Tolkien General Discussion II

[Tureuki]

-You strictly evaluate with the real historical facts(like you did with chariots), I don't, I'm just saying what we have directs us to a different cultural range, doesn't have to be exactly same with historical ones.

-No they did not, vast majority of the Mongol armies as well as all other steppe armies were cavalry, infantry was either poorest ones or levied foreign vassals.

-Vikings didn't had strong cavalry tradition, traditionally usage of cavalry in military was minimal, Normans got their cavalry tradition from Western Europeans, with the same reason of their cultural assimilation.(xD), you're right "successors" of Variags took their cavalry tradition from steppens.

[conon394]

Feanaro Curufinwe


Well it an easy argument to make with attenuated quotes and selected evidence and the fact of the PJ movies and good for your blog since it no doubt attract lots of hits...


Of course the defense is easy since there are in fact lots of white bad guys – Numenor and the Dunlings (descendants of the proto-edain turned bitter by clear cutting of good Numenor).


But perhaps the best is to recall in the HoME the proto-house of Beor are called swarthy, and the fact all men fell in their own origin story.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

Feanaro Curufinwe


Well it an easy argument to make with attenuated quotes and selected evidence and the fact of the PJ movies and good for your blog since it no doubt attract lots of hits...


Of course the defense is easy since there are in fact lots of white bad guys – Numenor and the Dunlings (descendants of the proto-edain turned bitter by clear cutting of good Numenor).


But perhaps the best is to recall in the HoME the proto-house of Beor are called swarthy, and the fact all men fell in their own origin story.

My blog?

[RuleBritannia]

Feanaro Curufinwe


Well it an easy argument to make with attenuated quotes and selected evidence and the fact of the PJ movies and good for your blog since it no doubt attract lots of hits...


Of course the defense is easy since there are in fact lots of white bad guys – Numenor and the Dunlings (descendants of the proto-edain turned bitter by clear cutting of good Numenor).


But perhaps the best is to recall in the HoME the proto-house of Beor are called swarthy, and the fact all men fell in their own origin story.

Not to mention Tolkien doesn't bash those the author deems discriminated against continuously. The Orcs are frequently beaten, but are described as fierce, strong, and loyal to their leaders when avenging them, and they've had victories. The Orcs mock industrialized England more than they mock those of Asian descent. The Easterlings and Haradrim were praised as fighting for their homes in certain wars and made known as amazingly good warriors in the battles they participated in. Then look at Isildur, who inadvertantly screwed the West over for an Age to come, or the Kin-strife, or the Maiar like Saruman or Sauron, or even the Vala like Morgoth. Or Saruman's ruffians.

The "Good White Guys" were prevalent, but they had just as many "Bad White Guy" counterparts.

[+Marius+]

I can not resist...bah

"No they did not, vast majority of the Mongol armies as well as all other steppe armies were cavalry, infantry was either poorest ones or levied foreign vassals."

Yes they did. I did not in any way even proposed that their armies were mainly infantry based, I merely said that they had heavy infantry units that were even more successful than their cavalry. In fact, if one actually reads history(something which you obviously do not do), one can see their main weight on the success of their campaigns of conquering lands were the shock type sieges they did by actually storming the walls instead of starving the castles/cities like every other steppe horde apart from them. They took the largest cities in the world.
Their heavy infantry was indeed numerous and did its job superbly.

"-Vikings didn't had strong cavalry tradition, traditionally usage of cavalry in military was minimal,"

You must be right, all the arguments you put in this conversation clearly show that you did a detailed research and did not in any way just type you're own preconceived notions.

"Normans got their cavalry tradition from Western Europeans, with the same reason of their cultural assimilation.(xD)"
Normans assimilated at the time of the battle of Hastings? Tell me more.

"you're right "successors" of Variags took their cavalry tradition from steppens."

Varangians had no succesors, they assimilated and their genes drowned in the numbers of Slavs and Greeks.

This is my last response to this topic, for da realz naw

You have you're idea of what they looked like, I have mine.
That is all.

[conon394]

My blog?

No I was referring to the link - it an easy ploy bash any popular author be it JRRT or Jane Austin in an over the top fashion and you get a responce... I did not mean to say it was you but simply why it was done and the means used was just the Standard SOP for JRRT bash.

