Tolkien General Discussion II

[Lortano]

So I go on holiday, come back, and I find the forum emroiled in another Tolkien related race arguement?

'Picks up suitcase and walks right back out the door'

[Duke of Metz]

So I go on holiday, come back, and I find the forum emroiled in another Tolkien related race arguement?

'Picks up suitcase and walks right back out the door'

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

So I go on holiday, come back, and I find the forum emroiled in another Tolkien related race arguement?

'Picks up suitcase and walks right back out the door'

It isn't near as bad as the one in the previous thread.

[Carl Jung was right]

Moving on...

Were there any other ring wraiths beside the 9? I know that "wraith" was a rather loose term present widely in Tolkien lore, like for instance, in reference to the barrow wights and other foul creatures. But what I'm curious about were those stabbed with Morgul blades and became lesser minions of the nazgul, with similar undeath characteristics.

The reason why I'm asking is because I intend to create a "ringwraith" bodyguard for the Mordor faction leader in TaTW, and let "Black Numenorean Bodyguards" be a recruitable cavalry unit. It would be nice to know if there was any canon basis to this idea.

[Lortano]

Ring Wraiths specifically referred to those who were corrupted by the Nine, but I know what you mean. From what I have read (There is a quote somewhere) if one is stabbed by a morgul blade and becoems a wraith, they become like the Nazgul but 'Lesser'. In short they would be less powerful than the Nazgul and subserviant to their will, which is the will of Sauron.

In any case, I think they'd only use a morgul blade on special occasions, to people they couldn't afford to kill, or that it would be easier to bend them to their will (Eg: Frodo). So I don't honestly think there is any basis for Ringwraith cavalry, because they'd probably be slavering idiots as opposed to badass Nazgul wannabees.

[Flinn]

Officially there are only 9 Ringwraiths, the Nazguls; whether there could are others transformed into "wraiths" by their blades or by any other mean is debatable, undoubtely there were wraiths on the Barrow-Downs, but they seems to me to have a different nature (possibly being lesser Mayar, while the Nazguls were all humans).

Anyway, if sticking with the suggestion of the good Lortano, even if some enslaved wraiths would exist, I doubt they could be used with military purposes, as it seems that this "feature" of the Morgul blades was meant to be a sort of punishment to enslave the enemy forever.

anyway, some references on wraiths in Tolkien's word

In the Elder Days, the wraith of Gorlim appeared in a dream of Beren.^[3]

In the Second Age, the Men of the White Mountains broke their oath to Isildur. This crime combined by Isildur's curse turned the Oathbreakers into shades who haunted the mountains^[4], until Aragorn II, in the capacity of the Heir of Isildur, released them.^[5]

In the Third Age, it was rumoured that the wraith of Helm Hammerhand haunted the enemies of Rohan, killing those who felt fear.^[6]

The most famous of the wraiths were the Ringwraiths, Men ensnared by Sauron's Nine Rings.^[7] Some of the victims of the Ringwraiths, too, could be transformed into wraiths, albeit lesser and under their command (although no such being is known to have existed).^[2] This nearly happened to Frodo Baggins, after having been stabbed by the Morgul blade of the Witch-king.^[1]

at any rate, the only known men who was killed by a Morgul blade, was Boromir (the eleventh Steward of Gondor), but he did not become a wraith.

If you want to change the Nazguls' bodyguard you can stretch it a little bit by putting some other fictional wraith to fill the ranks, but anyway there won't be real sources to it (but anything about Nazguls' bodyguard is fictional, there are no real references for them to have black numenoreans bodyguard or any other, and I doubt that any but the strongest willed men would be able to stand close to them). If you want to add some extra cavalry to Mordor you can pick some levy troops from its most known allies, Ruhn and Harad, though Mordor should really have direct control over little to none cavarly, for lore reasons.

[Cyclops]

Indeed, though there were broad farmlands by the bitter sea of Nurn, there wasn't much forage to be had around Barad Dur. I wonder what fell meats the Flying Beasts were fed? Supernumary orcs I bet.

There are some horrible Watchers at Cirith Ungol, and something sinister in Minas Morgul; that might be wraiths bound into objects. Had Frodo succumbed to the Morgul blade he might have ended up as a glorified doorbell on some fell fortress of the Dark Lord.

[Lortano]

The thought of Elijah Wood being punched in the the face and then a tiny doorbell ringing makes me happy.

