Taxes is global

[Daily]

Well I am not happy about this at all. Though I can see that the regions you have are smaller than previous TW games which stretched over countries. Japan ain't exactly huge.

Total War games has a charm which have captivated me since Rome and yes this is mostly because of the battles but also the abillity to govern your kingdom and grow it into a power. If they trade the taxes with a new way of making money for example choosing what regions should concentrate on horse breeding it would be tolerable. Just give us some governing capabilities!

 

[Fev]

That is sad to here. I was really hoping we'd go back to taxing by region, or at least have the option for it so we could still appease those people (a.k.a teenie-bopers who are completely inept) who can't manage region-by-region taxes.

Actually setting the taxes for each region individually is way easier.

 

[Alpha TWC]

Global taxes are going well ... as I said and I repeat, did you miss nothing at first, regional taxes are a bit illogical (the more you rebel, the more you pay less) and the loyalty of the provinces are rewarded with ... more taxes than everyone else! however, apart from anything else, with regional taxes were simply raise or lower taxes depending of public order ... in S2TW is more logical that the feud with the same Daymo that everyone pays the same amount, with the option to exempt taxes. the system of global taxes also adds a bit of challenge because you need to better manage all the provinces together, also there is no boredom and no Repeatable action at some point ... as in the other TW game.

 

[Uandwhosearmy]

Global taxes increases difficulty and realism while decreasing micro-management. How is this a bad thing?

 

[uanime5]

No, being able to tax by region during this age is stupid and lets look at why the region thing is stupid by reason:
"Oh heck, King William's taxes are killing us, why does he tax us like this? Must be a punishment from god!"
"Funny you should talk about that, I was talking to the traveling merchant and it seem like those folks in Yorkshire only pay a quarter of what we do!"
"But why? We have been nothing but loyal and have accepted our new Norman overlords unlike those up by York, those rebel bastards."
"But thats why you see because we are loyal the king think we are not a threat he think he can tax us as much as he wants but because of the recent troubles up by Yorkshire he has to lower taxes so they dont rebel no more."
"Wait a second... We all hate paying taxes, so what if we rebelled?"
"But why? The King has been nothing but good to us..."
"Why should we pay higher taxes for being good? We should rebel and not be forced to pay such high taxes like those Yorkshiremen, why be loyal when the traitors are rewarded with less taxes?"
"..."
*Essex rebels*

Glad someone pointed this out. Unless lowering taxes in one region makes all the neighbouring regions more likely to rebel because they're paying higher taxes, allowing people to control the taxes in each region is bad idea.

Also in Japan during this period did the various clans have global taxes or were taxes different in different regions?

 

[The Vengur]

Glad someone pointed this out. Unless lowering taxes in one region makes all the neighbouring regions more likely to rebel because they're paying higher taxes, allowing people to control the taxes in each region is bad idea.

Also in Japan during this period did the various clans have global taxes or were taxes different in different regions?

as most taxes were paid in food the amount depended on the regions fertility

 

[empr guy]

No, being able to tax by region during this age is stupid and lets look at why the region thing is stupid by reason:
"Oh heck, King William's taxes are killing us, why does he tax us like this? Must be a punishment from god!"
"Funny you should talk about that, I was talking to the traveling merchant and it seem like those folks in Yorkshire only pay a quarter of what we do!"
"But why? We have been nothing but loyal and have accepted our new Norman overlords unlike those up by York, those rebel bastards."
"But thats why you see because we are loyal the king think we are not a threat he think he can tax us as much as he wants but because of the recent troubles up by Yorkshire he has to lower taxes so they dont rebel no more."
"Wait a second... We all hate paying taxes, so what if we rebelled?"
"But why? The King has been nothing but good to us..."
"Why should we pay higher taxes for being good? We should rebel and not be forced to pay such high taxes like those Yorkshiremen, why be loyal when the traitors are rewarded with less taxes?"
"..."
*Essex rebels*

oh come on, its not like taxing regions more didnt come without happinies and population growth hits. what you are arguing for is just an exagerated system of what they already had. Of course having taxes 400% higher in one specific region should cause a rebelion, yet we have never been able to do that, since taxes were "low, normal, high, very high" and the difference between low and high was way less then 100%

Oh and let us take a quick reminder how how Feudralism works:

Back then the King/Lord would assign someone to look after some land in return for a tithe, how much that tithe was depend on the person in charge of that bit of land, if the person was talented and loyal it would be alot but if the person was dishonest it would be little. Its pretty obvious that S2 is not a Feudralism sim but I want titles and governors to matter reducing the Micromanagement the player must do (Note: This is all what the old tax system was little more than changing sliders) but rather using the characters under his command.

iirc they had various titles you could grant generals in Medieval I, which would give them various bonuses, its a shame they took that out. Of course, they were mostly loyal bonuses, so they would go to unloyal generals, which dosent make much sense, (also they took out the loyalty system, which would work well with fuedalism ) but the only really historical part of the game is the start, before the player or AI have a chance to do anything.

