[Resource] Various Arms & Armor - actual images

[Dago Red]

Took a trip to the MET the other day and by tradition visited the Arms and Armor gallery. The MET has a vast collection but only a small portion (several hundred pieces and displays) on view at any time. What's more the lack of pieces from BC's time frame left in the world leave few actual pieces to look at -- at least in America. I imagine museums in Egypt and the like may have more.

But here's some real pictures of things I saw not too far off BC's time frame. Some items were recovered in other cultures armories, etc. Not all the exact origins are known.


Egyptian (or Turkish) Berdiche
Dated 1300's



detail:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Turkish shield - 1400's



Coat of mail and plate - Iranian or Anatolian
Iron. 1400's



Heavy Armors for Man and Horse
Comprehensive for Persian and Turkish heavy horse -- dated 1450
(these you have to stand next to and see for yourself. So impressive! it looks a bit small, but is all real and life sized)

[Dago Red]

Few others..

Turban Helmet
Persian or Anatolian. Dated 1400's
From Constantinople arsenal




Bascinet with visor
Italian. Steel. Dated 1380


Plate Armor
Italian. Steel and brass. Dated 1400.



From the MET "This armor was assembled and restored in the 1920s using individual elements that had been discovered in the ruins of the Venetian fortress at Chalcis, on the Greek island of Euboea, which had fallen to the Turks in 1470. The purpose was to present a full armor of the style worn about 1400, a period from which no complete armors survive. Distinctive features are the early form of brigandine (a torso defense constructed of numerous overlapping plates riveted inside a doublet) and the brass borders at the edges of the exposed plates."

[~Fell~Harlequin~]

Took a trip to the MET the other day and by tradition visited the Arms and Armor gallery. The MET has a vast collection but only a small portion (several hundred pieces and displays) on view at any time. What's more the lack of pieces from BC's time frame left in the world leave few actual pieces to look at -- at least in America. I imagine museums in Egypt and the like may have more.

But here's some real pictures of things I saw not too far off BC's time frame. Some items were recovered in other cultures armories, etc. Not all the exact origins are known.

...



Heavy Armors for Man and Horse
Comprehensive for Persian and Turkish heavy horse -- dated 1450
(these you have to stand next to and see for yourself. So impressive! it looks a bit small, but is all real and life sized)

This one is really interesting (and looks pretty cool too!). I was reading about the different horse types in the middle east area on another thread. I suppose if they made the horse models a little smaller and in scale to here it would definitely add a different feel to the game. Also read about the camels being quite tall and that troops using them tended toward spear and bow than melee weapons. Kind of makes sense to me.

Those different pieces of weapons and armour are very ornate.

Can't find the post to quote about the camels but that was quite interesting to me.

Really great pictures and effort mate, thanks. If I got rep - you get some.

Also thanks to Matmohair for posting pics of that Russian artist who in my eyes is on par with McBride in skill. Would most likely have never known that gentleman's work if it wasn't for seeing a few here.


.

[Dago Red]

Thanks. I highly recommend the Metropolitan Museum of Art for just about any interest, in any period of time. As for ours here, they have less on display than I would have hoped, but the collection rotates, so you never know what you'll get. The centerpiece in the Arms and Armor main hall has been a group of 16th century European knights for years now. It's not applicable here but really impressive. They are in full plate - the horses too. I'm not talking barding, but massive pieces of plate molded to the horses body -- it's not something you can get a feel for until you see it. They are so massive and thick. You couldn't pierce it with any weapon save a small cannon ball. Can't imagine the horses would last much longer than one big charge with all that weight.

This Syrian/Turkish/Persian horseman was a different beast entirely. More intricate, beautiful to look at, though much more vulnerable. Of course it is also from a time a couple hundred years earlier, in a hotter climate.

You can see good examples of things which are basically already found in BC, some of the actual pieces from the time which inspired the kind of art and units in the game... which speaks highly of the mod!

