Short Campaign Bug

[Affonso]

Hi guys, I was wondering if you could help me out on something:

I haven't played RTW vanilla for ages now and I was starting to miss the game, so a few days ago I decided to start playing it again. I first installed the game on my laptop, and then I proceeded to downloading all the patches until I reached patch 1.5.

Once the game was ready to play, I decided to start a short campaign with Parthia as I never tried out a campaign with an Eastern faction before on RTW. I chose the hardest settings for everything, and my victory objectives were to control 15 provinces and destroy or outlast Armenia and Seleucia. The victory condition did not specify a time limit.

After a few days playing the game, I had managed to destroy Armenia and although I was being constantly attacked by a whole bunch of factions, I managed to hold on to my 7 provinces. Suddenly, after about 30-40 turns, I started getting messages saying that "defeat is imminent, Egypt is victorious", etc... I didn't understand what that meant, until suddenly Egypt destroyed the Seleucids, and then a message came up saying that I had failed to reach my objectives, but that I had the option to continue. I pressed continue, and I noticed that the victory conditions had changed. They now said that I had to hold 50 provinces, including Rome, hence the short campaign objectives were replaced by the long campaign objectives. I had no idea why that happened, and I realised it must be a bug, since the victory conditions specified that I have to destroy or outlast the Seleucids, not let them die. Nevertheless, I sensed that perhaps if I was the one to kill the Seleucids, like I did to the Armenians, perhaps nothing would happen, so I went back a few turns, and I prevented the Egyptians from killing the Seleucids.

I then focused on killing the Seleucids myself, and when I was finally able to destroy them, the same message came up again, saying that the Egyptians had won, and I had failed to reach my objectives. Also like before, the short campaign objectives were replaced by the long campaign objectives. WTH?!

Do you guys know what caused this bug that occurs when the factions you are supposed to kill our outlast in the victory conditions are destroyed and make you lose the game, hence completely reversing the whole thing? And if so, how I can fix this?

Thanks a lot

 

[A7X]

that's no bug, Egypt probably accomplished the victory conditions before you.

 

[Affonso]

that's no bug, Egypt probably accomplished the victory conditions before you.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that, but you don't seem to make any sense. The victory conditions specify that you must hold 15 provinces and destroy or outlast the Seleucids and Armenia. It says nothing about Egypt.

Nevertheless, even if the victory conditions specified that I must kill the Armenians and Seleucids before the Egyptians, I did meet those ends, and the same defeat message came up. I don't think the issue is whether this is a bug or not, it's quite obvious that it is.

 

[_Elysium_]

Egypt's requirements to win the short campaign are the same as Partia's: Hold 15 regions and destroy or outlast Selucia and Armenia. I'm assuming Egypt achieved their requirements before you, so "won". You destroyed Armenia, Egypt outlasted them. Egypt destroyed Selucia, you outlasted them. But Egypt held 15 or more regions, whereas you held 7. You could use the toggle_fow "cheat" to see exactly how many regions Egypt held when they claimed victory.

I don't have the experience to say whether this is actually the reason, but it makes sense to me.

 

[ninjabanana]

Egypt's requirements to win the short campaign are the same as Partia's: Hold 15 regions and destroy or outlast Selucia and Armenia. I'm assuming Egypt achieved their requirements before you, so "won". You destroyed Armenia, Egypt outlasted them. Egypt destroyed Selucia, you outlasted them. But Egypt held 15 or more regions, whereas you held 7. You could use the toggle_fow "cheat" to see exactly how many regions Egypt held when they claimed victory.

I don't have the experience to say whether this is actually the reason, but it makes sense to me.

This exactly.

And about the victory conditions "changing", that's normal. Every time you finish a short campaign (victory or defeat, doesn't matter) the game then immediately changes the victory conditions to the long campaign conditions. It's perfectly normal, no bug there

 

[Affonso]

Egypt's requirements to win the short campaign are the same as Partia's: Hold 15 regions and destroy or outlast Selucia and Armenia. I'm assuming Egypt achieved their requirements before you, so "won". You destroyed Armenia, Egypt outlasted them. Egypt destroyed Selucia, you outlasted them. But Egypt held 15 or more regions, whereas you held 7. You could use the toggle_fow "cheat" to see exactly how many regions Egypt held when they claimed victory.

I don't have the experience to say whether this is actually the reason, but it makes sense to me.

I'm sorry, but it still doesn't make sense to me.