Actually setting the taxes for each region individually is way easier

because never having to change or worry about taxes other then just exempting regions is really hard?

Global taxes are going well ... as I said and I repeat, did you miss nothing at first, regional taxes are a bit illogical (the more you rebel, the more you pay less) and the loyalty of the provinces are rewarded with ... more taxes than everyone else!

um, since there is no "loyalty" chart/graph/bar/indicater etc you seem to have completly misrepresented the entire taxing system of TW and argued against that instead of what it is. regions have levels of happiness, the happier the people (due to things like public works, a good garrison, etc) the higher tax burden they will support without getting angrey. since the levels of taxes are so few (like 4 options) no one ends up paying huge sums of money while their neighbors pay nothing.

however, apart from anything else, with regional taxes were simply raise or lower taxes depending of public order ... in S2TW is more logical that the feud with the same Daymo that everyone pays the same amount, with the option to exempt taxes. the system of global taxes also adds a bit of challenge because you need to better manage all the provinces together, also there is no boredom and no Repeatable action at some point ... as in the other TW game.

no, you really dont. in the latest games you could just keep taxes at the defult, and exempt angrey regions. if a nation is border line unhappy you can just put a garrison in the city. and if you didnt like the need to change taxes, you could always have automanaged them.

Glad someone pointed this out. Unless lowering taxes in one region makes all the neighbouring regions more likely to rebel because they're paying higher taxes, allowing people to control the taxes in each region is bad idea.

this would be a HUGE improvment, as i said before your not going to have someone paying 400% the taxes as their neighbors, but slight unhappiness bonuses for more then 10% tax difference would be great.

as most taxes were paid in food the amount depended on the regions fertility

for all this talk of "histroically accuracy", no one has mentioned being paid in koku and not being able to change the amount you gain without farming improvments.

 

[Maяcel]

not sure about this, but i guess it wont affect me too much, i suck at economics anyway

 

[bangell99]

me liek smash stuff

Seriously, this series is getting ridiculously simple.

 

[Alpha TWC]

...

we could discuss for a long time ... but in the end just say, global taxes are so dramatic? absolutely not, improve the comprehensive management of all the provinces, eliminate unnecessary micro-manage ... you do not lose anything. a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g! The parameters of happiness are still there, etc.

when you have so many provinces, the usual trick "low happiness - low taxes" is pretty repetitive ... and do it in every province .... global taxes instead of simply doing the same thing many times, I'll do it with a single step ... tragedy

and if it is a rebellious province, "no tax " ... although it changed the outlook ... is like the others TW game de facto.

at one point many people put automanage taxes in the other games before ETW....

if you think about it, there is no radical change, to maintain order and so do the same things. very little change...

no, you really dont. in the latest games you could just keep taxes at the defult, and exempt angrey regions.

in the other TW games regions-happier put high-taxes (equivalent to "default" in the global tax system), the less happy very low tax(equivalent to "no tax" under the new system). BUT ... even the "low taxes"have a small penalty serves more garrison, the garrison has a maintenance cost .. "no tax" has no penalty, and the garrison need a little less than before

All this to say that, mathematically, it changes very little ... de facto. And global taxes have to do with global choices that increase the difficulty... this is good

if a nation is border line unhappy you can just put a garrison in the city.

What has changed? all TW has been used in any way the garrison for the order.

and if you didnt like the need to change taxes, you could always have automanaged them.

... and in fact, if we must put automanagement, what sense is? or, in the other total war the tax system in use only at the beginning and then abandons him in automanaged, with global taxes we use it throughout the game ... from the beginning to the end.

if we cry for the loss of regional taxes ... please! come on!

