hey, beside aiming to be so lore-ish we can we're also trying to make a good game here hehe

That old hatred Saruman has inflamed. They are fierce folk when roused.
- Gamling about Dunlendings, an inspiring theme hehe
TTT; Helm's Deep

7)I would give to "Dunledings" the Westfold and Adorn's province, and make RK control the banks of Greyflood.

See #6

@ Duch-Balrog
No, it's not the Shire yet for a long time hehe.
It's intended to start as a village of minimal population to express the fact that the Dúnedain settlers were limited in number and (another) hint how the natives had to be subjegated and "cultivated" ; it's "within" the kingdom's boarders, just not yet administred
It's from plain game perspective also added for the faction to have something little more to do
May be changed

[Emrys]

The Lore!? You can't handle the lore!

[Ngugi]

[smoesville]

So i assume some things will be changed on the campaign map? Such as Hobbiton being a normal town of Men or as i possibly think would be better, just divide the Shire up between the provinces around it since it was a region of little population (it was the kings hunting grounds during the time of late Arnor and Arthedain).

[Ngugi]

Yes
No will keep it; given it a name reflecting when Galadriel, Celeborn and their entourage lived there (See UT)

[smoesville]

I thought they lived further north around Lake Evendim?

[Beorn]

@Ngugi

I didn't argue the existence of descendants of Bor's People at eastern Eriador; They were numerous, and in contrast to the Edainic people of Evendim, North Down and Weather Hills they weren't especially assimilated to the Numenoreans as their allegiance to the Witch King showed several generations later. I understand that an evil presence is needed for gameplay reasons at the north of Arnor, but I don't think they deserve their own faction. Regarding the quote from of the Rings of Power I consider it a frail argument for an evil faction up there, as I can think at least 4 other groups of people to whom the particular quote could be adressed with more credibility


It's well known that both the Wildmen of Minhiriath, the Dunledings and the Men of the Mts were close relatives, but
a) I doubt that the first 2 groups were communicating at all, being situated at the remaining forests of southern Minhiriath and the Feet of the Misty Mts respectively and not a network of villages spreading from Baranduin at the West to the vales of Anduin at the East as they did before the War of the Elves and Sauron
(I also doubt that the remaining Wildmen were more numerous than the Lossoth or the Druedain in order to warrant a faction).
b)Plus, it's a logical assumption that Arnor was controlling the northern bank of Gwathlo from Tharbad to Lond Daer Ened via small outposts and watchtowers, subsequently not allowing any communication between them unhintered


Regarding Gondor, it's stated in Appendix A, "The Númenorean Kings", "Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion" that Tarranon expanded his kingdom to the coasts South and West of the Mouths of Anduin To me this is interpreted as west of Belfalas, considering that Dol Amroth was already founded


Regarding Silvans, you're right; I didn't remember the part where it was stated that Thranduil was on march too and not already settled at home


Regarding Dwarves, in page 302 -303 and note 25 they're mentioned owning Eren Mithrin, Iron Hills, and the Eastern Hithaeglir from Gundabad to Moria before the War of the Elves and Sauron, and that they lost Gundabad and Mithrin at that. So IMO these 2 go together, either they're both Dwarven or both Orcish.


(Hope I'm not harsh, it's just that I consider the Dark Years, Middle Men and the Northern Kingdom my areas of expertise in Tolkien lore )


Edit: Smoesville is right, they lived at Emyn Uial