Lines of Battle 3.0: Information and Previews. Celtic Preview!

['Gunny]

Lines of Battle 3.0

Some of you may have seen the announcement in the old thread talking about the AOR system that will be introduced. Since then, Ahiga has joined the team and the mod is going from "Enhanced Vanilla" to a full scale overhaul based around tactical gameplay, flavorful factions, and, to an extent, realism. In this thread I am going to outline some of the big features we will be having in 3.0, some of these are already present in the released 2.6, but others will be entirely new.

More Tactical Battles:
The battles in Rome 2 vanilla are just that. Vanilla. Groups of men collide and twist every which way in a mediocre dance of death. Battles are over before you can even admire the amazing animations which CA have made. A melee should take time, as men deflect the blows of their enemies, and commanders adjust their positioning to get the best of the enemy, rather than a simple rush and a rout that takes all of 5 minutes. This is combated in several ways. Walking and running speeds are adjusted across the board so that units no longer have a sort of "Benny Hill" effect, but some lightly armored units will be able to run quite quickly, so there is actually a noticeable difference between the speeds of heavy infantry and light infantry. In addition to this, melee stats have been reduced and re-balanced across the board. Units have also been edited to keep their formations much better, and will only descend into an undisciplined mob on occasion. Morale, too, has been reworked, with morale effects being much more dynamic. Fatigue has also been given a rework, with its onset now coming faster, and its malus being heavier. A smart commander would do well to ensure exhausted units do not find themselves assailed by fresh reinforcements. These changes, along with a slew of other tweaks, serve to make battles in LoB a more enjoyable and tactical experience.

Progressive Area of Recruitment System:
In Rome 2, expansion is simple. Conquer a provinces, convert the buildings, recruit hoards of Praetorian Guard. Well, not in Lines of Battle. Lines of Battle will introduce a progressive AOR system. What this means is that certain units are only available in certain provinces. Praetorian Guards, for example, may only be recruited in Italian land. So what does this mean for expansion? When a faction conquers a province of a different culture, they will not be able to convert the building directly into a high tier barracks. Instead, it will be converted into a lower end barracks which will give access to low end troops of that culture. Eventually through upgrading the barracks, you will be able to recruit (in terms of a Roman example) Legionaries. This means for a Roman player that they must choose between an auxiliary barracks or integrating the province for greater long-term yield. This is just one example, however, and each faction will have it's own flavor of the AOR system.

Expanded native, auxiliary, and mercenary rosters:
This is fairly self explanatory I think. Each faction will have their rosters expanded or shaped into a more flavorful mold. This does not mean, of course, that suddenly every roster will be filled to the brim with silly fantasy units. Rather, it is based upon the following.

Unit Outline.