[Infidel144]

If you want to add some extra cavalry to Mordor you can pick some levy troops from its most known allies, Ruhn and Harad, though Mordor should really have direct control over little to none cavarly, for lore reasons.

Certainly not 'none'. Mordor does seem to have had its own cavalry:
"As the terrible cry ended, falling back through a long sickening wail to silence, Frodo slowly raised his head. Across the narrow valley, now almost on a level with his eyes, the walls of the evil city stood, and its cavernous gate, shaped like an open mouth with gleaming teeth, was gaping wide. And out of the gate an army came.

All that host was clad in sable, dark as the night. Against the wan walls and the luminous pavement of the road Frodo could see them, small black figures in rank upon rank, marching swiftly and silently, passing outwards in an endless stream. Before them went a great cavalry of horsemen moving like ordered shadows, and at their head was one greater than all the rest: a Rider, all black, save that on his hooded head he had a helm like a crown that flickered with a perilous light."
TT, The Stairs of Cirith Ungol

"He let go. Frodo followed. And even as they fell they heard the rush of horsemen sweeping over the bridge and the rattle of orc-feet running up behind. But Sam would have laughed, if he had dared. Half fearing a breaking plunge down on to unseen rocks the hobbits landed, in a drop of no more than a dozen feet, with a thud and a crunch into the last thing that they had expected: a tangle of thorny bushes. There Sam lay still, softly sucking a scratched hand."
RotK, The Tower of Cirith Ungol

[Lortano]

Yes, but it isn't specific about these horsemen, so we have no idea if they were Horsemen of Rhun who acted as bodyguards, or even Haradrim!

In any case, a much more sensible idea would be to follow Flinn's advice and use the levy horsemen idea.

[Infidel144]

Yes, but it isn't specific about these horsemen, so we have no idea if they were Horsemen of Rhun who acted as bodyguards, or even Haradrim!

Unlikely to be bodyguards as it was a 'great cavalry'.
Coming east out of the Morgul vale, unlikely to be Rhun (who would more likely come from the north).
Dressed in black, unlikely to be the Haradrim.
Not to mention the terror of Minas Morgul. I would think it more likely 'native' Mordorean troops who would be 'accustomed' to it.

[Lortano]

Yes, but what if they stationed the horsemen in the city beforehand and then they rode out with the Witch King? Some Rhunnic people would probably be more ready to fight Gondor than others, so may have ridden ahead to Minas Morgul in order to join the main force attacking Minas Tirith. Dressed in black.....maybe Mordor practises a strict dress code? In all seriousness though, considering that there is only one or two scenes where they appear, and they are not really explained I find it very difficult to put them in the game at all, (Don't you dare say they were Black Numenoreans!)

They might have been Wraiths, but I find that unlikely as they aren't mentioned again, so probably Haradrim or Rhunnic horsemen who have served the Witch King for a while in Morgul.

[Ngugi]

The theories that it is 'local cavalry' or 'drafted cavalry' are about as credible. On one hand because we know cavalry from the East marched into Mordor and because we know Orcs stole horses in Rohan and brought to Mordor (both: TTT).

[Infidel144]

Yes, but what if they stationed the horsemen in the city beforehand and then they rode out with the Witch King? Some Rhunnic people would probably be more ready to fight Gondor than others, so may have ridden ahead to Minas Morgul in order to join the main force attacking Minas Tirith.

As I attempted to indicate above, I think it unlikely that 'foreign' troops would have been in Morgul, because of the terror of the place.

Dressed in black.....maybe Mordor practises a strict dress code? In all seriousness though, considering that there is only one or two scenes where they appear, and they are not really explained I find it very difficult to put them in the game at all, (Don't you dare say they were Black Numenoreans!)

I was doing this as general discussion, not in reference to TATW.
But Black Numenoreans... good idea...

They might have been Wraiths, but I find that unlikely as they aren't mentioned again, so probably Haradrim or Rhunnic horsemen who have served the Witch King for a while in Morgul.

Nothing indicates they are Wraiths, so even 'unlikely' is granting too much. I'd still say more likely to be native Mordorean troops.

[Lortano]

I'd still say more likely to be native Mordorean troops.

But 'Natives' would mean Orcs and trolls. As far as I'm aware orcs do not ride horses becuase they tend to be too small to do so. There are no men native to Mordor that I'm aware, and Sauron feared and hated men, so why would he keep them cwithin his sanctum, unless they were utterly subserviant to him, such as the Witch King?

