Portugal - Discussion Thread

[D.Sebastian]

Just post it here,I will do my best to help.

 

[Geronimo2006]

Good news. Carricanta says a source on a forum has pictures of the mitre Portuguese grenadiers used to wear before the bearhats. This is very hard info to find, as they switched to bearhats in 1740. Watch this space.

GJW, earlier in the thread you asked this question:

1-what are the button patterns? and of what type?
2-how many of these regiments have lapels, if any?

I have translated on Google (not very well) as far as 1761. In 1740, I came across this information:

1740....As the button placement, which occur in the prints of 'Milicia Practices', not quite sure what criteria, if there was any, nor the real goal of its placement, would have any sense or not, or whether they would put to the taste of each, or it is a fantasy illustrator's work. However, a careful analysis leads me to conclude that a logical or hierarchical order, so: from soldier to cable, the uniforms are buttoned with a row of buttons pinned on the right side of his uniform. with the buttonholes on the left; of sergeant on, pass the coats have buttons and caseados on both sides. Notes that the soldiers and grenadiers cables have the buttons grouped two by two, or two buttons in a row, one short interval, followed by two more and so on, until below, is also seeing other uniforms of the Grenadiers buttons in groups of three on three, the infantry soldiers and cable has three buttons grouped into three; of sergeant to lieutenant, exclusive, have the buttons in pairs, one from each side, grouped two by two, finishing buttoning in when they get their pockets, the lieutenant to lieutenant has the buttons in pairs, one on each side, grouped two by two, but even beneath the uniform, from the captain, the buttons are in pairs, as was expressed above, but they are all followed, ie without being bundled up and down.

D.Sebastian, before I start on Lippe, could you translate this for me please? Seems relevant to a unit in India called the Army of Bardez but Google translates it very badly:

1745:
No ano de 1745, o Marques de Alorna requisitiva 'pano verde para casacas de ambos os regimentos e vermelho para os canhóes das mangas e serafina da mesma cor para as véstias; para outro pano cor de ouro escuro para canhóes e serafina-irmá para véstias. Pano vermelho para a tropa da Guarda e para o Corpo de Artilharia e Tropa de Bardez (India Portuguesa), todos de pano azul com cabos vermelhos (canhóes das mangas).

BTW, there are no pictures of armoured cavalry in the 18th century in the book. If there is information about them, they must be in the text instead.

 

[carricanta]

[/spoiler]The cavalryman in the 3rd picture below appears to be wearing such a cap:I also strongly suspect that the word "bandeirantes" is on that page (2nd line). The bandeirantes were the Brazilian equivalent of the bandoleiros in Spanish-America i.e. sortof like cowboys. There is some similarity between the pictures in the second row and these pictures of bandeirantes below:

Well, Bandoleiros* are really Bandoleros in spanish language, is the name for the a kind of bandits/outlaws in Spain

 

[carricanta]

1745:
No ano de 1745, o Marques de Alorna requisitiva 'pano verde para casacas de ambos os regimentos e vermelho para os canhóes das mangas e serafina da mesma cor para as véstias; para outro pano cor de ouro escuro para canhóes e serafina-irmá* para véstias. Pano vermelho para a tropa da Guarda e para o Corpo de Artilharia e Tropa de Bardez (India Portuguesa), todos de pano azul com cabos vermelhos (canhóes das mangas).

1745:
In the year of 1745, Marquess of Alorna demands " green cloth for coats of both regiments and red for the cuffs of the handles and cotton lining of the same color for the jackets; for another cloth dark gold color for cuffs and cotton lining* for jackets. Red cloth for the Guards and for the Artillery and soldier of Bardez (Portuguese of India), everybody with blue cloth with red interweaves (cuffs of the handles).

Feel free in adaptation

 

[carricanta]

1745:
No ano de 1745, o Marques de Alorna requisitiva 'pano verde para casacas de ambos os regimentos e vermelho para os canhóes das mangas e serafina da mesma cor para as véstias; para outro pano cor de ouro escuro para canhóes e serafina-irmá* para véstias. Pano vermelho para a tropa da Guarda e para o Corpo de Artilharia e Tropa de Bardez (India Portuguesa), todos de pano azul com cabos vermelhos (canhóes das mangas).