Rome: -Rome’s largely the same as before, with the addition of some units, and will later alongside Carthage benefit the most from the AOR/Auxilia system. Carthage: -Sorely lacking in vanilla, the Carthaginians receive additions and reshuffling of their roster. -Three ranks of Thureophoroi (Unarmored, spolas/thorax clad, and mail clad) are provided. -Libyan Infantry are transformed into a high end unlocked unit, representing a late era transformation into a more Iberian/Gallo-Roman style of fighting with javelin and sword instead of javelin and spear. -They have native access to numidian horsemen, nobles, javelineers and slingers in North Africa. -They have AOR access to a large Celtic, Iberian and Italic roster in those respective regions. -Expanded access to a few essential, widely used mercenaries (Celtic Swordsmen, Iberian Scutarii, ect.) Athens: -Access to three ranks of Thureophoroi (Unarmored, spolas/thorax, and mail) with spear and javelin -Militia Hoplites, Ekdromoi Hoplites (fast runners), Hoplites, Thureos Hoplites, Thorax Hoplites, and Elite Hoplites -Tech locked levy Phalangitai and Phalangitai -Iphicrates Hoplites - soft armored, with phalanx pelte and long spear. They can fight as spearmen or as a pike formation. -Light and Heavy Peltasts -Fairly weak in Cavalry. Epirus: -A large number of additional troops to improve their abysmal roster. -Access to the three ranks of Thureophoroi -Three ranks of Hoplites (militia, light, regular) -Three ranks of pikemen (Levy, regular, elite) -Agrianian Axemen as a melee strong skirmisher unit -Shield Bearers (Hoplites with javelins) -Royal Peltasts (sword and javelin) -Illyrian Coastal Levies -Illyrian Spearmen -Light and Heavy Peltasts -A number of cavalry (Prodromoi, Aspis Companions, Lancer Companions, Thessalians, Tarantines, Citizen Cavalry). Pontus: -Some changes and adjustments to their roster. -Three ranks of Thureophoroi -Tech locked “imitation legions” (light and armored) -Three ranks of hoplites (militia, light, regular) -Three ranks of pikemen (levy, regular, bronze shield) -Anatolian Hillmen and Eastern Spearmen -Light and Heavy Peltasts -Shielded Eastern Archers -Greek Citizen Cavalry, Companion Lancers, Scythed Chariots, Eastern Proto-Cataphract Companions, Eastern Medium Cavalry, and Eastern Javelin cavalry Macedon: -Some losses, some gains. -Thorax Swordsmen are removed (I have no references to them, welcome correction), in exchange they get Thracian Peltasts and Rhompania (light) in Thracia. -Three ranks of Thureophoroi -Three ranks of Hoplites -Four ranks of pikemen (Levy, regular, mail-clad, elite) -Royal Peltasts -Thracian Spearmen, Thracian Rhompania infantry, Thracian Peltasts -Light and Heavy Peltasts -Possibly native access to Cretan Archers given their intensive use. Otherwise national mercenary access. -Javelin cavalry, Tarantine Cavalry, Prdoromoi, Citizenry Cavalry, Thessalians, Aspis-Companions, Lance-Companions, Thracian Light Cavalry and Thracian Prodromoi. Ptolemies: -Some changes, gains and losses -Three ranks of Thureophoroi -Tech unlocked “Imitation Legions” (Unarmored and armored) -Levy Pikemen, Klerouchoi Pikemen, Guard Pikemen -Machimoi Pikemen and cavalry are locked until a tech reform. -Egyptian Lighter Spearmen, “Native Infantry”, and unarmored Egypto-Greek Archers/slingers/javelineers are available from the get go however. -Scythed Chariots are removed -Klerouchoi Thracian Light cavalry available. -Prodromoi replacing the generic light infantry -Elephants Seleucids: -Some changes, gains and losses to make them more historically accurate -Levy Pikemen (Greco-Asiatic) -Klerouchoi Pikemen -”Professional” Pikemen -Silver Shield Pikemen -Three ranks of thureophoroi -Royal Peltasts -Shield Bearers -Tech unlocked “imitation legions” (light and heavy) -Klerouchoi Galatian Swordsmen - unarmored and muscled cuirassed. -Light and Heavy Peltasts -Syrian Archers -4 Asiatic cavalry (light javelineers, medium and heavy melee, cataphract lancers), and 4 Greek cavalry (tarentine, citizen, companions, cataphracts) -Elephants and Scythed Chariots Parthians: -While they lose the unrealistically useful thorakitai swordsmen, they gain a number of other units. -Usual Sparabara Militia -Hillmen who upgrade into thureos axe/sword infantry -Eastern Spearmen -4 Iranian style cavalry (Javelin skirmisher lights, melee medium and heavy, and semi-cataphract lancers) -Parthian Horse Archers (Light), Noble Horse Archers (Heavy) -Cataphract Horse Archers, Lancers, and Royal Lancers -Camel Spearmen and Camel Archers Steppe Nomads: Are a work in progress, but we’ll be soon to update them. Barbarians (Germans and Celts): Are a work in progress, but we’ll be soon to update them.

Improved Campaign AI:
With the help of Josst (UAI mod), we have done some improvements to the AI. In addition to giving the AI some help with their food management (Thanks Mitch) we have also increased AI aggressiveness and change around some of their priorities. Eg: the AI will be less likely to spam low cost units like slingers, and will instead prefer to go for better units.

Other Battles Changes:
In addition to the aforementioned battle changes, there are some other larger changes to the battles. One of these involves the throwing weapons used by many factions. Rather than firing on the charge, these units will be able to fire at will, including whilst on the defensive. In our testing we have found that it does not negatively affect the AI, and is both more enjoyable, and realistic. Another major change involves Hoplites. Ahiga has changed around some of the Hoplite mechanics in order to make them more effective and useful as a unit.

Misc. and Integrated Mods:
There are, of course, many other assorted tweaks and changes that are going into LoB, mainly involving balancing and the like. However, there is another mod which we will be integrating as part of 3.0. Some may already be familiar with BullGod's Unit Icons Project, but for those who are not, there is the link. The mod is such a wonderful change that we feel it is a necessary addition to Rome 2. Ahiga will be modifying them as necessary for the new units, and we hope you all love them as much as we do.

Note: The Battle portion of the mod will still be available separately.

Additional Previews:
-German Preview
-New Event Pictures

[Biggus Splenus]

Exciting!

[zonks40]

Sounds great.

[laxos96]

Can't wait for the release, any date?