This debate started because someone wanted to mod in Wraith cavalry into Third Age, so I was referring to that. As it has now progressed into a fully fledged debate, then we'll just ignore that.

The terror of Morgul is known, but what if they were sent there as young men to help guard the place?

[Infidel144]

But 'Natives' would mean Orcs and trolls. As far as I'm aware orcs do not ride horses becuase they tend to be too small to do so. There are no men native to Mordor that I'm aware, and Sauron feared and hated men, so why would he keep them cwithin his sanctum, unless they were utterly subserviant to him, such as the Witch King?

Men dwelt in Mordor, primarily about Nurn (the slave worked fields). After the downfall of Sauron, these lands were given to them by Aragorn.

This debate started because someone wanted to mod in Wraith cavalry into Third Age, so I was referring to that. As it has now progressed into a fully fledged debate, then we'll just ignore that.

Yeah, I ignored that, as it was handled well enough. I just wanted to point out that Mordor has its own cavalry in LotR.

The terror of Morgul is known, but what if they were sent there as young men to help guard the place?

Possible, but then I might consider them as 'native', if by that you mean they were perhaps acquired as youths, and raised there in Morgul/Mordor.
I just doubt that the cavalry was actually Harad or Rhun troops, that was mustering at Minas Morgul.

[Lortano]

Men dwelt in Mordor, primarily about Nurn (the slave worked fields).

Yes, the Slave fields, why would they use slaves as horsemen that were close to the Witch King? Slaves would suggest that they were chained against their will and why would they risk a rebellion within their army? However they might have taken babies from the slave population and raised them (Which brings up images of the Witch King changing nappies) in order to change them into a cavalry force. Considering how long Sauron had in Mordor after he declared himself, this may have been the first time he had used these native cavalry forces.

Or Tolkien didn't explain it because he didn't have anything planned about them!

[Greymane]

Is it such a stretch to assume Uruks can ride horses? Or that there were men that lived in Mordor?
Tolkien never really elaborates, but since the Mouth of Sauron is described (more or less) as a man riding a (ghastly) horse, isn't it reasonable to assume that Sauron had human soldiers riding horses under his direct control? Whether they did originally come from Harad, Rhûn or were loyal men living in Nurn (so not really slaves), if they existed at all, is something we will probably never know.
About the Morgul legion: Minas Morgul is described as such a scary place that I very much doubt Easterlings would go into the city, much less ride together with Orcs and the Witch-king.

[Dude with the Food]

Weren't the Variags supposed to have supplied horses to Mordor? Other than that, I'd go with the Nurn theory. Slaves often trained as soldiers and were often very loyal. (Janissaries/Mamluks)

[Infidel144]

"Frodo and Sam gazed out in mingled loathing and wonder on this hateful land. Between them and the smoking mountain, and about it north and south, all seemed ruinous and dead, a desert burned and choked. They wondered how the Lord of this realm maintained and fed his slaves and his armies. Yet armies he had. As far as their eyes could reach, along the skirts of the Morgai and away southward, there were camps, some of tents, some ordered like small towns. One of the largest of these was right below them. Barely a mile out into the plain it clustered like some huge nest of insects, with straight dreary streets of huts and long low drab buildings. About it the ground was busy with folk going to and fro; a wide road ran from it south-east to join the Morgul-way, and along it many lines of small black shapes were hurrying.
'I don't like the look of things at all,' said Sam. 'Pretty hopeless, I call it - saving that where there's such a lot of folk there must be wells or water, not to mention food. And these are Men not Orcs, or my eyes are all wrong.'
Neither he nor Frodo knew anything of the great slave-worked fields away south in this wide realm, beyond the fumes of the Mountain by the dark sad waters of Lake Núrnen; nor of the great roads that ran away east and south to tributary lands, from which the soldiers of the Tower brought long waggon-trains of goods and booty and fresh slaves. Here in the northward regions were the mines and forges, and the musterings of long-planned war; and here the Dark Power, moving its armies like pieces on the board, was gathering them together. Its first moves, the first feelers of its strength, had been checked upon its western line, southward and northward. For the moment it withdrew them, and brought up new forces, massing them about Cirith Gorgor for an avenging stroke. And if it had also been its purpose to defend the Mountain against all approach, it could scarcely have done more."
RotK, Land of Shadow