1745:
In the year of 1745, Marquess of Alorna demands " green cloth for coats of both regiments and red for the cuffs of the handles and cotton lining of the same color for the jackets; for another cloth dark gold color for cuffs and cotton lining* for jackets. Red cloth for the Guards and for the Artillery and soldier of Bardez (Portuguese of India), everybody with blue cloth with red interweaves (cuffs of the handles).

*Serafina-irmá, litterally lining-sister, maybe it would be other kind of lining...

Feel free in adaptation

 

[Geronimo2006]

Thanks Carricanta. Not 100% sure how to interpret what the Marquess of Alorna is saying though in terms of what the uniforms look like. My guess is green coats with green lining and alternating red/blue or just gold cuffs. In 1745, the first and 2nd infantary-regiments in India wore green except for red/dark gold cuffs. I don't know how the artillery dressed because the second sentence isn't precise.

 

[carricanta]

Thanks Carricanta. Not 100% sure how to interpret what the Marquess of Alorna is saying though in terms of what the uniforms look like. My guess is green coats with green lining and alternating red/blue or just gold cuffs. In 1745, the first and 2nd infantary-regiments in India wore green except for red/dark gold cuffs. I don't know how the artillery dressed because the second sentence isn't precise.

Yes it is. I think that is a trouble of adaptation not transaltion, ´cause i made the translation the most exactly possible, and is not precise the information in the original text.

I have this book with pictures and information about portuguese units in Atlantic South (Rio de la Plata)

LAS CAMPAÑAS DE CEVALLOS: DEFENSA DEL ATLANTICO SUR. 1762-1777

http://www.libreria-almena.com/GUERREROS Y BATALLAS.htm

 

[Geronimo2006]

Yes it is. I think that is a trouble of adaptation not transaltion, ´cause i made the translation the most exactly possible, and is not precise the information in the original text.

I have this book with pictures and information about portuguese units in Atlantic South (Rio de la Plata)

LAS CAMPAÑAS DE CEVALLOS: DEFENSA DEL ATLANTICO SUR. 1762-1777

http://www.libreria-almena.com/GUERREROS Y BATALLAS.htm

Thank you Carricanta. But the troops the Marquess of Alorna was talking about were in India (Army of Bardes). He was the Viceroy of Portuguese India.

 

[drum major]

Hi there! my name is Manuel Antonio Ribeiro Rdrigues (drum major) and im the writer of "300 Anos de Uniformes Militares do Exército de Portugal 1660-1960" and a military researcher for over 45 years in Portugal, i recived a days ago a message in other forum "forumdefesa" from denosinha, who showed interest about a grenadier uniform for peraphs a game devolopment about the XVIII wars, im available for sharing informations about portuguese and overseas uniforms, organization and so on. I also had seen that the figures that you displayed have a few errors, that can be easilly repeared.
Hope to get news from you.

Manuel A.Ribeiro Rodrigues.

 

[drum major]

I forgoted my mail is [email protected]

regards

 

[carricanta]

Hi there! my name is Manuel Antonio Ribeiro Rdrigues (drum major) and im the writer of "300 Anos de Uniformes Militares do Exército de Portugal 1660-1960" and a military researcher for over 45 years in Portugal, i recived a days ago a message in other forum "forumdefesa" from denosinha, who showed interest about a grenadier uniform for peraphs a game devolopment about the XVIII wars, im available for sharing informations about portuguese and overseas uniforms, organization and so on. I also had seen that the figures that you displayed have a few errors, that can be easilly repeared.
Hope to get news from you.

Manuel A.Ribeiro Rodrigues.

Hi Manuel! i am "denosinha" in the Forumdefesa , please, take a look to this pictures:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?p=7327230#post7327230

 

[Geronimo2006]

I sent you an email yesterday Manuel. Hope you can provide some information. Thanks.

 

[Gen.jamesWolfe]

I forgoted my mail is [email protected]

regards

PM time!

 

[Ludicus]

I sent you an email yesterday Manuel. Hope you can provide some information. Thanks.