[Tureuki]

-No they did not, please stop questining my historical knowlodge when you yourself has no idea what you're talking about, their success on sieges done by "dismounted" cavalry,they had no spesific infantry units for that, and it was mainly because they had artillery support from China.

-Again empty words, has no idea about even the basics of history.

-Yes they are, Duchy of Normandy established in 911, Hastings was at 1066, French language entered to Britain with Normans, gives any hints ?

-Their successors in the lands they ruled, is it more clear now ?

[+Marius+]

Dismounted cavalry

This may shock you, but when a horseman dismounts, and actually fights on foot...he becomes, you won't believe this, a footman:O

"artillery support from China"
They had their own artillery when they attacked the first chinese cities they came across and stuck with the same kind of arty all the way to the siege of Bagdad. Stop viewing history as some rts game.
This is pointless, and is turning into hostility for no reason:l

I imagine the entire Tolkien world as strictly Europe based, you do not.

Happy thoughts

[Mhaedros]

Seeing as Tolkien himself said it wasn't, I think its pretty clear it was in fact not based on Europe.

[PointOfViewGun]

Seeing as Tolkien himself said it wasn't, I think its pretty clear it was in fact not based on Europe.

He said that?

[Tureuki]

Fighting on foot in some occasions doesn't makes them infantry troops, you're saying they had numerous infantry, they did not, they just dismounted when they couldn't fight mounted, its like saying when archers forced to switch melee its makes them melee infantry, thats not their primary role.

They got their artillery when they captured the first cities, then used the technology they got againts others.

[muller227]

Actually he said that Hobbits live where they have always lived in the Old northwest of ME it is in the Prologue too LotR. I personally view Tolkien as Primarily linguistic and faith based rather than historical or racial. His men too me are neither good or evil they are more based on the level of Valaric truth, or Morgothian Lies that make up their society. A gondorin worrying about who his forefathers were and thinking himself better because of them is an idiot or worse sometimes much, much worse, while a brave Easterling or Haradrim holding out too the last on Pelennor fields is worthy of praise despite his misguided cause. With the exception of Grima no man in LotR is a coward,(and even he redeems himselfs well sort of in the end) no man runs from his duty, Rohirrim, Dunedain, Dunlending, Gondorin, Haradrim, Easterling, Dalesmen and Woodsmen all stand too. Men on the evil side fight as as bravely as men on the good side, well dunlendings were afraid of walking killing trees can't say I think that a weakness. This ideal of courage even in defeat among all men is something that fascinates me in Tolkien's works. I personal think they all knew about that whole undead you suck thing the men of the mountain had going on.

Orcs well they are a view he had of all modern man absolutely I think not too be confused with the men of Middle Earth, especially Europeans andEDIT( European based cultures) practicing Industrial culture and war. badly said that, he was much more eloquent.

Much is made of what he described as beautiful, Dark Hair and fair skin, take a look at his wife in her youth DUH!!!, though I bet Edith herself was not all that fond of tall Athletic Blonde women.

I find it laughable that anyone thinks Tolkien had hidden messages or an agenda, he wrote what came to mind and was all over the damn place like most of us. Argued with himself more than I do it seems and that is quite a feat let me tell you. Try and read his essays on the origination of orcs and what happens too their spirits IF they have them in Myths Transformed, if you are absolutely certain afterwords let me know, because he gave me a damn headache. Reading Tolkien other than the Hobbit and LotR usually gives me a combined Budweiser/Excedrin issue. I keep reading and rereading with a fair bit of muttering and cursing because I like Budweiser. Galadriel is confusion personified. I really need another hobby.


Most of all he wrote from a personal level and viewpoint of the world he lived in and experienced, experiences that included horrors that I have never faced, and I sincerely hope none here have. He wrote what he knew and/or believed emotionally, logically, philosophically and metaphysically it is what makes his world so powerful and real. Other authors think about and create their world and write it down for us too read, some beat us over the head with it, leaving nothing too chance. Tolkien lived in his world somehow and gave us a confused and meandering report, for us too figure out and evidently argue passionately about, kinda like the real thing.

The cynicism in the Foreword of LotR about how the actual war if his world was realistic, would have went is of course something few think about. Completely devoid of the romance and terror of ME, it is our world and you just go yeah probably.