[Dago Red]

For Wudang:


A while back I kept referring to the Harafisha Infantry maces as being wooden clubs (in discussions about weapon match ups and issues against swordsmen) and was corrected for my hyperbole. I thought you might like this image of a decidedly finer kind of mace:

Crystal, copper gilt, Turkish, 1700's



Bit out of the time frame, but who's to say some didn't exist a few hundreds of years earlier too, it's not like crystal was a discovery of the modern era.
From the MET arms and armor collection.

[kingman1337]

Very nice.

[Heeehehe]

Coool! I looking for something like this! are you seeing this all in north america?

[Dago Red]

Coool! I looking for something like this! are you seeing this all in north america?

Yes, at the Met man, the MET. Arguably the greatest museum in the world, certainly in the west. Between it and the Natural History Museum on the other side of Central Park in Manhattan, you could spend a month blowing your mind.

The collection is enormous and only a small portion is on view at any one time (and that could still take you hours to walk through all the rooms reading and looking at everything which is arranged by world region and era). They highlight certain eras or regions of the world seasonally, rotating pieces out into exhibition from their vast collection. Most renowned for European and Japanese I think, but it's impressive all around as you can see. The centerpiece of the Arms and Armor permanent gallery is a group of late medieval European heavy horse knights in full plate -- we've all seen full plate before but you can't believe how thick and impenetrable that plate really is on the horses too. No AP arrow or bolt, pike or heavy axe would ever be able to penetrate it in a million years. These things would stop small arms fire.

Anyway... currently the featured highlight room is Tibetan arms and armor through Fall. Can't wait to see what's next. I'm hoping something from the Middle East, though they had Persian/Iranian gallery not long ago.

[Heeehehe]

Yes, at the Met man, the MET. Arguably the greatest museum in the world, certainly in the west. Between it and the Natural History Museum on the other side of Central Park in Manhattan, you could spend a month blowing your mind.

The collection is enormous and only a small portion is on view at any one time (and that could still take you hours to walk through all the rooms reading and looking at everything which is arranged by world region and era). They highlight certain eras or regions of the world seasonally, rotating pieces out into exhibition from their vast collection. Most renowned for European and Japanese I think, but it's impressive all around as you can see. The centerpiece of the Arms and Armor permanent gallery is a group of late medieval European heavy horse knights in full plate -- we've all seen full plate before but you can't believe how thick and impenetrable that plate really is on the horses too. No AP arrow or bolt, pike or heavy axe would ever be able to penetrate it in a million years. These things would stop small arms fire.

Anyway... currently the featured highlight room is Tibetan arms and armor through Fall. Can't wait to see what's next. I'm hoping something from the Middle East, though they had Persian/Iranian gallery not long ago.

I think i can shatter that plate armour with my punch, just kidding... or maybe not....

this video is about composite bow or more accurately mughal composite bow, but i think it have many similarity with the earlier composite bow.



maybe plate armour is not as impenetrable as you think

and i think you need to see more about martial art or thing that show how much a human can increase their body strength and ability it's really is amazing. i imagine how much power warrior at that time of many war have compared to this relatively more peaceful time

[Dago Red]

Heh, I linked to that same video on these forums once in regard to a discussion about arrow penetrations.

He's demonstrating a much earlier kind of plate armor though. Those wimpy plates he's shooting at are perhaps half the thickness of the full plate armor I'm talking about on view at the Metropolitan Museum in NY (and they didn't look or sound like steel). We know there were bodkin arrows and certain kinds of bows (as you show), etc that could actually pierce plate armor, but you have not seen the armor on these horses. First off this is steel, not iron plate and it is really thick and curved all over, easy to deflect blows and missiles. I agree the earlier forms of plate could be pierced as shown in this video, but this is late Medieval era as I said. Even then the common man's and lower nobility armor bought from trade faires and merchants might be susceptible to piercing then, but you'll have to see the custom-tailored, form fitting stuff i'm talking about -- the ones on permanent view are extremely rare, mid 16th century steel full plate armor for man and horse, and represent the very pinnacle of heavy armor before it began to decline with gunpowder warfare. I have seen many armors before but the first time I went up and got a close look at this stuff I was shocked.