[Ravos]

Sounds like a leap in the right direction. Thank you guys for all your hard work.

[Heathen Storm]

I like the changes you have planned but I also see that you don't have anything for any Barbarian factions. Would you like some help? I'd be happy to advise you. I'm more affluent with the Germanic tribes than the Celts but I can still help with research.

[Dago Red]

No plans for 2-turns per year with building and tech times adjusted accordingly?

['Gunny]

No, not at the moment, though the standard 2 turns per year mod will be compatible, and it wouldn't be to difficult to do a submod to adjust things accordingly.

And Heathen, I sent you a VM.

Edit: Redacted. 2 Turns/Year will be the default for 3.0.

[Hellbent]

Congratulations on the hosted forum, Gunny!

[Akumu]

Yes, please show the barbarians some love. They really do need it(especially the Suebi).

[Le_Swede]

All this looks really promising. Looking forward to the release.

[Mr. Os]

About Epirus. I know its quite hard to get a roster for Epirus considering they were wiped out a year after the campaign start. But I would imagine Gunny/Ahira you'd take more liberty in their roster design. Considering you intend to add 'imitation legions'. I'd imagine if Epirus had survived longer, their continued attacks on Rome wouldve lead to them using imitation legions as a result. Much like how Carthage were beginning to near the end of their time with 'Libyan infantry'. We dont know what wouldve become of them, and thats whats so incredibly interesting about Epirus, go wild with their roster.

I look forward to what you do with the factions besides Rome. Because you have to remember, they are going to become empires if the player plays as them, so some ahistorical or 'whatif they went with this' units would be welcome, but lock them into higher techs.

[Riley702]

Will the battle and campaign mods be separated? This is definitely the best battle mod out there, but I may agree or disagree with some of the campaign changes and I would hate for that to ruin the mod for me.

[Ahiga]

Riley, he mentions Note: The Battle portion of the mod will still be available separately.

About Epirus. I know its quite hard to get a roster for Epirus considering they were wiped out a year after the campaign start. But I would imagine Gunny/Ahira you'd take more liberty in their roster design. Considering you intend to add 'imitation legions'. I'd imagine if Epirus had survived longer, their continued attacks on Rome wouldve lead to them using imitation legions as a result. Much like how Carthage were beginning to near the end of their time with 'Libyan infantry'. We dont know what wouldve become of them, and thats whats so incredibly interesting about Epirus, go wild with their roster.

I look forward to what you do with the factions besides Rome. Because you have to remember, they are going to become empires if the player plays as them, so some ahistorical or 'whatif they went with this' units would be welcome, but lock them into higher techs.

As of right now Epirus has an enhanced roster from their abysmal one in R2. The problem is..it's literally the same as Macedon's. Which is hard to escape as, and here's the most inflammatory and bigoted statement towards an ancient people of the balkans you will ever hear, "They were pretty much the same". Not literally, but both being peripheral late hellenized rural people with alexander the great half-Epirot and Pyrrus ruling Macedon for a time. It's difficult to get much of any distinction with the information I know of. So they do have hypaspists, royal peltasts, guard pikemen, mail clad pikemen, regular pikemen, unarmored pikemen, light and heavy peltasts, three ranks of Thureophoroi (Unarmored, spolas/thorax clad, mail clad), and so on. I think the only difference I could come up with is Epirus having aspis-bearer companions and Macedon Xyston bearing companions. Hence why having more Illyrian auxilia to Epirus and more Thracian to Macedon works. If it's super easy to change ownership of a settlement then maybe given the Taras "Brundisium" to Epirus and thus they can recruit Italic auxilia from the get go.

I'm not averse to theoretical/speculative units but I prefer them being based in the reality of a historical kernel - Seleucia and Ptolemies get light and heavy swordsmen later on because we have evidence of that (even though it's my opinion the Ptolemies at least were really just using Thureophoroi given all but 1 of the Thureophoroi grave depictions have spears with no visible swords), but even as late as 160s when the Carthaginians appear to have become entirely Thureophoroi, and the Seleucids and Ptolemies had their 'imitation legions' or the like, I have found no references of Imitation legions for Macedon (and then by association Epirus).

With Epirus, I had heard of him mixing in lighter and irregular Italic/Samnite/Oscan infantry among his phalanx to deal with the Romans - but as the spear and javelin were the primary arms of most of the Oscans that just supports the idea of Thureophoroi. We have to be careful with speculation as too much leads to "Everybody is the exact same roster wise" and the silliness of Parthia having imitation legionaries, Thrace having Cataphracts, and so on.