Good God this Post got long I blame Anheuser/Busch

[Thangaror]

The depiction of the men of the East and South as middle-eastern is entirely the fault of Peter Jackson. If one actually reads the descriptions in the book and combines them with the age in which they were written one could see that the men of the East, especially around Rhun are actually based on the Slavic/Viking Rus(in fact Tolkien uses the name Variag for one of the main groups which is the second historical term for the slavs of nordic descent called by the Byzantines Varangians/Variags; the men of the Volga).

I actually endorse this theory. It seems very plausible and I like it very much. OTOH we of course do not know a lot about the Easterlings, therefore, given that there were many, many tribes, some might be slavic, others of "mongolian" culture. It's pretty certain that some tribes were more migratory than others and some definitively used mounted archers. I honestly do not know whether the Rus and Varangians ever used mounted archers. I think the only caucasian people of modern day Russia and Ukraine who relied on horsemen were the Goths and Alans.

As for the Men of the South, the men of Umbar and the Men of Harradim have Carthage written all over them: a singe huge main city(described as second largest in the Kingdom at the time Gondor ruled it) in the south surrounded by steppes and desserts using a large fleet and huge elephants relentlessly attacking it's northern neighbor because of the hatred they feel for the wars of the past...yeah

The province Africa was highly fertile and we also do not actually know if there were deserts around Umbar. But again, a nice analogy.

The word Variag was probably a coincidence, or a borrowing limited only on the word itself, since its seems like the people referred as Variags has nothing with historical Nordic-Slavic Variags, Tolkien's were horse breeders&horsemen.

Tolkien was a linguist. "Coincidence" as an argument doesn't work here.

They had their own artillery when they attacked the first chinese cities they came across and stuck with the same kind of arty all the way to the siege of Bagdad.

Not exactly, IIRC. They had to abandon their first sieges because they didn't know engines powerful enough to take the walls. But they learned quickly and adapted chinese constructions.

[Ngugi]

The lack of understanding for the word inspiration always keep on to surprise me when people talk about Tolkien's creation. Endorce a dictionary, please
Now, with that said...


Variags in Tolkien's world has nothing to do with horses, we know nothing about the people beside the name, and that they come from Khand - actually the only two known Easterling words post-First Age - thus not their looks, gear, fighting style: nothing.

Personally I think JRR has used a free mix of easterling inspiration from a historic Brittish perspective, where about everyone are easterlings until America is found, as well as inspiration from elswhere - and to try to say "JRR's Easterlings look like X" is presumably as menaningful as to say "All Asian look like Russians". Easterling is not an etnicity [clearly stated already in HoME 11: the Grey Annals or Silmarillion; Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin], and the descriptions we get are most likley intentionally very broad and unhelpful.
Presumably no named Easterling folk are even an in-world etnicity actually;

The Wainriders were a people, or a confederacy of many peoples, that came from the East; but they were stronger and better armed than any that had appeared before.
- Appendix A

This is just my own thoughts on his inspiration for what we have to work with;
Variags - name for sure from the Norsemen/Anglosaxon troops in Rome* as it is to obvious to be a "mistake" indeed but no opinion on any looks

Khand - A very "Eastern" name. It has connection to Indian names, while I personally rather think of Kand from Central Asia, found in the name Samarkand [kand = town or fort] for example

Wainriders - think it's from Biblical inspiration combined with historical knowledge: the Assyrians , the Babylonians, Philistines and Egyptians (and even the Israelites themselves) etc

Balchoth - we have nothing to go on with them; as it is a Sindar word it may be as useful for us as the term Easterling for anything (a.k.a useless)

24 So these people were then called in Gondor: a mixed word of popu­lar speech, from Westron balc "horrible" and Sindarin hoth "horde," applied to such peoples as the Orcs. [Author's note.]
- footnote, UT; Cirion and Eorl and the friendship of Condor and Rohan

Axemen - Think they are inspired by Vikings/Anglosaxons, while not Variags themselves;

The new host that we had tidings of has come first, from over the River by way of Andros, it is said. They are strong: battalions of Orcs of the Eye, and countless companies of Men of a new sort that we have not met before. Not tall, but broad and grim, bearded like dwarves, wielding great axes. Out of some savage land in the wide East they come, we deem.
- Ingold, RotK; The Siege of Gondor

