Was feanor evil?

[RTW Fan]

RTW fan:

You are ignoring that Fact that while he was indeed great in body, Feanor was still a Smith, not a trained warrior. The two elves who managed to kill Balrogs had spent most of thier time in Middle-Earth fighting and training, and the best they could manage in ONE-ON-ONE Fights was a mutual kill. No matter how great Feanor was, he was still one elf going against at least seven Maiar. The fact that he survived long enough for his sons to come rescue him in the first place is impressive enough. But if you have seven people trying to kill you all at the same time, you are going to be too busy defending yourself to even think of trying to kill them.

not true, Feanor had battle experience... And was a general of some ability.

Although one of those elves, Glorfindel, may or may not have been sent back to Middle-Earth later on.

Keep in mind that with regards to status, Fingolfin was equal to Feanor in every way. Feanors being born first did not make him better, since Finwe was not going to die and have someone succed him to the throne. Feanor was speaking treason against Finwe, questioning his fathers judgements.

Feanor had special rights with his father on account of his father choosing to re-marry(something apparently not done by elves and which doomed his mother to perpetual lifelessness.)

Yes, this should probably be closed now, its now like arguing with a brick wall.

Or a fanfic writer who thinks his own work and knowledge of the world is better than that of the authors.

I do not think that my knowledge is better than Tolkiens, however, seeing that he is not here to clarify, I will back my interpretation against others. As for being done, I doubt it, the argument is still clearly in the movement.

[TWWolfe]

But you're not interpreting, you're saying things based on something that was never written in the first place. Unless Tolkein outright states that Feanor killed a Balrog or two, it didn't happen. Once you start saying things like that, its left interpretation and gone into personal fan-fiction.

And he wasn't a general of some ability, he and his people slaughtered an army of orcs who couldn't even manage to do much damage to the lightly armed Sindar realms, let along the Noldor host, heavily armed and battle-ready, the light from whose swords ALONE caused them intense pain. That battle and the fight against the Teleri is pretty much ALL of his battle experience in a nutshell. I wouldn't want some one with that little experience leading anyone.

And there's a difference between a Leader and a general. Feanor was a LEADER, not a general.



And we seem to have reached the consensus that while Feanor himself was not evil, he committed evil actions. Also, he was not a very good leader. The topic has therefore served its purpose

[RTW Fan]

But you're not interpreting, you're saying things based on something that was never written in the first place. Unless Tolkein outright states that Feanor killed a Balrog or two, it didn't happen. Once you start saying things like that, its left interpretation and gone into personal fan-fiction.

And he wasn't a general of some ability, he and his people slaughtered an army of orcs who couldn't even manage to do much damage to the lightly armed Sindar realms, let along the Noldor host, heavily armed and battle-ready, the light from whose swords ALONE caused them intense pain. That battle and the fight against the Teleri is pretty much ALL of his battle experience in a nutshell. I wouldn't want some one with that little experience leading anyone.

And there's a difference between a Leader and a general. Feanor was a LEADER, not a general.



And we seem to have reached the consensus that while Feanor himself was not evil, he committed evil actions. Also, he was not a very good leader. The topic has therefore served its purpose

Not at all, he nailed and completely destroyed Morgoth's army. The Sindar and Nandor united were barely able to deal with just a part of the army... and they numbered considerably more than the all the Noldor... and he destroyed them completely, so much so that Morgoth himself was vulnerable.

And they were not battle ready, they were in the process of making camp.

[Mhaedros]

These where still badly armed, dably trained and badly diciplinated orcs. Not a very good opponent. Also they just came from Valinor and had seen the light of the trees, which gave them power beyond orcs.

[TWWolfe]

Not at all, he nailed and completely destroyed Morgoth's army. The Sindar and Nandor united were barely able to deal with just a part of the army... and they numbered considerably more than the all the Noldor... and he destroyed them completely, so much so that Morgoth himself was vulnerable.

And they were not battle ready, they were in the process of making camp.