The world´s best expert on the subject.
An extraordinary honor for the TWC forum.
Just a small part of an huge, impressive curriculum:

Com vasta bibliografia publicada, é hoje justamente respeitado como a maior autoridade em uniformologia histórica militar quer no que diz respeito aos uniformes da Metrópole, quer nos referentes às forças Ultramarinas e Expedicionárias. De facto, uniformes militares portugueses ou de regimentos estrangeiros, bombardas, morteiros, minas, armas e armaduras, fortificações militares, Ordens do Dia, Regulamentos, Colecções de leis, organização militar e o dia – a- dia dos quartéis, nada tem segredos para Manuel Ribeiro Rodrigues.
A sua actividade no sector é impressionante: investigador de história militar, colaborador diário durante mais de quin­ze anos do General Manuel Themudo Barata, criador do uniforme de gala para a Banda do Exército, membro do Instituto Rainha Dona Leonor, onde leccionou as cadeiras de história militar e história do traje e aí igualmente res­ponsável pelo Departamento de Exposições Itinerantes e Temporárias; membro do Gabinete de Estudos de História do Exército, da Sociedade Histórica da Independência de Portugal; Prémio «Tenente – Coronel Balula Cid», 1995,do Jornal do Exército; responsável e autor de todos os textos publicados na Secção de Uniformes Militares no «Jornal do Exército», desde Abril de 1975 a Maio de 2001; autor de vasta bibliografia sobre uniformes militares, Guerra do Ul­tramar, 1960-1974,Guerras Peninsulares,1806-1815, Terras da Beira e as Invasões Francesas, Angola e Moçambique du­rante a 1ª Guerra Mundial de 14 -18; consultor de filmes, fez também comunicações em inúmeros seminários de história da Restauração, cursos de cultura portuguesa, Evangeliza­ção e Encontro de Culturas; responsável pela concepção, montagem e empréstimo de peças para dezenas de expo­sições de modelismo e figurinos histórico–militares, nome­adamente a Exposição do Bicentenário das Invasões Fran­cesas e «Napoleão e a sua Época», e os Dioramas sobre o combate do Sula e figurinos militares nos museus militares em Lisboa, Bragança, Chaves e Liga dos Combatentes.

on line - Untitled

 

[carricanta]

The world´s best expert on the subject.
An extraordinary honor for the TWC forum.
Just a small part of an huge, impressive curriculum:


on line - Untitled

Yes, an awesome honor, mr. Ribeiro is an erudite, like Jose María Bueno about spanish uniformology or Rene Chartrand, Michael Barthorp, Mike Chappell...

Obrigado senhor Ribeiro pela sua contribuiçom

 

[Geronimo2006]

I hope he could tell us what those early Brazilian units in the pictures posted here are e.g. the cavalry in red/yellow coats (the ones with the Sertam cavalry).

 

[Gen.jamesWolfe]

I hope he could tell us what those early Brazilian units in the pictures posted here are e.g. the cavalry in red/yellow coats (the ones with the Sertam cavalry).

I hope he can show me more of them plates from the seven years war; if there are indeed more, I'd be tickled-I will be able to make better, and more, portugues army plates.

 

[Vítor Gaspar]

Yes, an awesome honor, mr. Ribeiro is an erudite, like Jose María Bueno about spanish uniformology or Rene Chartrand, Michael Barthorp, Mike Chappell...

Obrigado senhor Ribeiro pela sua contribuiçom

Indeed. This is awesome and I guess nothing of this sort ever happened in TWC. It's not everyday that we have someone over here that has dedicated his life to studying history and is willing to share his knowledge for the development of a TW mod.

Just great.

Um grande obrigado da minha parte e de toda a comunidade portuguesa, e estrangeira, deste fórum

 

[Geronimo2006]

Manuel, Ele Sepoys na Índia usam o mesmo uniforme que o Sepoys em Moçambique? Achei as fotos do Sepoys em seu livro, mas eles parecem ter sido em Moçambique.

 

[carricanta]

Manuel, Ele Sepoys na Índia usam o mesmo uniforme que o Sepoys em Moçambique? Achei as fotos do Sepoys em seu livro, mas eles parecem ter sido em Moçambique.

Gosto muito da fala portuguesa. Obrigado meu amigo

 

[Ludicus]

I sent you an email yesterday Manuel. Hope you can provide some information. Thanks.

Geronimo2006, I think this is the beggining of a beautiful friendship

 

[Geronimo2006]

Gosto muito da fala portuguesa. Obrigado meu amigo

Courtesy of Google Translate.

 

[Geronimo2006]

Here is something Mr Rodrigues told me about the helmets. It seems that some of the dragoons wore leather helmets around 1780, but this was abolished in 1806.

 

[D.Sebastian]

Did he say anything about the cuirasses?

 

[Geronimo2006]

Did he say anything about the cuirasses?