Think that's all we got


Either way it rule out nothing, as when it comes to inspiration Tolkien can pick parts from 20 different peoples if he liked to to make up one people of his own, meaning they are no IRL historic folk while also being all of them.
North- and East-European inspiration, Middle-eastern and central Asia inspiration, it is safest to be open to any inspiration since there are nothing useful to go on - and avoid claiming any "truths". As example I think Variags have the name from the Norsemen/Anglosaxons but will not say they look or are [like] them - because it is just a theory. Likewise the "Axemen" sounds much like Norsemen/Anglosaxons to me but I can not say they are such. Or rohirrim, they have obvious inspiration from anglosaxons, but they are not "copy pasted anglosaxons", obvious trough their own presented culture, only inspired by anglosaxons.
It's not like the cultures are isolated either;

...[Gondor] gave [Northmen] wide lands beyond Anduin south of Greenwood the Great, to be a defence against men of the East.
In the days of Narmacil I their attacks began again, though at first with little force; but it was learned by the regent that the Northmen did not always remain true to Gondor, and some would join forces with the Easterlings, either out of greed for spoil, or in the furtherance of feuds among their princes.
- Appendix A

What about "swarthy" by the way? Well, we can, considering the meaning of the word at least around 1950, say that the Easterlings are like Greek or Italians based on that word hehe, or sunburned vikings, or persians, arabs, mongols etc. Again, it do not help, especially when Gondorians, Breelanders, Bëors folk, some branches of Hobbits etc are swarthy.


*I don't like to call is Byzantium since they never called it so

[knight of meh]

@muller you are mistaken on the origins of Varangians it is not a people in it's original form it translates to "pledge" and "companion" and it refers to the guard of the Byzantine emperor and to the almost exclusively military settlers of the Rus states and Volga area(most of them were vikings/swedes it seems from evidence) and so they were not men from the Volga they just happened to rule there for a while



in relation to Umber and deserts being nearby two things to consider Harondor was described as a "desert" region whether that means no water or no people is open to interpretation

and the deserts of Harad are mentioned in relation to far Harad

also Thangaror only the very tips of north africa isn't considered a desert , a desert is not somethnig to do with fertility it exclusively measures moisture per annum if you lose more moisture than you acquire in a year then you are in a desert

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wo...st_deserts.svg

[athanaric]

also Thangaror only the very tips of north africa isn't considered a desert , a desert is not somethnig to do with fertility it exclusively measures moisture per annum if you lose more moisture than you acquire in a year then you are in a desert

There's still large parts of the Atlas region that are decidedly not a desert, including rainfall and all that. That map is inaccurate.

[muller227]

@muller you are mistaken on the origins of Varangians it is not a people in it's original form it translates to "pledge" and "companion" and it refers to the guard of the Byzantine emperor and to the almost exclusively military settlers of the Rus states and Volga area(most of them were vikings/swedes it seems from evidence) and so they were not men from the Volga they just happened to rule there for a whil

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wo...st_deserts.svg

Umm!! not sure why you pointed this at me, I have made no comment about Varangians in any thread, ever. Might want too look back and PM the person you meant too address or remind me of something I said and have forgotten. The Varangian Guard by its latter stages anyway was largely recruited from Anglo/Saxons as a counter balance too Norman Expansion. Look to Runciman and his work on the Crusades. A contemporary at Oxford of Tolkien I do not think the famed Varangian Guard has any point in Tolkien's work whatsoever. Their is at no point anything referring to an oathbound alien Guard Unit whose commanders could be no threat too the throne. If you kind find such a reference to the Varangian Guard in Tolkien let me know, I have never seen anything that resembles this historical unit.

[Tureuki]

Ngugi

Are you saying is that non-canon ?

"Khand was under the influence of Mordor and supplied it with horses"

the word "Khand" at least historically has Sogdian origins, both used in Iranian languages and Turkic, its mean town, fort as you said.(later changed to village,small settlement at least in Turkish)

I think "Balchoth" is probably inspired from "Balouch" but we can't exactly say, same for Variags, its explained as a word from Harad language, thats why I'm saying we can't know if its an inspritation or a coincincidence.