Not true, Morgoth sent out three armies of orcs. The first was met by Thingols Grey-elves and Denethors Green elves at the River Gelion. those that survived the decimation there fled to the blue mountains and were slain by the dwarves. The second besieged the Falas, but were unable to do anything to the cities, so they joined with the third army and Marched on the Noldor, but they weren't nearly ready for just how powerful the Noldor were. the light in the Noldors eyes alone hurt them, and so this force of orcs was also destroyed. feanor was slain soon after, and the Noldor were in Disarray. Soon after, the Sun rose for the first time, and the horns of Fingolfins vast host sounded as it rose. So the forces of Melkor were checked for a time. Eventually, he sent out a much more numerous host, greater than the last three combined, to give battle to the noldor. Called the Glorious Battle, the orc legions were slaughtered again, and THIS is when the Seige of Angband began. Seige, not attack. Even when they were greater in number and the orcs slaughtered, they still could not have forced thier way into Angband. Morgoth did not send everything he had into those battles, he always kept something in reserve. he still had his Balrogs, he still had numerous orcs, He had trolls, wolves and werewolves, and other creatures he bred in the dark.

The orc armies were not Melkors end-all attempt to conquer, the first three were him testing the waters to see what sort of opposition he would face, and the fourth was more to test the power of the Noldor. He bred trolls at the same time as the Orcs, and he had his Balrogs and other creatures as well, so if he was seriously trying to conquer, he would have sent those out alongside the orc hosts. Instead, his hosts were all Orcs. If these orcs had conquered, well, that was very nice, but he did not expect them to have huge successes.

What i get is that you are Seriously overestimating the noldor and Underestimating Morgoth. If Fingolfin, who was a far better warrior than Feanor, was unable to kill Morgoth after he had spent so much of his energy into his minions, what makes you think the Noldor could have taken him when he still had much of that power within him. At the time Fingolfin faced him, he had lost so much of his power that he was forced to keep a physical form. he would have been much less limited in the time of the first battles.

[KnightsTemplar]

In Tolkien's world, the King's House seems to have mighty powers- and simiths were even stronger fighters.
But this 'fighter' doesn't equals to anything like 'warrior': their strength are great, and they can resist 'damage' quite well.
Like the later Lord of the 'House of Hammer of Wrath' (lol so many ofs) of Gondolin, he was accounted for many kills.

Bur Balrogs are surely bane of greats- even later Fingon was slain by those.
Multiple Balrogs are sure to slay anything, no even the Kings and Lords can escape this fate.

[Elfhelm]

I despise but in the end kind of sympathise with Feanorbecause I too am MAD!
He desplayed all too very human traits,especially for a celebrity vanity,self obsession and personal gain beyond any common good or benefit to his kind and with little or no respect for the effect his actions would have on his kin or his folk.
He was not a good warrior or tactician that is for sure but Tolkien says he was filled with the greater part of the fire of his mothers spirit which drained her of life and gave him a special strength which in itself means he had megga hitpoints LOL! .
Iff he had slain balrogs Tolkien would have stated so, he fought them long..long did he! C: But to say he must have slain at least 2 is just typical of an RTW warped interpretation of Feanor and Tolkiens truth and thus is utter speculation which I have no time for.
In a rational debate its obvious Feanor is not only a bad leader but is also a very poor general he never faced an equal host or cared for the wellbeing of his subjects or comrads in arms,he was invariably wracked by bad judgement and wrath with not only Morgoth and his obsession with his quest for revenge but a mad out of control & egotistical search for his own self worth.Tolkien knew exactly how he wanted Feanor to come across and he is just that...a brilliant soul,a genious craftsman and a gem amongst the eldar but flawed by his own greatness and deeply tragic in his obsession with revenge.His evils and there outcome far outway his gifts of creation making him an EPIC FAIL!
Iff you can't debate rationally with a RTW its best to drop into his domain,leave a high tech smart bomb and leave before the thread gets blown!
I have left this thread behind I advise all sensible folk to walk away swiftly!

[Ngugi]

@ Elfhelm
Celebrity Fëanor ^^ Well indeed;

"He was not gentle. He was proud and hot-tempered, and opposition to his will he met ... with fierce resentment. He was restless in mind and body, though... he could become wholly absorbed in works of the finest skill of hands; but he left many things unfinished." His pride more and more clouded his reason, and of all the children of Finwë he became the most arrogant.
-HoME 12

[dellivingston]

Tolkien's Feanor story is the crux of the whole Silmarillion book. In real life I am not convinced that there is such a thing as good and evil. There is peoples' perception, reasoning and actions. However, these are ultimately flawed or less than perfect because people are not God, who by definition is unflawed and has perfect reasoning, perception and judgement. However, I am not religious. I am agnostic and therefore I would require proof of a divine being before I necessarily believed in such a being.
The burning of the ships by Feanor is a parody of the conquistador and explorer Cortez who burned his ships upon reaching the new world in order to motivate his european followers. In Feanor's case there is also the anger, bitterness, spite and revenge aimed against Finglofina and his people because Fingolfin's mother was Indis of the Vanyar. Feanor did not like and was jealous of Finwe's love of Fingolfin and Finarfin and their love for Finwe. Feanor wanted Finwe's paternal love all for himself and resented ther other two half brothers.