For a start, I thought the victory conditions were only applicable to human players, not the AI. I have not read or been told otherwise. Now, what if you say is correct, which it probably is, it still doesn't justify the situation, since the victory conditions specify: "hold 15 provinces, and destroy or outlast armenia and the seleucids", not: "hold 15 provinces, and destroy or outlast armenia and the seleucids before Egypt does". It must specify in the victory conditions that I must not let Egypt achieve the same objectives, or else I fail, which it doesn't. It is bad programming, hence a bug as I see it.

 

[Chris Death]

Omg so to sum it up;

- computers are not allowed to win against human players

- if a computer wins against a player it must be due to a bug

- if a computer is allowed to beat a human player with equal conditions it was bad programmed

- anything that you haven't heard or been told does not make sense to you

Seems you don't like surprises - looking forward to your reaction once you find out
that conquering a settlement which got the plague, will infect your units too.

~S~ CD

 

[ninjabanana]

I'm sorry, but it still doesn't make sense to me.

For a start, I thought the victory conditions were only applicable to human players, not the AI. I have not read or been told otherwise. Now, what if you say is correct, which it probably is, it still doesn't justify the situation, since the victory conditions specify: "hold 15 provinces, and destroy or outlast armenia and the seleucids", not: "hold 15 provinces, and destroy or outlast armenia and the seleucids before Egypt does". It must specify in the victory conditions that I must not let Egypt achieve the same objectives, or else I fail, which it doesn't. It is bad programming, hence a bug as I see it.

Omg...

It should be quite obvious that the AI factions don't achieve their victory conditions before you. It's the same thing in every game in human history. If someone else achieves his/her victory conditions before you, you lose. End. Of. Freaking. Story.

 

[Affonso]

Omg so to sum it up;

- computers are not allowed to win against human players

- if a computer wins against a player it must be due to a bug

- if a computer is allowed to beat a human player with equal conditions it was bad programmed

- anything that you haven't heard or been told does not make sense to you

Seems you don't like surprises - looking forward to your reaction once you find out
that conquering a settlement which got the plague, will infect your units too.

~S~ CD

That's not the point, and don't put words in my mouth if you don't understand, or don't like what I said. If I start a campaign and lose it because I was defeated in battle against the AI, or if my provinces were overrun by superior force, that would seem like a pretty normal way to lose. Now, if I start a campaign after reading that the victory conditions state that I must hold 15 provinces and either destroy or outlast Armenia and the Seleucids, and fail to mention that the same applies to Egypt, the latter is obviously misleading, since you do not know that you must achieve your victory conditions before another specific faction. Doesn't require a genius to understand that.

Omg...

It should be quite obvious that the AI factions don't achieve their victory conditions before you. It's the same thing in every game in human history. If someone else achieves his/her victory conditions before you, you lose. End. Of. Freaking. Story.

Do the victory conditions for a short campaign with Parthia make it clear that you must achieve your objectives before Egypt does? It seems obvious that failing to achieve your objectives against competitors in other games usually occur when they halt your victory objectives, and not due to a un-told requirement. I don't recall playing a game where I lost after doing what I was told. It seems obvious that if I do not know that I must achieve my objectives before Egypt, I will not take measures to prevent them from capturing 15 settlements, I will merely be concerned with taking 15 settlements from whoever I can, and with destroying the Seleucids and Armenians, hence doing what I was told.

You guys make no sense at all, and I suspect that you are driven more by a desire to contest what I am saying rather than failing to understand an obvious point.

 

[tudor93]

Yeah, I understand what Affonso is trying to say, I was surprised (and a little upset) like you are now when this first happened to me; the victory conditions are: "Hold 15 provinces and destroy X" , they don't say "Hold 15 provinces and destroy X before Y holds 15 provinces and destroys Z" ; I don't really care if Y holds 35 regions and destroys 15 nations, all I have to do is to get and hold 15 settlements and destroy X ; but whatever .... I got used to it So should you Affonso, you shouldn't make such a big deal out of it
edit: oh, and no, for me it isn't obvious that I must complete these tasks before other nations do, why would it be ?

 

[Affonso]

Yeah, I understand what Affonso is trying to say, I was surprised (and a little upset) like you are now when this first happened to me; the victory conditions are: "Hold 15 provinces and destroy X" , they don't say "Hold 15 provinces and destroy X before Y holds 15 provinces and destroys Z" ; I don't really care if Y holds 35 regions and destroys 15 nations, all I have to do is to get and hold 15 settlements and destroy X ; but whatever .... I got used to it So should you Affonso, you shouldn't make such a big deal out of it
edit: oh, and no, for me it isn't obvious that I must complete these tasks before other nations do, why would it be ?

