Missile unit ranges in game?

Missile unit ranges in game?

Ecka65

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One thing that has nagged at me is that matchlock's have a shorter range than bows. I didn't know for sure, but it just didn't seem right to me.

Anyway, I did some searching and some reading. I provide the link below as but one reference.

The matchlock had an effective killing range of about TWICE the yumi.

One source, Bryant's Samurai, lists optimum, effective killing range and maximum range respectively for the matchlock and bow as 50m/30m, 200m/80m, 500m/380m.

I have no idea what it does to "game balance", but with so many TW fans looking for "historical accuracy", I'm surprised this one has gone under the radar. I think the only mod thus far has extended the matchlock range to be the same as the bow.

I'm thinking the bow needs to be shorted a tad, and the matchlocks extended a lot!

http://www.japaneseweapons.net/yumiya/yumi/english.htm
 
depends on your definition of "effective"....

Able to penetrate armor and get a kill? sure thing. But actually aiming a smoothbore matchlock 200m is ludicrous. I don't know if you've done much smoothbore shooting, but it's about the same a slug in a smoothbore shotgun, and with weaker powder to boot. Putting a shot on anything over 50-80m is simply irresponsible, as the bullet will quickly loose velocity, and the sheer size of early bullets make them susceptible to the slightest gust of wind past about 30-40 yards.

A Kentucky Rifle, c.1700s, shooting a round ball would be able to be handled at 200m in the hands of a skilled shooter using leather wadding. I think your source may be a bit off in regards to the matchlocks (can't speak to the Japanese bows from experience, though)...
 
for balance purposes, you would have to up the range and damage higher and nerf the **** out of accuracy. This runs into issues with experince as the weapon is inherently inaccurate so skill would not cause a big increase in accuracy, the experience system dosn't model this, all ranged units get the same accuracy boost when leveling
 
I don't propose to be an authority on the matter and take your points. But in comparison to the yumi (let alone the even weaker shorter bow!) even 50m is about double the optimal killing range of the bow. The Japanese didn't use heavy bodkin tipped arrows but rather a much lighter arrow. It just didn't have the same kind of punch. One of the reasons matchlocks exploded into popularity in Japan during this period. The other being that you could pretty much hand one to a farmer, show him how to use it, and he could kill enemies. As opposed to months if not years of training with the bow.

I am a shotgunner so on that point - no problem. :) But I'd say if 100 of us lined up and fired solids you'd be pretty quickly diving for cover at 150 meters. ;) 1% chance of hitting you means pretty good chance you'd get hit.
 
I can't disagree about a volley, but that's why us Americans hid in the woods and shot from cover in the Revolution ;)

And yeah, there was definitely a reason matchlocks exploded in popularity. But i wouldn't think most commanders would want to waste a volley at 200m.... maybe 100-150.

But range isn't everything; Korean bows had a huge advantage in range over Japanese matchlocks, but the sheer power of the guns won the day in a couple of invasions. They just couldn't figure out the concept of canons+ships=naval domination, lol
 
I read somewhere that of the 160,000 that invaded Korea more than a quarter were gunners.

I suppose the issue for me has been that bows mulch matchlocks at 120m. Because the matchlocks can't fire. Bows still mulch matchlocks even at 100m because (a) the matchlocks had to march into position under fire (b) the arrows are deadly at that distance and (c) the bows naturally have a faster rate of fire. I think the bows should probably have to come to the matchlocks...
 
I read somewhere that of the 160,000 that invaded Korea more than a quarter were gunners.

I suppose the issue for me has been that bows mulch matchlocks at 120m. Because the matchlocks can't fire. Bows still mulch matchlocks even at 100m because (a) the matchlocks had to march into position under fire (b) the arrows are deadly at that distance and (c) the bows naturally have a faster rate of fire. I think the bows should probably have to come to the matchlocks...

Those of you who are comparing this stuff to the American Revolution, keep in mind this is 200 years before the American Revolution. It's 1550-1600. The guns were really primitive in comparison.

It's well documented that bows were far more effective killing machines than guns during this period. The advantage of guns was not that it killed faster or better, but it required less skill to use vs a bow in a large conscript army.

Guns were very inaccurate once you move out of the 100m range. This is true even during the Napoleonic period. It's only when they got rifling when they got deadly.
 
One thing that has nagged at me is that matchlock's have a shorter range than bows. I didn't know for sure, but it just didn't seem right to me.

Anyway, I did some searching and some reading. I provide the link below as but one reference.

The matchlock had an effective killing range of about TWICE the yumi.

One source, Bryant's Samurai, lists optimum, effective killing range and maximum range respectively for the matchlock and bow as 50m/30m, 200m/80m, 500m/380m.