[RTW Fan]

Not true, Morgoth sent out three armies of orcs. The first was met by Thingols Grey-elves and Denethors Green elves at the River Gelion. those that survived the decimation there fled to the blue mountains and were slain by the dwarves. The second besieged the Falas, but were unable to do anything to the cities, so they joined with the third army and Marched on the Noldor, but they weren't nearly ready for just how powerful the Noldor were. the light in the Noldors eyes alone hurt them, and so this force of orcs was also destroyed. feanor was slain soon after, and the Noldor were in Disarray. Soon after, the Sun rose for the first time, and the horns of Fingolfins vast host sounded as it rose. So the forces of Melkor were checked for a time. Eventually, he sent out a much more numerous host, greater than the last three combined, to give battle to the noldor. Called the Glorious Battle, the orc legions were slaughtered again, and THIS is when the Seige of Angband began. Seige, not attack. Even when they were greater in number and the orcs slaughtered, they still could not have forced thier way into Angband. Morgoth did not send everything he had into those battles, he always kept something in reserve. he still had his Balrogs, he still had numerous orcs, He had trolls, wolves and werewolves, and other creatures he bred in the dark.

The orc armies were not Melkors end-all attempt to conquer, the first three were him testing the waters to see what sort of opposition he would face, and the fourth was more to test the power of the Noldor. He bred trolls at the same time as the Orcs, and he had his Balrogs and other creatures as well, so if he was seriously trying to conquer, he would have sent those out alongside the orc hosts. Instead, his hosts were all Orcs. If these orcs had conquered, well, that was very nice, but he did not expect them to have huge successes.

What i get is that you are Seriously overestimating the noldor and Underestimating Morgoth. If Fingolfin, who was a far better warrior than Feanor, was unable to kill Morgoth after he had spent so much of his energy into his minions, what makes you think the Noldor could have taken him when he still had much of that power within him. At the time Fingolfin faced him, he had lost so much of his power that he was forced to keep a physical form. he would have been much less limited in the time of the first battles.

The first 3 armies were not testing the water, they were calculated by Morgoth to conquer Beleriand, which they were unable to achieve almost entirely because of Feanor's leadership.

Fingolfin did not think laterally, Feanor got the people he wanted to Beleriand with minimal losses, Fingolfin lost a large part of his host because he was stupid enough to cross the grinding ice.

[TWWolfe]

Right, and how else was he supposed to cross? I seem to recall someone burning the only other way. but my memory may be a bit hazy there.

And the orc armies didn't conquer anything because it becomes obvious they weren't equipped for conquest. One was destroyed, one was unable to do anything more than besiege that Falas, and the other seemed to just pick the Noldor to attack because they were there. if they had been calculated to conquer, they would have had specific objectives and stuck to them, rather than being able to just pack up what they were doing and go attack what they perceived as a softer target. Their goal was looting and destruction, not conquest.

And again, i also point out that if morgoth had wanted to be sure of conquest, he would have sent trolls and balrogs along with them. that he didn't indicates that he wasn't sure what sort of opposition he would face, and did not want to risk such assets so early after his return. Keep in mind, he had only returned after being a captive in Valinor for a very long time. Likely he had no knowledge whatsoever of the situation in ME, and wanted to be sure, so he scouted in force. Whatever else he might be, Morgoth was certainly no fool.

Feanors leadership didn't save anyone, his leadership consisted of him and his people crushing a large group of orcs, and then getting killed. Given time, the Sindar, Nandor and dwarves could easily have handled the other orc armies like they did with the ones at the River Gelion.

[KnightsTemplar]

The first 3 armies were not testing the water, they were calculated by Morgoth to conquer Beleriand, which they were unable to achieve almost entirely because of Feanor's leadership.