I don't think there have been all that many advances made in steel hardening and shaping since this time really. Even today, a steel helmets are worn by modern soldiers and can sometimes stop small arms fire. Even still, the horses legs would be vulnerable though

[Heeehehe]

Hmmm i think i never see that kind of armour you talking about, so i don't think i have enough knowledge to arguing about it. But about the "Impenetrable" thing, I think you should consider the man power too, i actually believe some people can break that armour without any weapon (I have watch 2 brother that can destroy 3 stacks of special kind of concrete that used for car crash test, each stack have 13 concrete, each concrete 13 times stronger than average human bone and he destroy that 3 stack of concrete simultaneously -1 stack with his left hand, 1 stack with his head, 1 stack with his right hand. I think that man have more than enough power to destroy that "impenetrable" armour) what if that kind of man equipped with a weapon?

some weapon test use average people that have none/little martial ability and don't have a comparable strength to test it, i think it can't be counted as a fair test, for a weapon need their user power to be lethal .

and in the video the composite bow in use may not be the most heavy.

[Heeehehe]

btw have you ever read or watch something about Damascus Sword?

[Dago Red]

I believe you about the power of man to focus immense amounts of energy. Classical era Thracians would bring their Rhomphaia's down with great swings through Roman armor and flesh and bone and accounts say they would cleave them in half. They say the Roman's developed special helmets specifically to try and help counter it!
But there's a reason full plate heavy horse dominated battlefields for 200 some years during the pinnacle of their craft, even defending against gunfire for a long time (before massed gunfire and eventually rifled barrels made it impractical).

Regarding Damascus steel, yeah!

Little known fact: The steel did not come from the environs of Damascus, but the ores were said to be brought along the silk road from India. The craft with which the smiths made their famed weapons in Damascus seems to be lost but the key was some impurity in the ore which gave them their unique look -- and it's claimed a harder edge.

Harder than other steels or not, they were certainly more beautiful. You can tell by the wild patterns on the surface (though pattern welding can also produce this so just because it has that look, doesn't mean it's authentic).

This is a ridiculously lavish example, not to be representative of all weapons of this origin, because it's the saber of Sultan Murad V from the MET collection:



Close up of the tell tale pattern -- look closely at the steel blade itself (not the gilded decorations)

[VINC.XXIII]

I continue in the off with the contrary, then I prefere
Andalusian sword, used by muslims from there, probably too by the christians.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Work of Al-Mansur, MBmods

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.p...ic=115338.1080

[Heeehehe]

I believe you about the power of man to focus immense amounts of energy. Classical era Thracians would bring their Rhomphaia's down with great swings through Roman armor and flesh and bone and accounts say they would cleave them in half. They say the Roman's developed special helmets specifically to try and help counter it!
But there's a reason full plate heavy horse dominated battlefields for 200 some years during the pinnacle of their craft, even defending against gunfire for a long time (before massed gunfire and eventually rifled barrels made it impractical).

Regarding Damascus steel, yeah!

Little known fact: The steel did not come from the environs of Damascus, but the ores were said to be brought along the silk road from India. The craft with which the smiths made their famed weapons in Damascus seems to be lost but the key was some impurity in the ore which gave them their unique look -- and it's claimed a harder edge.

Harder than other steels or not, they were certainly more beautiful. You can tell by the wild patterns on the surface (though pattern welding can also produce this so just because it has that look, doesn't mean it's authentic).

This is a ridiculously lavish example, not to be representative of all weapons of this origin, because it's the saber of Sultan Murad V from the MET collection:



Close up of the tell tale pattern -- look closely at the steel blade itself (not the gilded decorations)

Hmmm i don't think full plate heavy horse dominated the battlefield , they never dominate the eastern armour anyway I think, the most plated muslim armour i ever see is perhaps the persian/mughal armour ( with Char-Aina) or maybe the ottoman armour, but i think it still dominated by chain mail. From what i know the muslim have the most advance technology in medieval era and if that kind of armour is very effective i think they already make that kind of armour, or maybe it just not that effective for the Easterner, i don't know about European martial art but i think most eastern martial art have a more complex technique that need more flexibility, from what I read in osprey there're some muslim warrior that prefer to fight without an armour, just think if you're a Kung Fu master (Kung Fu is just an example) i don't think you want to use too much rigid armour especially a kind like full plate armour (that will make some technique you learn almost useless!) and more specially when you have Damascus sword, it's said that this sword can cut through armour, shield, rock and the other kind of sword without making the sword dull, if that true than i think i don't need heavy armour to counter my enemy attack, my superior technique and sword is enough to win the fight.