Exactly, thank you.

 

[_Elysium_]

I wasn't aware of this before you brought it up. I thought the same, that we had full control of the victory and weren't in a race. I'd have been annoyed aswell, if I'd discovered it this way.

 

[|Sith|Galvanized Iron]

That's not the point, and don't put words in my mouth if you don't understand, or don't like what I said. If I start a campaign and lose it because I was defeated in battle against the AI, or if my provinces were overrun by superior force, that would seem like a pretty normal way to lose. Now, if I start a campaign after reading that the victory conditions state that I must hold 15 provinces and either destroy or outlast Armenia and the Seleucids, and fail to mention that the same applies to Egypt, the latter is obviously misleading, since you do not know that you must achieve your victory conditions before another specific faction. Doesn't require a genius to understand that.



Do the victory conditions for a short campaign with Parthia make it clear that you must achieve your objectives before Egypt does? It seems obvious that failing to achieve your objectives against competitors in other games usually occur when they halt your victory objectives, and not due to a un-told requirement. I don't recall playing a game where I lost after doing what I was told. It seems obvious that if I do not know that I must achieve my objectives before Egypt, I will not take measures to prevent them from capturing 15 settlements, I will merely be concerned with taking 15 settlements from whoever I can, and with destroying the Seleucids and Armenians, hence doing what I was told.

You guys make no sense at all, and I suspect that you are driven more by a desire to contest what I am saying rather than failing to understand an obvious point.

You could have had a point if it weren't for:

1) The game explicitly warned you a few turns before Egypt won.
2) Lack of information is not a bug.

 

[Affonso]

You could have had a point if it weren't for:

1) The game explicitly warned you a few turns before Egypt won.
2) Lack of information is not a bug.

1.) Warned me of what? The game never warned me that I had to reach my victory conditions before Egypt. You think a few random notices saying; "defeat is imminent, Egypt will be victorious" warn you in the slightest that you must not let Egypt control 15 provinces and defeat or outlast Armenia and the Seleucids? I guess you must be a mind reader if you can gather that from the notice.

2.) If it was the programmer's intention to allow the victory conditions specified in the descriptions of the various factions to suit the AI as well during a campaign, that's fine by me, but so long as they actually mention it in the campaign description that in addition I must not allow Egypt to take control of 15 provinces and destroy or outlast Armenia and Seleucia.

However, if it wasn't their intention to do so, which is what I think happened, then it's most probably a bug, as Parthia and Egypt have the same victory conditions if you read the descriptions, and I have a hunch that the game activated the victory conditions for both factions, as it wasn't able to discern between the human and the AI. Think about it, why did I not get the same problem with other factions, but I got it with Egypt? They all have their own victory conditions, and I think at least Rome had already achieved it's objectives, and yet, I didn't lose. I think it's a bug.

 

[|Sith|Galvanized Iron]

If this be the case you should provide a screenshot of the Roman faction you think has achieved it's conditions plus diplomacy screen to prove that their target faction has been wiped out. If you can provide that you are welcome to submit it to CA, God knows RTW needs more patches and for more serious issues than yours.

 

[Affonso]

If this be the case you should provide a screenshot of the Roman faction you think has achieved it's conditions plus diplomacy screen to prove that their target faction has been wiped out.

Providing a screenshot that the Romans had already achieved their objectives before me and that I didn't fail as a result, merely proves that the victory conditions are not applicable to all the AI factions, nothing more. It doesn't prove anything about a bug, because if the programmers meant it for someone who picks a short campaign with Parthia to lose if the Egyptians reached their victory conditions before you, then it's only a case of misinformation. Whether this is a bug or not, it is clearly evident that there is something wrong, but I can only know whether this conclusively a bug if I know whether this is purposeful or not, hence someone from CA needs to tell me about this.

If you can provide that you are welcome to submit it to CA, God knows RTW needs more patches and for more serious issues than yours.

You start a short campaign with Parthia after having read the victory conditions; "Hold 15 provinces and destroy our outlast the Seleucids and Armenia". After a few days playing the game, you have taken 7 provinces, destroyed Armenia and you are besieging the last Seleucid settlement. You go back and read the victory conditions; "Hold 15 provinces and destroy our outlast the Seleucids and Armenia". You have destroyed Armenia, check, and now you will destroy the Seleucids, check. Great, If I win this battle I only have to conquer another 7 settlements and I will win the game. But no. Right after you have destroyed the Seleucids, out of the blue, you get a message saying that you have lost the game. Now seriously, do you really think this isn't a situation that shouldn't be addressed? You have just wasted hours on a campaign for nothing. This is clearly a very serious and annoying situation, and I am very reluctant to start a new campaign with another faction for fear of the same thing happening. Unfortunately, we have an opposing "common" sense.