I have no idea what it does to "game balance", but with so many TW fans looking for "historical accuracy", I'm surprised this one has gone under the radar. I think the only mod thus far has extended the matchlock range to be the same as the bow.

I'm thinking the bow needs to be shorted a tad, and the matchlocks extended a lot!

http://www.japaneseweapons.net/yumiya/yumi/english.htm

This has always bothered me too. Hey, bows are great, but THEY DID NOT OUTRANGE GUNS, EVER, PERIOD. CA has always seemed to have a bow fetish.
 
I felt the same in Empire tbh. Gun ranges are way too low. You should be able to fire at long range if you want to, even if it is very ineffective.
Having your units hold fire until the right moment is an important part of musket style warfare, reducing the range just makes it noob friendly so that bad players can just leave everything on Fire at Will and it will always be effective.

There is actually a mod that does what you want, TRoM3 http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=437673
It's pretty cool and is well designed so you can tailor it pretty much exactly how you like quite easily, i'm not a fan of the new units for example so don't use them. Pretty solid mod overall, small tweaks that give a lot alternate ways to play.
 
You must also remember that the gunpowder have improved a lot since 1500. They used serpentine powder which is the first type of black powder. Fine powder is more powerful, but it built too much pressure too fast for the guns of the day. The ingredients frequently exploded during creation with these processes and many powder makers met their demise while plying their trade. Even after preparation, serpentine powder was unstable, unreliable and gained moisture, or hydrated, easily. It was particularly affected by decomposition during transit and frequently had to be recombined before it could be used in battle. It was very tricky to load a gun with serpentine powder because if it was packed too tightly it caused the gun to explode.
 
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I felt the same in Empire tbh. Gun ranges are way too low. You should be able to fire at long range if you want to, even if it is very ineffective.
Having your units hold fire until the right moment is an important part of musket style warfare, reducing the range just makes it noob friendly so that bad players can just leave everything on Fire at Will and it will always be effective.

There is actually a mod that does what you want, TRoM3 http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=437673
It's pretty cool and is well designed so you can tailor it pretty much exactly how you like quite easily, i'm not a fan of the new units for example so don't use them. Pretty solid mod overall, small tweaks that give a lot alternate ways to play.

It might be more towards the limitation of the engine rather than not being able to tweak the game. Remember in ETW how people used the Shrapnel shot with their cannons and snipe your men at ranges that far exceeded the cannon? Yeah...that was lame.
 
The last innovation in matchlocks was the adoption of the musket around 1520 by the Spanish. This was the most powerful matchlock that it was felt could be carried and fired by one man, being between 18-22 mm (0.72-0.90 calibre) with barrels of at least 1 metre. It was also powerful enough to smash through the heaviest armour at ranges under 50 metres. A forked stand, or monopod, was carried by the musketeer to support the weight of the gun when firing. By this period, pikemen had been relegated to a supporting role, and infantry and musketry became synonymous.​
Why the handgonne came to replace other projectile weapons in the late medieval period is not immediately clear and a bit beyond the scope of this short paper. The introduction of the English longbow to European warfare in the early 1300s coincides closely with the invention of the gun. The rapid improvements in armour that this innovation caused eventually dulled its effectiveness. Longbows were cheap and powerful, but required large expenditures in training and feeding troops so that they could be skilled enough and strong enough to use the bow. Thanks to the finds on the Mary Rose, it has been proven that the medieval longbow had a draw weight of up to 68kg (150 lbs). With a hardened steel arrowhead, contemporary observers speak of the ability to penetrate 4 inches of oak at short range.
 
depends on your definition of "effective"....

Able to penetrate armor and get a kill? sure thing. But actually aiming a smoothbore matchlock 200m is ludicrous. I don't know if you've done much smoothbore shooting, but it's about the same a slug in a smoothbore shotgun, and with weaker powder to boot. Putting a shot on anything over 50-80m is simply irresponsible, as the bullet will quickly loose velocity, and the sheer size of early bullets make them susceptible to the slightest gust of wind past about 30-40 yards.

A Kentucky Rifle, c.1700s, shooting a round ball would be able to be handled at 200m in the hands of a skilled shooter using leather wadding. I think your source may be a bit off in regards to the matchlocks (can't speak to the Japanese bows from experience, though)...

Which is as applicable today as then...ever fire a .223 on a windy day?
 
Disregarding realism, guns are weak as hell in this game. They have less range, they shoot slower, and they cannot fire over walls in sieges. Frankly I think guns should have the open field advantage atleast if bows are going to be far and away better at sieging.