[Ngugi]

@ Tureuki

Yes it is; until anyone can present and actual Tolkien source that is, which so far I never seen (while I've seen that stamenent presented over and over on the internet).
At best it can be suggested they had cavalry due to the second UT entry, but that can be nothing but a guess without reliability as the cavalry may belong to the Wainriders themselves (elsewhere it's stated their lords rode chariots, not that they lacked cavalry *) and other allied folks.
This is the info we have on them (yup, it's all); **

Many of the Wainriders now passed south of Mordor and made alliance with men of Khand and of Near Harad; and in this great assault from north and south, Gondor came near to destruction.
- about 1899-1944 Third Age, Appendix A; Annals of the Kings and Rulers: Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion

On the one hand they feared the might of Gondor, and knowing nothing of what passed west of Anduin they believed that its realm was larger and more populous than it was in truth at that time. On the other hand the eastern Wainriders had been spreading southward, beyond Mordor, and were in conflict with the peoples of Khand and their neighbours further south. Even­tually a peace and alliance was agreed between these enemies of Gondor, and an attack was prepared that should be made at the same time from north and south. (...)

But it was not so. The Wainriders had mustered a great host by the southern shores of the inland Sea of Rhûn, strengthened by men of their kinsfolk in Rhovanion and from their new allies in Khand. When all was ready they set out for Gondor from the East, moving with all the speed they could along the line of the Ered Lithui, where their approach was not observed until too late. So it came to pass that the head of the army of Gondor had only drawn level with the Gates of Mordor (the Morannon) when a great dust borne on a wind from the East announced the oncoming of the enemy vanguard. This was composed not only of the war-chariots of the Wainriders but also of a force of cavalry far greater than any that had been expected.
- same period, Unfinished Tales; Cirion and Eorl and the friendship of Condor and Rohan

[The Witch-king] now was destroyed; but Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray; Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand, Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues.
(...)
East rode the knights of Dol Amroth driving the enemy before them: troll-men and Variags and orcs that hated the sunlight. South strode Éomer and men fled before his face, and they were caught between the hammer and the anvil.
- RotK; The Battle of the Pelennor Fields

The lack of cavalry association from the War or the Ring do not encourage horse-related associations. ***

The case with Balchoth can not for sure be said to equal the case with Variags.
EDIT: There exist no Easterling (or Haradrim) language, meaning the name Variag can not be a result of a constructed language's grammar and/or dictionary; it can only be an intentional choice that is not inspired by the historical Variags/Varangians if we belive Tolkien lacked knowledge about them, considering his historical and linguistic interest that is less credible - while Balchoth being based on made up languages do not have to be based on RL material.
In their case it may be so that Tolkien intended the Anduanic-Sindarin speakers (Dúnedain) to talk about eastern wicked Men as "Horrible Horde", fitting other generic associations to "hordes from the east" as Huns, Mongols, Turks etc. Which in the made up languages ackording to wordlist and grammar ends up to be Balchoth, unrelated to Balouch.
However I must say I find the connection to Balouch most intrigueing and wouldn't object to anyone claiminig it as as credible theory.

To my knowledge we have no reason to assume it was not the Khand inhabitants names in their own language; if to count them to Rhûn or Harad may then be another matter hehe

...

Of the speech of Men of the East and allies of Sauron all that appears is múmak, a name of the great elephant of the Harad.

A carbon copy F 4 is extant, and here my my father in a similar addition named beside múmak also Variag and Khand...
- HoME 12; The Appendix on Languages: Commentary

Based on geography and that Rhûn and Harad are subjective titles from the POV of the West I deem it more likley they are to be counted as Easterlings.


EDIT: *

They journeyed in great wains, and their chieftains fought in chariots.
- Appendix A

**
To my knowledge, that is.

***
By which I do certainly not mean they had no cavalry, only that we have no backing to say they were a horse-oriented folk

[knight of meh]

Umm!! not sure why you pointed this at me,.

sorry i got confused with all the people talking

There's still large parts of the Atlas region that are decidedly not a desert, including rainfall and all that. That map is inaccurate.

you have misunderstood me.. or maybe i have badly communicated my point i never said the map was accurate i just meant that it shows roughly the desert regions .