 

[Maiar93]

Why are you so unaware of such possibilities then? I believe that you have played from 2004, yet i don't think you are very informed of this.. this has happened to me many times. And who is noob enough to lose the campaign to AI anyways?

You can check Egypt's victory conditions from the campaign menu. AI can win too, end of story.

 

[Affonso]

Why are you so unaware of such possibilities then? I believe that you have played from 2004, yet i don't think you are very informed of this.. this has happened to me many times. And who is noob enough to lose the campaign to AI anyways?

You can check Egypt's victory conditions from the campaign menu. AI can win too, end of story.

The victory conditions for a short campaign with Parthia read: "Hold 15 provinces and destroy our outlast Armenia and the Seleucids" full stop. They don't say "hold 15 provinces and destroy or outlast Armenia and the Seleucids, BEFORE EGYPT", do they? Had I known about that, and still failed to prevent Egypt from taking over 15 provinces, then the "AI could win too". It's not very difficult to understand.

 

[Chris Death]

To make it short:

Now you know it

Can we finally move on to something more worth being discussed?

~S~ CD

 

[Affonso]

To make it short:

Now you know it

Can we finally move on to something more worth being discussed?

~S~ CD

Well, that's the whole point of the thread isn't it? I may know this now, but it would be nice if the victory conditions were actually stated. Besides, I still don't know whether this conclusively a bug or not.

 

[|Sith|Galvanized Iron]

Providing a screenshot that the Romans had already achieved their objectives before me and that I didn't fail as a result, merely proves that the victory conditions are not applicable to all the AI factions, nothing more. It doesn't prove anything about a bug, because if the programmers meant it for someone who picks a short campaign with Parthia to lose if the Egyptians reached their victory conditions before you, then it's only a case of misinformation. Whether this is a bug or not, it is clearly evident that there is something wrong, but I can only know whether this conclusively a bug if I know whether this is purposeful or not, hence someone from CA needs to tell me about this.

Actually if Rome has achieved it's condition without winning THEN it is a bug, becuase all factions should be able to win regardless if they are AI or not, otherwise there is no competition.

 

[Affonso]

Actually if Rome has achieved it's condition without winning THEN it is a bug, becuase all factions should be able to win regardless if they are AI or not, otherwise there is no competition.

That only makes sense if the victory conditions described in the campaign menu are also applicable to the AI, and in which case it must be specified in my own victory conditions that I am in a race against them. If I start a short campaign with Parthia, and I read the following victory conditions: "hold 15 provinces and destroy or outlast Armenia and the Seleucids" how on earth am I supposed to know that, for instance, I must not let Egypt control 15 provinces as well, and that I must not let Rome destroy Gaul as well, and that I must not let Iberia destroy Carthage as well?

What you say is absolutely nonsensical.

 

[TheFoolOnTheHill]

It took you a few days to conquer 7 provinces vie co played a campain and took 35 provinces

Edit just play the long campaign and I've had the game for 1 and a half weeks

 

[|Sith|Galvanized Iron]

That only makes sense if the victory conditions described in the campaign menu are also applicable to the AI, and in which case it must be specified in my own victory conditions that I am in a race against them. If I start a short campaign with Parthia, and I read the following victory conditions: "hold 15 provinces and destroy or outlast Armenia and the Seleucids" how on earth am I supposed to know that, for instance, I must not let Egypt control 15 provinces as well, and that I must not let Rome destroy Gaul as well, and that I must not let Iberia destroy Carthage as well?

What you say is absolutely nonsensical.

Eh no you can see in the faction selection that each faction got a victory condition, it says "faction win conditions" not "player win conditions".

 

[Affonso]

Eh no you can see in the faction selection that each faction got a victory condition, it says "faction win conditions" not "player win conditions".

Actually, it says "victory conditions", and both you and I know that they specify what you need to do to win, and mention nothing about the other factions, so cut the crap.

I'm not going to carry on this pointless conversation with you. It is clearly obvious that the victory conditions do not mention all of the conditions, and that you persist in refusing to accept a simple fact.

 

[Chris Death]

That only makes sense if the victory conditions described in the campaign menu are also applicable to the AI, and in which case it must be specified in my own victory conditions that I am in a race against them. If I start a short campaign with Parthia, and I read the following victory conditions: "hold 15 provinces and destroy or outlast Armenia and the Seleucids" how on earth am I supposed to know that, for instance, I must not let Egypt control 15 provinces as well, and that I must not let Rome destroy Gaul as well, and that I must not let Iberia destroy Carthage as well?