I need evidence of Epirus using hellenic swordsmen (not Peltasts with swords, but guys with just shield and just sword and javelins if they want but no 'spear and sword') to be able to consider it. Likewise for Macedon.

[biohazardcake]

looking forward to this, hopefully this will come out soon, also how will you deal with the balance of shock cavalry.

['Gunny]

Glorious German Preview

Design:

The Germans. Barbarians of the north whose skilled warriors defied Rome for centuries, eventually bringing about its downfall. In vanilla, we have found the German roster to be severely lacking. CA does do well with representing the earlier Germans, the fierce warrior tribes that fought during the struggle between Arminius and Germanicus, but after a while this roster grows stale. As time goes on the Germans remain the same: frightening and fierce barbarians with no real way to move forward, adopting better tactics and martial styles. What we have done, thanks to Heathen Storm, is set up Germans that are fun both in the early and the late game. You will be able to watch as the Germans become more organized and frightening, going from their light, ambush oriented troops to more heavy and fearsome troops like we see in the invasions that broke the Empire. The early roster remains much the same, with some minor name changes to better represent the Germans, but it is in the late period where our additions will become evident.

Units:

The Germans are now tiered differently than they were before. Longbows and Noble Horsemen are definitely late era. Your earlier units such as Sword and Spear Companions (Replacing Sword Masters and Wodanaz Spears respectively) will upgrade to Sword and Spear Thanes. These are late game units, who will have the ability to make a wedge formation and fight in a shield wall. Bloodsworn will also be upgraded to Germanic raiders: leather-clad light infantry whose ferocity is matched by their speed. The Suebi will also gain access to a new cavalry unit, Suebi Riders, who are similar to the Scout Cavalry, but are a better match to the fierce German cavalry described in De Bello Gallico. The Germans will also retain access to the Berserkers, as they are not too fantastical.


AOR Design:

The Germans will be getting a unique design to their AOR system. Unlike most factions, the Germans aren’t conquering and assimilating, rather, they are moving in. Upon conquering a location, the Germans will of course have initial access to a low level levy (say that 5 times fast) before they move in, eventually gaining access to their entire roster if the right buildings are built.


That’s all we have for now, hopefully soon we’ll get a preview out focusing on the Celts for the late game.

Also another note: I have talked to Dresden and we have decided to build 3.0 off of a 2 Turns/Year model.

[paradamed]

Other Battles Changes:
In addition to the aforementioned battle changes, there are some other larger changes to the battles. One of these involves the throwing weapons used by many factions. Rather than firing on the charge, these units will be able to fire at will, including whilst on the defensive. In our testing we have found that it does not negatively affect the AI, and is both more enjoyable, and realistic. Another major change involves Hoplites. Ahiga has changed around some of the Hoplite mechanics in order to make them more effective and useful as a unit.

Could you guys release this part of the mod like an open source stuff, pls? If this is actually possible this is mandatory for any other mod to have it.
How will you guys do it? Is it possible to have men armed with pilla/javelin without the skirmisher behaviour? Is it possible to choose which kind of projectile they use ingame?

Pls release this part the sooner you can, this is such and important addon, many people, if not all the community, would be grateful.

EDIT: After looking at ahiga's files and reading some tutorials, I figured out how to do it. It s actually kind of an easy fix. I just wonder why didndt CA do this themselves. This is one thing that particularly angered a lot of fans.
Anyway, thank you very much ahiga and all the team.

[Igor85]

What about adding some Galatians to Pontus?

[Mirni]

Wow i cant wait for this BIG THX
Battles in Rome 2 are funny and to short but this mod help my battles last longer i just hope you will make it more like in rome 1 when formations & lines work great.

['Gunny]

Just a small little bit of info here for 3.0. Tonight, Mitch decoded a table in the packs that will allow us to make changes to the event pictures. This means expect better pictures for certain events and not the same generic pictures that barely fit, like

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

for reinforcements arriving just doesn't make sense. Instead, expect some awesome art that is already in the game to be used more, and additionally expect Rome 2 concept art and other artwork to be used as well. Currently I am acquiring permissions from some artists to use their work, and already I've talked to one by the name of Daldbaatar, he's given permission for us to use this piece

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

of his, which will be scaled and implemented. Thanks again to him, and make sure to check out his deviantart which I've linked to over his name.

That's really all I have now, expect info on the Gauls and how we are overhauling Barbarian recruitment soon, once exam season is finished and also Ahiga is looking for some feedback in the suggestions thread, so be sure to head over there and give him some feedback. Also be sure to give Mitch some love too, and shower him with all sort of rep and praise. Without his assistance, we wouldn't be able to edit this table.