 

[empr guy]

we could discuss for a long time ... but in the end just say, global taxes are so dramatic? absolutely not, improve the comprehensive management of all the provinces, eliminate unnecessary micro-manage ... you do not lose anything. a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g! The parameters of happiness are still there, etc.

you dont seem to understand the problem, the game is getting way too simple.

when you have so many provinces, the usual trick "low happiness - low taxes" is pretty repetitive ... and do it in every province .... global taxes instead of simply doing the same thing many times, I'll do it with a single step ... tragedy

so is fighting battles, lets just auto resolve them all.

and if it is a rebellious province, "no tax " ... although it changed the outlook ... is like the others TW game de facto.

you couldnt set no taxes on a province before empire. so its clearly the same.

at one point many people put automanage taxes in the other games before ETW....

so? now i cant manage my provinces because some aren't able?

if you think about it, there is no radical change, to maintain order and so do the same things. very little change...

yes, i suppose if you just already auto managed the entire game anyway nothing changed.

in the other TW games regions-happier put high-taxes (equivalent to "default" in the global tax system),

no its not, defult is equivelent to normal in global taxes. how can defult equal high if there is an option for high taxes?

the less happy very low tax(equivalent to "no tax" under the new system). BUT ... even the "low taxes"have a small penalty serves more garrison, the garrison has a maintenance cost .. "no tax" has no penalty, and the garrison need a little less than before

so very little taxes is comparable to no taxes? i cant believe no one saw that before.

All this to say that, mathematically, it changes very little ... de facto. And global taxes have to do with global choices that increase the difficulty... this is good

lol not having to manage your provinces makes it more challenging.

What has changed? all TW has been used in any way the garrison for the order.

the taxing system, which is what i was talking about

... and in fact, if we must put automanagement, what sense is? or, in the other total war the tax system in use only at the beginning and then abandons him in automanaged, with global taxes we use it throughout the game ... from the beginning to the end.

if we cry for the loss of regional taxes ... please! come on!

once again, some people like automanage = everyone must use auto manage?
--------------

anyway, i was not entirely sure what you were trying to say for a couple parts, if you put a quote of what your responding to directly above the response (like what i did) then it would be a bit easier.

 

[Delysid]

Might aswell just remove the campaign from the game while they are at it.

 

[Furious Mental]

I like how all the PR says 'Oh yeah in Empire it was too big, now we are going back to Japan, one country, same culture etc' oh but don't assume that because the game map is getting smaller and there is less content in terms of units etc that we are going to add any depth.

 

[DarkArk]

Wow, when you hear the way some people moan. I hated province management in Rome and Med2. The system was a complete nightmare and was much more complex than it needed to be. That was one of the developments that Empire did very well, in that managing an empire was not a tedious affair.

the game is getting way too simple.

Perhaps, but in a good way. Spending 20 minutes setting tax levels and managing population contentment is not what I play Total War games for. Shogun 2 definitely seems to be about making hard and fast choices, as evidenced by the tech tree and resources in provinces. Having a global tax level fits into this. This system also helps prevent a player from steamrolling too much, at least at first, because newly conquered territory will yield no taxes.

 

[RazorbackII]

That's all that needs to be posted.

I wanted a more complex economy system, as this is what made the predecessors' to Empire so great imo, and even they weren't that complicated. This sounds like Napoleon's system. Military barracks, artillery or theater/magistrate.

I sincerely hope this article is somewhat misinformed.

 

[Daily]

Actually after reading some of the other posts I am now for the global taxes. The argument that the loyal and trustworthy citizens get taxed like crazy while the rebellious ones get off with almost no taxes is really unreasonable. But the question is, how will CA balance that the taxes weren't paid with currency but rather with food (rice)?

 

[Alpha TWC]

That's all that needs to be posted.

I wanted a more complex economy system, as this is what made the predecessors' to Empire so great imo, and even they weren't that complicated. This sounds like Napoleon's system. Military barracks, artillery or theater/magistrate.

I sincerely hope this article is somewhat misinformed.

but do you really think that the economy was better only for regional taxes? on ETW the revenue not only depend on the taxes, but much more from the commerce ... this is much better and is more complex ...

You think that to make the game needlessly complex with micro-magagement is better .... complex is not synonymous with difficult .... nor realism ...

I will try the complexity and depth in other parameters ...

What do global taxes? is simply a better system to manage everything. one step instead of dozens all the same. dramatic

I would like to see in "multiplayer campaign" lose 20 minutes just to adjust the taxes ...

so very little taxes is comparable to no taxes? i cant believe no one saw that before.

everything you read? DE FACTO to equal low happiness, low tax (small revenue from taxes, a small penalty, little more garrison need, little more maintenance costs) no tax (no revenue, no penalty, need little less garrison, little less maintenance costs) are not such a big difference ....

you dont seem to understand the problem, the game is getting way too simple.

you dont seem to understand the proplem of regional taxes, at some point very boring, very repetitive, the usual thing repeated 1000 times.
and regional taxes is too easy and simple to manage public order

about the system of happiness, too underestimate the weight of taxes up to a certain point. the poor population has always existed in all regions and has always been a numerical majority, provide entertainment or other things to increase the happiness etc can be up to a certain point. Charges weighed in a poor, and if he sees that the "rebels neighbors" get lower taxes ...