What you say is absolutely nonsensical.

OK, one last try to convince you about it not being a bug;

You are approaching the whole campaign from the point of view of games like Tomb Raider,
where you are a single character having to walk through a game from beginning to start and
where only the player can win or stops playing due to getting bored.

Now a strategy game like rtw is an enhanced version of let's say shogun or risk, where each
faction was controlled by a human player and every player had the chance to win that game.

Now because it is a single player campaign, the game replaces all your human oponents with ai
players but this doesn't mean that they do not count as players aswell and so will have the same
chance for winning the campaign as you have.

This is a usual feature of strategy games like it has been in dune, command and conquer or age of
empires (just to name only a very few of them).

Even if nowhere in the game you are getting informed about this it should be still very obvious to figure
out on your own, once it happens to you and you should take it like a human player and think
more about what you could do to avoid the ai of winning instead of blaming the developers for
having not informed you properly.

I can't think of any complex strategy game, where the ai does not have the option to win against
a human player.

You should see this rather as a feature than a bug.

~S~ CD

 

[Affonso]

OK, one last try to convince you about it not being a bug;

You are approaching the whole campaign from the point of view of games like Tomb Raider,
where you are a single character having to walk through a game from beginning to start and
where only the player can win or stops playing due to getting bored.

Now a strategy game like rtw is an enhanced version of let's say shogun or risk, where each
faction was controlled by a human player and every player had the chance to win that game.

Now because it is a single player campaign, the game replaces all your human oponents with ai
players but this doesn't mean that they do not count as players aswell and so will have the same
chance for winning the campaign as you have.

This is a usual feature of strategy games like it has been in dune, command and conquer or age of
empires (just to name only a very few of them).

Even if nowhere in the game you are getting informed about this it should be still very obvious to figure
out on your own, once it happens to you and you should take it like a human player and think
more about what you could do to avoid the ai of winning instead of blaming the developers for
having not informed you properly.

I can't think of any complex strategy game, where the ai does not have the option to win against
a human player.

You should see this rather as a feature than a bug.

~S~ CD

You are completely twisting things in a nonsensical manner.
How can I prevent the AI from winning, if I don't even know what I need to do? How should it be obvious to anyone from reading a victory condition which states: "hold 15 provinces and destroy or outlast Armenia and the Seleucids", that they simultaneously cannot let Egypt conquer 15 provinces? You make no sense at all.

I just hope that someone from CA will have the same decency as someone like Tudor93 to understand a very basic point.

 

[Chris Death]

You are completely twisting things in a nonsensical manner.
How can I prevent the AI from winning, if I don't even know what I need to do? How should it be obvious to anyone from reading a victory condition that says: "hold 15 provinces and destroy or outlast Armenia and the Seleucids", that simultaneously they cannot let Egypt conquer 15 provinces before them? You make no sense at all.

I just hope that someone from CA will have the same decency as someone as Tudor93 to accept that there is something very wrong here.

I wish you good luck on that - CD is logging out here at this point

~S~ CD

 

[Caesar's Heir]

You are completely twisting things in a nonsensical manner.
How can I prevent the AI from winning, if I don't even know what I need to do? How should it be obvious to anyone from reading a victory condition which states: "hold 15 provinces and destroy or outlast Armenia and the Seleucids", that they simultaneously cannot let Egypt conquer 15 provinces? You make no sense at all.

What they are trying to say is, in the long campaign, you are not told that the other factions can win. If you let the Numidians go on some rampage and take over a ton of provinces, they will win, even if you can't tell what their victory conditions are. The same rules apply for the short campaign. You may not have known that you had to finish before egypt, but they still have a chance to win.

 

[Affonso]

What they are trying to say is, in the long campaign, you are not told that the other factions can win. If you let the Numidians go on some rampage and take over a ton of provinces, they will win, even if you can't tell what their victory conditions are. The same rules apply for the short campaign. You may not have known that you had to finish before egypt, but they still have a chance to win.

I never encountered this similar problem in any of my campaigns before, long or short. I have lost some campaigns in the past, but because I failed to reach my objectives, such as failing to conquer a number of provinces within the specified time frame for instance, and not because I didn't know them in the first place.

If I am supposed to conquer 15 settlements before a certain faction does, that is also a victory condition, and it should also be specified along the other victory conditions, I don't see any logical reasoning for failing to do so.