I use the matchlock units once in a while just for fun but in the back of my mind I'm always thinking how much better my army would be if instead of gunners they were bow samurai.
 
The portrayal in Shogun 1 was the correct one, except insofar as the range of all projectile weapons was higher than the range at which they were used in reality. Guns were used at longer range than bows, because they caused significant casualties at ranges where bows were ineffective and hence not worth using. In the late Sengoku era, bows were used to support guns by shooting enemies that made it through the gunfire to a range where the arrows could actually cause damage. Someone commented that it was 'well documented' that bows were more effective during this period. OK, if it's so well documented, cite a contemporary source. According to the Toyotomi chronicler of the Imjin Wars, the 'curtain of arrows' fired by the Koreans was 'wiped out with gunfire': "Taiko ki," Shiseki shuran, vol. 6, ch. 29, p. 309. That is pretty much what happened every time the Japanese used guns against Korean archers. Did the Shimazu and others generals sent to Korea ask for more bows so they could counter the recurved composite bows used by Koreans? No, they asked for guns - nothing but guns: Shimazu Yoshihiro to Hishijima Kii no Kami, 9th moon, 28th day, Bunroku 1 (1592). What did Asano Yoshinaga think about guns?

"I have killed a large number of enemy soldiers, because I used the guns I practised with, for so many years, at your place." Asano Yoshinaga to Inatomi Ichimu, 1st moon, 10th day, Keich6 3 (1598)

"When troops come [to Korea] from the province of Kai, have them bring as many guns as possible, for no other equipment is needed. Give strict orders that all men, even the samurai, carry guns." Asano Yoshinaga to Asano Nagamasa, 1st moon, 11th day, Keich6 3 (1598)

This reflects the general tenor of opinion, not just in Japan but also in other places where bows and guns were being used alongside each other - guns were better weapons, not merely cheaper or easier to use, but better, e.g. Roger Williams, A Briefe Discourse on Warre (1590) (Williams, who served on both sides in the Eighty Years War in the Low Countries and actually saw longbows in use, was writing at a time when the cost of equipping an English company with shot was 50% greater than equipping with bows). That is why not just ashigaru but also samurai used them in the late Sengoku era - they could and did train all their life in the use of the traditional weapon of the samurai (the bow), and so would have been fine military archers had they chosen to take their bows to war. But did they? No, by and large they used the spear but when they did take a projectile weapon instead (which became increasingly common as the Sengoku Jidai drew to a close) it was the gun. Who is anyone alive to claim to know the samurai's weapons better than the samurai themselves?
 
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Thankyou Furious Mental - if rep was enabled for you I'd have happily given it.

I can accept that my issue and modding stream (projectile and bow vs matchlock effectiveness) is a bit of a niche. It won't appeal to many. I can also accept that CA makes games to play a certain way and hence make balance decisions that outside of the game may not make a lot of sense.

However...

This is what happened in this period of Japanese military history. The gun took over from the bow. By the time we start our campaigns, matchlocks were being produced in Japan (albeit in the 1540's at low but increasing numbers). By the 1560's they were a major and primary missile source of most armies fielded. Over 25% of all troops that went to Korea were exclusively gunners. And they blew the Koreans away.

But what we have to contend with in the game is archers that can dominate battles - and dominate matchlocks!? Japanese archers - nowhere near as effective or ranged as the Koreans!? Worst is that the archers can penetrate the best armor in the game at extreme ranges, one reason the gun took over is that it actually could and the bow could not. Then there's the ridiculously long and tedious research tree just to get matchlocks. To have them in the numbers that presented on Japanese battlefields pretty much requries the player to studdy nothing but and then build nothing but. Not to my liking at all.

Anyways, thanks for the informative (and informed) post.
 
The portrayal in Shogun 1 was the correct one, except insofar as the range of all projectile weapons was higher than the range at which they were used in reality. Guns were used at longer range than bows, because they caused significant casualties at ranges where bows were ineffective and hence not worth using. In the late Sengoku era, bows were used to support guns by shooting enemies that made it through the gunfire to a range where the arrows could actually cause damage. Someone commented that it was 'well documented' that bows were more effective during this period. OK, if it's so well documented, cite a contemporary source. According to the Toyotomi chronicler of the Imjin Wars, the 'curtain of arrows' fired by the Koreans was 'wiped out with gunfire': "Taiko ki," Shiseki shuran, vol. 6, ch. 29, p. 309. That is pretty much what happened every time the Japanese used guns against Korean archers. Did the Shimazu and others generals sent to Korea ask for more bows so they could counter the recurved composite bows used by Koreans? No, they asked for guns - nothing but guns: Shimazu Yoshihiro to Hishijima Kii no Kami, 9th moon, 28th day, Bunroku 1 (1592). What did Asano Yoshinaga think about guns?