"Harder than other steels or not, they were certainly more beautiful" they're beautiful

[Dago Red]

Hmmm i don't think full plate heavy horse dominated the battlefield , they never dominate the eastern armour anyway.

Well you're wrong, and right. Of course heavy horse in full plate dominated the battlefield! But only where they were used for centuries, in the west, not in the east. The entire evolution of warfare is linked to weapons being made to defeat an opponents armor and armor being developed to counter the weapons.... then weapons being developed to counter that armor. Then better armor being developed to counter those weapons. Sometimes it was cyclical. Afterall plate armor was an ancient invention used by the Greeks thousands of years ago, forged of bronze. The absolute height of this weapon vs armor arms race in the medieval era was full plate armor made of steel, an evolution made of thousands of years of human violence.

Even plate armor was defeated by armor piercing arrows, but the last incarnation of plate, made of hardened steel seems to have been impervious. It was only the increasing prevalence of cannons and that change this.

Here you can see a type of this late steel plate armor for heavy horse. See how huge and impenetrable it is? There's even an impact dent from a crossbow or musket or bodkin on the chest.




Here's an attempt at penetrating a steel breast plate with an armor piercing arrow that had earlier successes against iron plate before.... and at only 20 meters!





Interesting stuff... but this is too far off BC's time frame and region. However, I found a video showing armor piercing tests against armors of the time and region that's also interesting. The video gives no distances so it's hard to judge the exact effectiveness of these armors versus missiles... but whatever distance they used you can see all the armors arrayed were defeated by the Turkish bows and arrows -- except for the iron lamellar (at the end).

[Heeehehe]

Well you're wrong, and right. Of course heavy horse in full plate dominated the battlefield! But only where they were used for centuries, in the west, not in the east. The entire evolution of warfare is linked to weapons being made to defeat an opponents armor and armor being developed to counter the weapons.... then weapons being developed to counter that armor. Then better armor being developed to counter those weapons. Sometimes it was cyclical. Afterall plate armor was an ancient invention used by the Greeks thousands of years ago, forged of bronze. The absolute height of this weapon vs armor arms race in the medieval era was full plate armor made of steel, an evolution made of thousands of years of human violence.

Even plate armor was defeated by armor piercing arrows, but the last incarnation of plate, made of hardened steel seems to have been impervious. It was only the increasing prevalence of cannons and that change this.

Here you can see a type of this late steel plate armor for heavy horse. See how huge and impenetrable it is? There's even an impact dent from a crossbow or musket or bodkin on the chest.




Here's an attempt at penetrating a steel breast plate with an armor piercing arrow that had earlier successes against iron plate before.... and at only 20 meters!





Interesting stuff... but this is too far off BC's time frame and region. However, I found a video showing armor piercing tests against armors of the time and region that's also interesting. The video gives no distances so it's hard to judge the exact effectiveness of these armors versus missiles... but whatever distance they used you can see all the armors arrayed were defeated by the Turkish bows and arrows -- except for the iron lamellar (at the end).

wow, that's huge

so... I'm wrong, and right eh? I think i can accept that

good video btw, especially the last one

[Dago Red]

Yeah that last video shows a glimpse of the potential arrows had to pierce all kinds of light and even some medium armor. You can see various scale armor, at least 2 kinds of chainmail and various cloth and leather armors. What we don't know is the distance they were shooting from or if they were using the proper reinforcing materials (padded gambeson behind that tin scale armor? can't tell) Either way,a shield would have been a life saver!

[karaislam]

guys does someone know good texture archive? medieval clothes,armors etc.

[panzer 4]

any yataghan gonna be added?