Translated by Google Translate:

the cavalry tricorne they used with a crosshead iron in the crown of the hat,
later, around 1780 but appear some leather helmets
(Assumed to Dragons) I can send you a copy. Regarding the use of (armor) used some breasts of iron, but very few other chest and backs. I can also send iconography about it (but toward the end of the eighteenth century) in 1806 all this was abolished.

 

[Geronimo2006]

Mr Rodrigues has just emailed me a number of historical pictures including: old grenadiers and cavalry-helmets. He confirms that the emblem on the Portuguese Grenadier mitres was an image of a hand-grenade.

D.Sebastian, regarding your question on whether the distinction between "Dragoons" and other cavalry was abolished, he says that it was abolished in 1764. Also, he doubts Portugal ever had Horse-Grenadiers. He thinks the Dragoon helmet might have been worne sometime in 1780-1800 by the Olivenza Dragoons or the Royal Cavalry Guard or Cavalry after 1806.

Quanto aos capacetes, não existem provas da sua utilização. As duas
barretinas que lhe envio o modelo estão no Museu Militar, não se
especifica a que unidade pertenciam, supõem-se que seriam do
Regimento de Dragões de Olivença... e teriam sido utilizados talvez
entre 1780 e 1800. Também se suspeita que seriam protótipos que
depois deram origem ás barretinas da cavalaria da Guarda Real da
Policia e às da Cavalaria de Linha a partir de 1806, mas nada disto é
certo, nem está escrito em lado nenhum.

Quanto ao "folheto" sobre a Guerra da Sucessão" das edições "Brokaw"
compilado por Pat Condray está cheio de erros e de inexactidões, até
possivelmente por má tradução ou intrepetação. penso que é um livro
para esquecer. Quanto ao site que me recomendou sobre a parte
portuguesa desta guerra vou brevemente debruçar-me sobre ela e depois
vou tentar ver os erros que poderá ter.

Sobre os Granadeiros a Cavalo nunca ouvi, nem li que eles tenham
existido em Portugal, alguém deve ter feito confusão. Posso
indicar-lhe que em Portugal no respeitante à Cavalaria o seguinte:

No periodo de 1640 a 1668 houve: Companhia de Lanças que foram
extintas logo após a guerra por volta de 1643; passando a haver:
Couraceiros, Dragões e Arcabuzeiros a Cavalo

Entre 1668 até 1806 havia Cavalaria e Dragões, mas no fundo era tudo
Dragões (só que ainda os distinguiam pelo título, nada mais)

Entre 1806 até c. 1834 era tudo chamado de "Cavalaria",

De c. 1834 até 1910 passou haver Caçadores a Cavalo e Lanceiros

A distinção entre Dragões e os restantes Regimentos de Cavalaria foi
abolida em Portugal pelo Alvará de 24 de Março de 1764, mantendo-se o
uso do tricórneo. Capacetes no género destes poderão ter persistido -
ou aparecido mais tarde - nas colónias portuguesas.


Figura 14 - Este capacete é o mais antigo ainda existente e teria
pertencido a um oficial

Figura 15 - Capacete de soldado do mesmo regimento do anterior, não
tem vestigios nem marcas de insígnias ou emblemas.

Faz tempos que me levantou uma questão sobre quais as unidades de
cavalaria que usavam peitos e capacetes. Bem a resposta apresenta-se
difícil, pois o uso de peitos (armour) não era obrigatório e só
utilizavam quem os tinham no quartel em depósito, muitos desses peitos
tinham sido utilizados durante a Guerra da Restauração entre 1640 e
1668 e o seu uso foi-se mantendo até ao fim do século XVIII, mas só
usavam quem queria (e a maioria não as utilizavam, até porque tinham
pouco efeito sobre as armas de fogo).

FIGURA 11 - Regimento de Cavalaria da Guarda do Vice-Rei da Índia
c.1755 Desenho feito por mim a partir de fontes escritas. Estou certo
de que estes militares utilizavam os peitos, apenas por serem a
Guarda do Vice-Rei e dava-lhes mais aparato.

As for helmets, there is no evidence of its use. The two
shakos that you are sending the model at the Military Museum, is not
specify which unit they belonged, assumed to be the
Light Dragoons Olivença ... and perhaps would have been used
between 1780 and 1800. Is also suspected of prototypes that would
then led the ace shakos Royal Cavalry Guard
Police and the Cavalry Line from 1806, but this is nothing
right, nor is it written anywhere.