"I have killed a large number of enemy soldiers, because I used the guns I practised with, for so many years, at your place." Asano Yoshinaga to Inatomi Ichimu, 1st moon, 10th day, Keich6 3 (1598)

"When troops come [to Korea] from the province of Kai, have them bring as many guns as possible, for no other equipment is needed. Give strict orders that all men, even the samurai, carry guns." Asano Yoshinaga to Asano Nagamasa, 1st moon, 11th day, Keich6 3 (1598)

This reflects the general tenor of opinion, not just in Japan but also in other places where bows and guns were being used alongside each other - guns were better weapons, not merely cheaper or easier to use, but better, e.g. Roger Williams, A Briefe Discourse on Warre (1590) (Williams, who served on both sides in the Eighty Years War in the Low Countries and actually saw longbows in use, was writing at a time when the cost of equipping an English company with shot was 50% greater than equipping with bows). That is why not just ashigaru but also samurai used them in the late Sengoku era - they could and did train all their life in the use of the traditional weapon of the samurai (the bow), and so would have been fine military archers had they chosen to take their bows to war. But did they? No, by and large they used the spear but when they did take a projectile weapon instead (which became increasingly common as the Sengoku Jidai drew to a close) it was the gun. Who is anyone alive to claim to know the samurai's weapons better than the samurai themselves?

The reason for this could also be simply because the Korean recurve bows were far superior to the yumi. The Japanese would be idiots to use an inferior bow against the Koreans when they had an alternative that was cheaper and easier to use along with their advantage in numbers. It could have been a choice forced out of necessity.
 
The portrayal in Shogun 1 was the correct one, except insofar as the range of all projectile weapons was higher than the range at which they were used in reality. Guns were used at longer range than bows, because they caused significant casualties at ranges where bows were ineffective and hence not worth using. In the late Sengoku era, bows were used to support guns by shooting enemies that made it through the gunfire to a range where the arrows could actually cause damage. Someone commented that it was 'well documented' that bows were more effective during this period. OK, if it's so well documented, cite a contemporary source. According to the Toyotomi chronicler of the Imjin Wars, the 'curtain of arrows' fired by the Koreans was 'wiped out with gunfire': "Taiko ki," Shiseki shuran, vol. 6, ch. 29, p. 309. That is pretty much what happened every time the Japanese used guns against Korean archers. Did the Shimazu and others generals sent to Korea ask for more bows so they could counter the recurved composite bows used by Koreans? No, they asked for guns - nothing but guns: Shimazu Yoshihiro to Hishijima Kii no Kami, 9th moon, 28th day, Bunroku 1 (1592). What did Asano Yoshinaga think about guns?

"I have killed a large number of enemy soldiers, because I used the guns I practised with, for so many years, at your place." Asano Yoshinaga to Inatomi Ichimu, 1st moon, 10th day, Keich6 3 (1598)

"When troops come [to Korea] from the province of Kai, have them bring as many guns as possible, for no other equipment is needed. Give strict orders that all men, even the samurai, carry guns." Asano Yoshinaga to Asano Nagamasa, 1st moon, 11th day, Keich6 3 (1598)

This reflects the general tenor of opinion, not just in Japan but also in other places where bows and guns were being used alongside each other - guns were better weapons, not merely cheaper or easier to use, but better, e.g. Roger Williams, A Briefe Discourse on Warre (1590) (Williams, who served on both sides in the Eighty Years War in the Low Countries and actually saw longbows in use, was writing at a time when the cost of equipping an English company with shot was 50% greater than equipping with bows). That is why not just ashigaru but also samurai used them in the late Sengoku era - they could and did train all their life in the use of the traditional weapon of the samurai (the bow), and so would have been fine military archers had they chosen to take their bows to war. But did they? No, by and large they used the spear but when they did take a projectile weapon instead (which became increasingly common as the Sengoku Jidai drew to a close) it was the gun. Who is anyone alive to claim to know the samurai's weapons better than the samurai themselves?

Read Thomas Conlan's work on this subject. Battle statistics don't lie.

As for the documents you're citing, there's actually a much better explanation -- they don't need bows, because they already have them and they are easily obtainable in Korea. Guns, on the other hand, can only be imported from Japan, since Koreans didn't have guns. So they ask for the item they can't get from Korea and do not ask for the item they can get in Korea. It's really quite simple and doesn't imply that guns were superior, just that guns were needed from Japan.
 