I could go on, but I can only repeat myself .

 

[Tepok]

Basically, what I consider wrong here is that I like to manage it all. Others like to manage the whole thing. Is it that hard to please both? Simply adding an option to regulate them all at a set rate, and let others do it individually.

Or, worst case, put some "districts" to regroup some 5 regions or something, like Empire's continents.

 

[RazorbackII]

@ Alpha TWC

My issue is not as such with the micromanagement system. By the sounds, they are including an RPG element to agents and generals and this is something I am very happy about. But this is the kind of depth I like, and they seem to be going the opposite way with the economy. I want to have to establish my Clan before I can go knocking on others doors.

I want to have numerous amounts of buildings with different effects that can work best with certain regions etc. Not just, this building here, this here.

 

[MaximiIian]

The only part I liked about regionalised taxes in previous games was that I could play as England and not tax the British Isles while taxing Europe heavily, sparking rebellions and thus relieving boredom.

But Shogun 2 probably won't have a money cheat, so I might actually use strategy when playing the campaign. A state-wide rather than regionalised tax system is far better for deeper, long-term strategy. Thus, it both simplifies and adds complexity at the same time.

 

[SonOfOdin]

The answer is simple really, Total War is becoming an extremely mainstream title to attract casual gamers, and not hardcore Total war fans.
Don't troll me, this is my opinion.

 

[Fireright]

Bring back the console and add money and other blessings!! Bye bye taxation malarkeys for those disinterested in the financial side of the campaigns.

Setting taxes can be a yawner, but why can't we set interest rates and borrow money and all that? Most countries usually have a national debt of some sort. Pondered why we can't run into the red and have a national debt. Realistic eh?

 

[goro]

economy was better in medieval 2.in empire and napoleon it was a nightmare for me.i still dont understand how it works.i dont much care

 

[RO Citizen]

Same thing as ETW&NTW? Love it then

 

[Fireright]

economy was better in medieval 2.in empire and napoleon it was a nightmare for me.i still dont understand how it works.i dont much care

I agree. Med2 economics are more intuitive whereas etw and ntw are a pain in the butt. Stuff spread out all over the place and clicking on buildings all the time to see 'whats what' is a chore I can do without. Add to that the kiddywink spinning icons all over the map..and dear god, what a load of ----------.

 

[Greve Af Göteborg]

I accept this taxation system as it is more challenging.
It's extremely easy to become bankrupt/get rebellions with the new tax system, and I think this is really the way to go to make the economy challenging.

I laugh at those saying that this is making things simpler, because it's actually the opposite.

 

[empr guy]

Wow, when you hear the way some people moan. I hated province management in Rome and Med2. The system was a complete nightmare and was much more complex than it needed to be. That was one of the developments that Empire did very well, in that managing an empire was not a tedious affair.

it was already rediculously simple, set taxes to low/m/h/very high, with no affects other then happines. in reality, it would affect trade, production, neighbor happiness (as what was said before, your not going to have taxes really high in one province and really low in other provinces with population shifts / huge unrest depending on the size of the difference)

Perhaps, but in a good way. Spending 20 minutes setting tax levels and managing population contentment is not what I play Total War games for. Shogun 2 definitely seems to be about making hard and fast choices, as evidenced by the tech tree and resources in provinces. Having a global tax level fits into this. This system also helps prevent a player from steamrolling too much, at least at first, because newly conquered territory will yield no taxes.

if your going to play a game for the battles why do you even play a campaign? and how can this be about making fast choices if research takes like 20 turns to get and its turn based?

Actually after reading some of the other posts I am now for the global taxes. The argument that the loyal and trustworthy citizens get taxed like crazy while the rebellious ones get off with almost no taxes is really unreasonable. But the question is, how will CA balance that the taxes weren't paid with currency but rather with food (rice)?

A) there is no measure of loyalty, they took it out because, like managing more then one tax panel, it was too complex for some.

B) they probably wont bother

Basically, what I consider wrong here is that I like to manage it all. Others like to manage the whole thing. Is it that hard to please both? Simply adding an option to regulate them all at a set rate, and let others do it individually.