As for the "showcase" on the War of Succession "issues" Brokaw "
compiled by Condray Pat is full of mistakes and inaccuracies, even
possibly due to poor translation or intrepetação. I think it is a book
to forget. As for the site who advised me on the part
Portuguese this war will soon look me about it and then
I'll try to see the errors that may have.

About the Horse Grenadiers never heard or read that they have
existed in Portugal, someone must have made confusion. Can
tell you that in Portugal as regards the Cavalry the following:

In the period 1640 to 1668 were: Company of Spears (Lancers?) that were extinct shortly after the war around 1643, going to be:
Cuirassiers, Dragon and Horse Arquebusier

From 1668 until 1806 there were cavalry and Dragons, but in the end it was all Dragons (but still distinguished by the title, nothing more)

Between 1806 until c. 1834 was all called "Cavalry"

Of c. 1834 to 1910 have passed the Hunters and Horse Lancers

The distinction between Dragons and the other Regiments of Cavalry was
Portugal abolished by the Decree of March 24, 1764, keeping the
tricorne use. Helmets gender of those may have persisted -
or appeared later - in the Portuguese colonies

He also sent me this drawing he made of the Guard Cavalry Regiment of the Viceroy of India in 1755, wearing armour:

Spoiler

Next are images of dragoon helmets he sent me:

Spoiler

Grenadiers (I think defending Campo-Maior). Mr Rodrigues says this is early 20th century rather than a source from the time:

Spoiler

Grenadiers in 1740. He says that the musicians may have continued to wear mitres while generally, the grenadiers wore bearskins at this stage:

In the book Milicia Practice, among many illustrations, therethis very curious where you see behind the shako of the grenadier skin, a drum and a fife of the same company to "miter", bear the fifes and drums of infantry stayed with "mitres" as a matter Tradition? It is not known because there is no reference to this,just this picture.

Spoiler

The Marques das Minas before Madrid (1706). What is interesting about this picture is that the cavalry are clearly wearing capotain hats rather than tricornes. However, since I posted them here, Mr.Rodrigues says that the picture below comes from the early 20th century:

Spoiler

Also, Mr Rodrigues said in his email that it is unknown whether the front of the mitres was cloth or metal:

Vou tentar explicar e esclarecer o melhor que posso:

As fontes iconográficas sobre granadeiros com mitras são as que lhe mandei.
Contemporâneas serão: a estátua de Elvas e as figuras dos painéis de
azulejos, que embora do século XVIII não se sabe se são do início, do
meio ou do fim desse século.

As outras figuras Campo Maior e Minas, são pura fantasia executadas no
início do século XX e valem o que valem.

De resto nada se sabe, as cores, os tecidos, se a frente das mitras
eram de pano ou de metal e tudo o mais, nada existe escrito sobre isso
e tudo o que se disser ou é "fantasia" ou será por "comparação", nada
mais.

Mais o informo que a única fonte escrita de que possuo uma cópia ,
estando o original no Arquivo Histórico Militar: trata-se de uma
"Relação de Géneros" datada de 1735, onde mencionam o seguinte :"
Mitras de Oficiais", "Mitras de Soldados" e "Borlas de ouro para as
Mitras de Granadeiros" e mais nada! Isto é o único documento que
existe, ou foi descoberto até hoje, e fui eu, faz cerca de 30 anos que
o descobri no Arquivo durante as minhas investigações.

Aproveito para o informar que o Arquivo Histórico Militar práticamente
só tem documentação a partir do Conde Lippe, ou seja 1762 que se chama
"Arquivo Militar de Lisboa" até à actualidade. Como faço parte da
Associação dos Arquivos Militares, tenho acesso a toda a documentação
"reservada"

Toda a documentação, digamos do Conde Lippe para trás encontra-se no
"Arquivo Nacional da Torre do Tombo" e na "Biblioteca Nacional de
Lisboa", emboram existam núcleos nos arquivos da "Universidade de
Coimbra" e na "Biblioteca do Real Convento de Mafra". A parte
Ultramarina, além dessas bibliotecas, também estão no "Arquivo
Histórico Ultramarino". Todas estas bibliotecas e arquivos eu conheço.
Nem sempre é fácil encontrar o que se pretende, falta de inventários,
de catalogação, etc.