Fingolfin did not think laterally, Feanor got the people he wanted to Beleriand with minimal losses, Fingolfin lost a large part of his host because he was stupid enough to cross the grinding ice.

You are twisting everything.
Perhaps too much.
Read the books again.

-The battle was won with the support of Fingolfin's host. Not only Feanor's.
It's even implied without the sun and Fingolfin's host, Feanor's would have suffered greatly.

[TWWolfe]

And again, what was Fingolfin supposed to do with the ships burned? Go back to Valinor, ask for forgiveness and become king of the Noldor who remained? Or be loyal to his brother and try to get to him and his people and help them, no matter the cost?

He crossed the Ice because Feanor left him with no other choice.

[KnightsTemplar]

And again, what was Fingolfin supposed to do with the ships burned? Go back to Valinor, ask for forgiveness and become king of the Noldor who remained? Or be loyal to his brother and try to get to him and his people and help them, no matter the cost?

He crossed the Ice because Feanor left him with no other choice.

Exactly.
Or not? This is the exact opposite of what you suggest, Fan.
Then this is the true usurp. Leaving your elder brother to a unknown place, filled with great evil?
With a small host against the great evil and Morgoth in his prime is surely leaving Feanor to death.
This is fully a premeditated murder then.

Everything's wrong with the others. OK?

[Ngugi]

@ KnightsT'
Now lets be carefull to put RTW's point blanc illogical code of loyalty as out starting point to judge what went on.
If an usurper is the person standing up against a in hierarchy higher positioned persons ill decisions - then that "usurper" is rather a paragorn and a hero. An usurper is one who take the power in an unlawfull way - though first we have to know that laws to take into account.
Finarfin, whom by RTW logic should be be called an usurper, is not such one.

But in that hour Finarfin forsook the march, and turned back, being filled with grief, and with bitterness against the House of Fëanor, because of his kinship with Olwë of Alqualondë; and many of his people went with him, retracing their steps in sorrow ... There they received the pardon of the Valar, and Finarfin was set to rule the remnant of the Noldor in the Blessed Realm.
- Of the Flight of Noldor

A persons only and highest loyality is not blind loyalty and, if the world maintain any etichs, should not be it so. The laws from which one draws legitimacy are after all multiple.
Otherwise any resistens against a, say mad bloody tyrant, should be deemed wrong just because the hierearchy wont allow it.

Finarfin leaves, for that you may call him a traitor but not an usurper. And people follow him based upon the same reasons as Finarfins. You may call them traitors but that do not make Finarfin a usurper. And we are never told Finarfin wants power (another key qualification to be an usurper) but is "set to rule". Either the people or the Valar or both has spoken, two autohrities higher than hierechy-cunducts, and thats not to usurp. Noldors custom is is proven to have multiple kings when people and royal lords are spread apart - in Beleriand under Fingolfin at least Finrod and Turgon were named kings under the Highking.
So, unless if Fëanor came back demanding the rule and Finarfin resisted, there's no stealing of power as no kings power is exercised and thus no authority stolen.

But in Fingolfins case, if he would turned back to Valinor it would been in direct line with what his king wanted - no usurptation but loyal, bit of a Cath-22 if he's to be accused to be an usurper if going back
As the case is academical we can assume Fingolfin if forgiven also would be "set to rule", thus not usurper till Fëanor decleared right to rule the ones left in Aman directly.

[KnightsTemplar]

The best and fun way to reply a troll: be a troll.

[Ngugi]

A tin read line I guess, while it's my oppinion. But as I once read in Fallout 2;
Oppinions are like ass-holes, everbody got them and everybody stinks

[Aragon150]

he swore an oath about simalirs so he acted apound it so yea he was not evil but he did act evil

[TWWolfe]

A tin read line I guess, while it's my oppinion. But as I once read in Fallout 2;
Oppinions are like ass-holes, everbody got them and everybody stinks

Some just stink more than others

[YuilenZ01]

Feanor was not ulimately evil, proud and overbearing but I like to think if he knew the out come of his actionsa he would have acted differently. The burning of the ships is his one act that I have the most trouble with. That was evil!!!! without any real justification true or imagined.

Tolkien took that from Hernan Cortes, who also burned his ships upon landing in Mexico, so as to encourage his men to fight harder and achieve what they set out to accomplish. That entire scene with Feanor was based right out of real history. Except Cortes wasn't a dick, and he succeeded in obtaining all that he desired.