Or, worst case, put some "districts" to regroup some 5 regions or something, like Empire's continents.

agreed.

I accept this taxation system as it is more challenging.
It's extremely easy to become bankrupt/get rebellions with the new tax system, and I think this is really the way to go to make the economy challenging.

I laugh at those saying that this is making things simpler, because it's actually the opposite.

i laugh at those who say making taxes completly uneccesary to change or even look at more challenging then needing to manage more then ten seperate provinces with their own semi unique needs.

but do you really think that the economy was better only for regional taxes? on ETW the revenue not only depend on the taxes, but much more from the commerce ... this is much better and is more complex ...

ETW depends heavily on trade routs (which only go through one or two ports no matter how many you have ) but you just had to ask everyone for them as the first thing you did. You didnt even need merchants or trade buildings, so saying its getting more complex is ignoring all the features that were in previous games.

You think that to make the game needlessly complex with micro-magagement is better .... complex is not synonymous with difficult .... nor realism ...

yea, my post said it was ALREADY easy, i dont think anyone is actually saying it was hard, some say tedious, but i disagree.

I will try the complexity and depth in other parameters ...

what?

What do global taxes? is simply a better system to manage everything. one step instead of dozens all the same. dramatic

no, its just dumbing it down even further.

I would like to see in "multiplayer campaign" lose 20 minutes just to adjust the taxes ...

no one takes that long to set taxes, and you dont even do it all once

everything you read? DE FACTO to equal low happiness, low tax (small revenue from taxes, a small penalty, little more garrison need, little more maintenance costs) no tax (no revenue, no penalty, need little less garrison, little less maintenance costs) are not such a big difference ....

i was being sarcastic

you dont seem to understand the proplem of regional taxes, at some point very boring, very repetitive, the usual thing repeated 1000 times.
and regional taxes is too easy and simple to manage public order

global taxes are even easier, especially since most income in the last game came from trade, so you didnt even need high taxes.

about the system of happiness, too underestimate the weight of taxes up to a certain point. the poor population has always existed in all regions and has always been a numerical majority, provide entertainment or other things to increase the happiness etc can be up to a certain point. Charges weighed in a poor, and if he sees that the "rebels neighbors" get lower taxes ...

I could go on, but I can only repeat myself .

im not sure what your saying, of course people (especially poor) will get angrey over taxes, but some regions just make more money then others. and taxes are based on how happy they were, i have already said i would like that extreme tax differences cause unhappiness. i suspec the total war series will never get that complex though.

 

[Francebunkerer]

Taxes in Empire also affected your economic growth in that region, at least upper class taxes did.

Overall, the system introduced in Empire offers more depth and less tedium, so yay. Empire's economic and diplomatic systems, though not necessarily the AI's diplomacy, were so much improved over the clumsy, laboured and hamhanded management in Rome and Medieval 2.
Yay Empire.

 

[Greve Af Göteborg]

i laugh at those who say making taxes completly uneccesary to change or even look at more challenging then needing to manage more then ten seperate provinces with their own semi unique needs.

You apparently haven't played Napoleon.
You truly have to manage all your regions perfectly, if you put taxes too high you will be hindering growth and wealth. Newly conquered regions or regions with bad happiness have to be exempted which means that they will cost you a lot due to no income.

This means that you can't tax the hell out of certain regions, you have to have a balanced taxation.
And that is a lot more difficult compared to just taxing the hell out of the cities that are happy and lowering it in the cities that are rebellious (Keeping the income)

The new tax system makes it more challenging and yes you do need to always keep an eye on the taxes and change them to keep the balance of growth and wealth in your clan.

You think this is simplified while it really isn't.

 

[empr guy]

You apparently haven't played Napoleon.

why would i bother, i already bought empire.

You truly have to manage all your regions perfectly, if you put taxes too high you will be hindering growth and wealth. Newly conquered regions or regions with bad happiness have to be exempted which means that they will cost you a lot due to no income.

besides from the no taxes option the only real change is the town wealth thing, which is a nice improvment.

[quoteThis means that you can't tax the hell out of certain regions, you have to have a balanced taxation.
And that is a lot more difficult compared to just taxing the hell out of the cities that are happy and lowering it in the cities that are rebellious (Keeping the income)[/quote]

or, you just keep it on defult taxes and exempt unhappy regions.

The new tax system makes it more challenging and yes you do need to always keep an eye on the taxes and change them to keep the balance of growth and wealth in your clan.

You think this is simplified while it really isn't.

but you already had to keep an eye on your provinces and taxes, now you can just do it all from one panel.