Por curiosidade posso dizer-lhe que fui eu que fiz o levantamento e a
catalogação no Arquivo Histórico Ultramarino da documentação referente
a Cabo Verde e Macau.

Lamento, assim como eu tenho pena, de não ter encontrado mais
elementos (não quer dizer que não os venha a encontrar por mero acaso).

I'll try to explain and clarify the best I can:

The iconographic sources of grenadiers with mitres are the ones that sent you.
Contemporary will be: the statue of Elvas and the images of panels
tiles, that while the eighteenth century is not known whether the initiation of
middle or end of this century.

The other figures Campo Maior and Mines, are implemented in pure fantasy
early twentieth century and are worth what they are worth.

Moreover nothing is known, the colors, fabrics, if the front of the miter
were of cloth or metal, and everything else, there is nothing written about it
and everything that is said or "fantasy" or is it for "comparison", nothing
more.

More to inform you that only written source that I possess a copy,
being the original Military Historical Archive: this is a
"Relationships of Gender" dated 1735, which mentions the following: "
Mithras Officers "," Soldiers of Mithra "and" Tassels for gold
Mithras Grenadier "and more! This is the only document that
exists, or has been discovered so far, and I did, makes about 30 years
found in the Archive during my investigations.

Take this opportunity to inform you that practically Military Historical Archive
only has documentation from the Count Lippe, ie in 1762 called
"Military Archives of Lisbon" to this day. As I am part of
Association of Military Archives, I have access to all documentation
"Reserved"

All documentation, say the Count Lippe is back in
"National Archives of Torre do Tombo 'and' National Library
Lisbon ", although there are core files in the" University of
Coimbra "and" Library of the Royal Convent of Mafra. "The part
Overseas, in addition to these libraries are also in the "File
Overseas Historical ". All of these libraries and I know.
It is not always easy to find what you want, lack of inventories,
cataloging, etc..

Out of curiosity I can tell you it was me who made the survey and
Overseas Historical Archive in cataloging the papers in
to Cape Verde and Macao.

Sorry, as I am sorry not to have found more
elements (not to say that will not meet by chance

He also says that the Halberdiers known as the Royal Guard of Archers/Guarda Real do Principe were only ceremonial:

Olá boa tarde
Efectivamente esta Guarda era apenas cerimonial e encontrava-se
geralmente na Corte. Era composta por 100 portugueses e 100 alemães e
vestiam de " pano silvado de verde e branco, guarnecido de galões de
prata", nada mais se acrescenta.
Aproveito para indicar que o verde e branco eram as cores da casa de
Bragança e por consequ~encia de Portugal.
No ano de 1728 o rei D. João V modificou o uniforme e passou a ser
encarnado "cor de que usaram nossos antigos senhores Reis", os canhões
das mangas e véstias azui escuro agaloadsa a ouro.

Hello good afternoon

Indeed this was only ceremonial Guard and was
usually in court. It consisted of 100 and 100 Germans and Portuguese
dressed in "cloth whistled green and white, studded gallons of
silver ", nothing more is added.

I take to indicate that green and white were the colors of house
Braganza and conse ~ ence of Portugal.

In the year 1728 the King John V changed the uniform and became
red "color that you used our ancient Kings, the cannons
the sleeves and wore dark azui agaloadsa gold.

 

[D.Sebastian]

This was a really interesting post. Just to clarify,Portugal did not have any other guard unit did it? I heard something about some swiss regiments during the reign of Jose I, but I dont know a lot.
And do you know anything about the light troops of Portugal other than the Alorna legion? I read that there was a "legião de voluntarios reais de S. Paulo" in Brazil during the guerra fantástica, which was a mixed legion of light cavalry and infantry,but this is the only thing I know.And about the Alorna legion,is there any information on their uniforms before the XIX century?
Thank you very much for your help

 

[Geronimo2006]

This was a really interesting post. Just to clarify,Portugal did not have any other guard unit did it? I heard something about some swiss regiments during the reign of Jose I, but I dont know a lot.
And do you know anything about the light troops of Portugal other than the Alorna legion? I read that there was a "legião de voluntarios reais de S. Paulo" in Brazil during the guerra fantástica, which was a mixed legion of light cavalry and infantry,but this is the only thing I know.And about the Alorna legion,is there any information on their uniforms before the XIX century?
Thank you very much for your help

There are uniforms for the following units of "voluntarios reais de Sao Paulo" in 1777-1791: Regimento de Cavalaria de Voluntários Reais de Sao Paulo (1777), Regimento de Infantaria dos Voluntários Reais de Sao Paulo (1777), Regimento de Infantaria dos Voluntários Reais de Sao Paulo (1783), Regimento de Cavalaria dos Voluntários de Sao Paulo (1783), Regimento de Infantaria dos Voluntarios Reais da Ilha de Sao Paulo (1791) and Regimento de Cavalaria dos Voluntarios Reais de Sao Paulo (1791). I have made a spreadsheet or plates to describe the pictures. They are all wearing Prussian-blue overcoats, red waistcoats and leather jackboots/gaiters with various colours of lapels/turnbacks/trousers/collars/epaulets. See spreadsheet below:

Spoiler

I had Mr Rodrigues' permission to show the pictures on the previous post, but I don't know whether I am allowed to post them from 300 Anos.

On the Royal Guards, I will ask Mr Rodrigues about a unit I read about online from an A.D. Francis book where he mentioned a "Royal Guard of Strangers" made up of foreigners which was disbanded because the Prime Minister Pombal (in reign of Jose I) distrusted it.

Something else. Mr Rodrigues just sent me an email on the question I had over the capotain hats in the early 20th century picture of the Marques of Minas and his guard entering Madrid in 1706. I was surprised they were wearing capotain-hats rather than tricornes, so I asked if they would have worne them or tricornes. Here was the reply in Portuguese followed by Google Translate:

Não fique surpreendido por ver muitos oficiais com "chapéus
emplumados" "capotain-hats" porque isso estava muito em uso no início
do século XVIII e geralmente os "nobres" , muitos oficiais e a
cavalaria utilizavam esses chapéus como prova da sua "antiguidade" e o
guardar as "velhas tradições". Muitas pessoas levavaram tempo a
adoptar a "moda" e os mais velhos continuavam a utilizar os trajes
antigos, o que é natural e isso ainda hoje acontece (eu não me visto
como os meus filhos)
eles usam "ténis" e eu nunca usei nem usarei!!

Torna-se interessante e por simples curiosidade que durante a Guerra
Peninsular e pelo ano de 1808 ou 1809, havia velhos oficiais que
andavam de tricórneo e casaca, no lugar do uniforme regulamentar. O
que se tornavam numa paródia para os outros oficiais "hold fashion"!
"Square"...enfim...

E como sabe, neste tempo o uso de "uniforme" não era obrigatório para
os oficiais e se eles eram nobres nem admitiam que os obrigassem a
vestirem-se como os seus soldados!!! Que por vezes os soldados dos
seus Regimentos eram quase como criados!

Desde Abril de 1975 que eu tenho uma secção no Jornal do Exército
sobre uniformes militares portugueses e desde essa data que todos os
meses publico um artigo, o que já faz 35 anos consecutivos....! Se
estiver interessado e se me der o seu endereço, eu tenho muito prazer
em enviar-lhe fotocópias dos meus artigos respeitantes ao período de
1640 a 1764 e ai poderá, talvez, encontrar alguns assuntos
interessantes para si.

Do not be surprised to see many officers with "hats
feathered '' capotain-hats "because it was very much in use in early
eighteenth century and generally the "noble", many officers and
cavalry hats used these as evidence of his "seniority" and
save the "old traditions." Many people we took time to
adopting the "fashion" and older continued to use the costumes
old, which is natural and it still happens (I have not seen
as my kids)
they use "tennis" and I never used nor will use!

It is interesting and simple curiosity that during the War
Peninsular and the year 1808 or 1809, there were older officers who
tricorne coat and walked, rather than the regulation uniform. The
they became a parody to the other officers hold fashion "!
"Square" ... finally ...

And as you know, this time using "uniform" was not mandatory for
officers and whether they were nobles or oblige them to admit that
dressing like their soldiers! That sometimes the soldiers
their regiments were almost like servants!

Since April 1975 I have a section in the Journal of the Army
Portuguese military uniform on and since then all
months publish an article, which already makes 35 consecutive years ....! If
are interested and if you give me your address, I'm happy
to send you copies of my articles relating to the period of
1640 to 1764 and there may perhaps find some issues
interesting to you.

 

[D.Sebastian]

Interesting. Does the book say anything about the headgear of the Voluntários Reais de Sao Paulo? The only picture of them that I have is really small, but both the infantry and the cavalry seem to be wearing cavalry helmets. Do you know anything about it?

 

[Geronimo2006]

Interesting. Does the book say anything about the headgear of the Voluntários Reais de Sao Paulo? The only picture of them that I have is really small, but both the infantry and the cavalry seem to be wearing cavalry helmets. Do you know anything about it?

They are wearing tricornes in my pictures. but then so were the Olivenca dragoons bur Mr.Rodrigues says that the picture her showed me of the dragoon helmet may be one worne by them. Carricanta said recently that some dragoons only wore their helmets on horseback. There are many colonial units in the book on foot wearing helmets, but in the 18th century they are not the Voluntarios Reais - at least not in the pictures. But it is possible that there is information on this in the text descriptions. So I will start translating them when I have time.

I have new pictures from Mr.Rodrigues - this time of a a foreign unit originally called the Reais Suiços (Royal Swiss) but then disbanded in 1762 before being reconstituted as the Reais Estrangeiros ("Royal Strangers") created by Lippe in 1764. He drew them himself, and we are lucky because he says they haven't ever been published before. See below:

Spoiler

This is what he says about them:

.. Well the history of Swiss troops is very interesting, but it is very
I long to tell here that you can actually first
have called "Swiss Military" or "Royal Swiss" after its dissolution
by various abuses and theft of their commanders, sent Lippe
hang one and the other fled. The Marquis of Pombal had nothing to do with
this case was handled directly by Lippe.

After the dissolution was decided by the same military set up a
body of troops called "Real Aliens" only "Royal Strangers"
I have in my collection forms the decrees of their creation,
dissolution, etc..

Take this opportunity to arrange a copy of Decree that creates the troops Switzerland
which is June 12, 1762 (this is in my original
private collection).

Transmission also work done by me of the uniforms of Royal
Foreigners. I made this drawing by hand (not the computer) and
I have them all troops from Portugal, Angola, Mozambique, India and
Brazil.

Brazil's besides the troops of the line did it all Bodies
Volunteers and Hosts that there were organized, this work was done
from the manuscripts found in the Overseas Historical Archive
and are more than 40 boards, like these, I drew. Never
published or shown to anyone In fact, you're the first person who
see my work (it is totally unprecedented attention these !...)
uniforms refrain of the Uniform Rules of Count Lippe, 1764!

I have taken note of your address soon send my work to the
your file.

Bom... a história das tropas Suiças é muito interessante, mas é muito
longa para eu a poder contar aqui, efectivamente primeiramente
chamaram-se "Tropas Suiças" ou "Reais Suiços" após a sua dissolução
por diversos abusos e roubos dos seus comandantes, Lippe mandou
enforcar um e o outro fugiu. O Marquês de Pombal nada teve a ver com
este caso que foi tratado directamente por Lippe.
Depois da dissolução foi decidido com os mesmos militares criar-se um
corpo de tropas chamados "Reais Estrangeiros" only " Royal Strangers"
possuo na minha colecção os decretos impressos da sua criação,
dissolução , etc.
Aproveito para,mandar uma cópia do Decreto que cria as Tropas Suiças
que é de 12 de Junho de 1762 (este original faz parte da minha
colecção particular).
Envio também um trabalho feito por mim dos uniformes das Reais
Estrangeiros. Fui eu que fiz este desenho à mão (não ao computador) e
tenho-os de todas as tropas de Portugal, Angola, Moçambique, Índia e
Brasil.
Do Brasil além da tropa de linha fiz de todos os Corpos de
Voluntários e Legiões que lá se organizaram, este trabalho foi feito a
partir dos manuscritos que encontrei no Arquivo Histórico Ultramarino
e são mais de 40 pranchas, como estas, que eu desenhei. Nunca as
publiquei, nem mostrei a ninguém- Aliás você é a primeira pessoa que
vê este meu trabalho (está totalmente inédito!...) Atenção estas
fardas refrem-se ao Regulamento de Uniformes do Conde Lippe de 1764!
Já tomei nota da sua morada brevemente envio os meus trabalhos para o
seu arquivo.
Cumprimentos do
Drum Major
Manuel A. Ribeiro Rodrigues
Já tomei nota do seu endereço e "step by step" vou enviar-lhe os
trabalhos que publiquei.
Cumprimentos

He also showed me the document that created the Tropas Suicas in 1762:

Spoiler