The Korean bow was better than the Japanese longbow, but Japanese arquebusiers (used in conjunction with archers, it should be noted) still dominated. The point I was making is that Shogun 1 had it right - the matchlock troops (arquebusiers and 'musketeers') had longer range than bows, which reflected the fact that the matchlock was in fact fired from longer distance in the Sengoku Jidai - it caused serious casualties at ranges where arrow fire would be desultory at best.

But what we have to contend with in the game is archers that can dominate battles - and dominate matchlocks!? Japanese archers - nowhere near as effective or ranged as the Koreans!? Worst is that the archers can penetrate the best armor in the game at extreme ranges, one reason the gun took over is that it actually could and the bow could not. Then there's the ridiculously long and tedious research tree just to get matchlocks. To have them in the numbers that presented on Japanese battlefields pretty much requries the player to studdy nothing but and then build nothing but. Not to my liking at all.

I agree. I think the set up in the game as it is now is silly. As far as the tech tree goes, I find the ridiculously long process silly as well, but what is also silly is that you research 'gunpowder mastery' and suddenly you are building matchlocks in every castle, with ranked fire, etc, etc. Historically, guns appeared early on but it took some time for production to proliferate across the whole country and their use in battle to be perfected.
 
The reason for this could also be simply because the Korean recurve bows were far superior to the yumi. The Japanese would be idiots to use an inferior bow against the Koreans when they had an alternative that was cheaper and easier to use along with their advantage in numbers. It could have been a choice forced out of necessity.

That doesn't even make sense.

Because the Korean Bow is far superior, they deicided to use the 'inferior' weapon instead of a weapon they are trained and accustomed to from the years of practice?
 
That doesn't even make sense.

Because the Korean Bow is far superior, they deicided to use the 'inferior' weapon instead of a weapon they are trained and accustomed to from the years of practice?


the inferior weapon is the yumi
 
Were the Japanese bows inferior to most other bows of that period? How did they compare to the Longbow for instance?
 
As for the documents you're citing, there's actually a much better explanation -- they don't need bows, because they already have them and they are easily obtainable in Korea. Guns, on the other hand, can only be imported from Japan, since Koreans didn't have guns. So they ask for the item they can't get from Korea and do not ask for the item they can get in Korea. It's really quite simple and doesn't imply that guns were superior, just that guns were needed from Japan.

I've read Conlan's book. If I recall, he said the Japanese bow had an effective killing range of 14m. My point exactly.

As far as the Japanese generals' comments are concerned, Occam's razor applies. Contemporary sources are quite clear in stating that Japanese forces armed with guns dominated the battlefield in Korea, until the Koreans and their Chinese allies deployed mathlocks and artillery in large quantities. It is unnecessary to cook up hypotheses unsupported by contemporary documents, unless of course one has already decided that bows were better and so every piece of contradictory evidence has to be explained away. If you'd like to back up your theory by referring to some evidence that the Japanese in fact started using the unfamiliar Mongol recurved bows of the type which were found in Korea, go ahead.

Moreover, the Japanese generals in Korea did not merely ask for more guns, they asked for every new soldier - ashigaru and samurai both - to come so armed. They were not merely requesting weapons which could not be obtained in Korea, they were seeking a higher proportion of matchlocks in their armies. Men who were going to handle other weapons were of no use to them. So the requests to Japan do not merely show that 'guns were needed from Japan', it shows that they were needed because they were the weapon which gave the Japanese their great tactical advantage, and that this tactical advantage was to be maximised.

What did the Koreans think about this? Well here's what Korean official Yu Song-Nyong said:

it was really because the Japanese had the use of muskets that could reach beyond several hundered paces, that always pierced what they struck, that came like the wind and the hail, and with which bows and arrows could not compare.

Overdoing a bit, perhaps, but the tenor of the comment is clear.
 
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Excuse me, 14 m is absolute utter nonsense. If I remember correctly, Musashi states in Go-Rin-No-Sho, that bow is of little use when enemy is farther than 40 yards (about 36 meters), but that implies direct, aimed fire. If the opponent is heavily armored, the arrow must hit a chink or uncovered space - but no armor protects you from an arrow in the eye.

Both European and Asian archers used indirect fire in battles, aiming into the air in 45 degrees for maximum distance - you can shoot much farther like that, and the arrow always has killing power. My guess would be anything from 100 to 200 meters.
 
14m is the figure that I recall Conland gives, for what it is worth. Either 14m or 36m is still much less than 80m, which is the figure which the Zohyo Monogatari gives for the effective range of arquebus bullets.

As far as indirect fire at ranges of 100 to 200m goes, you are welcome to cite contemporary sources to support the proposition that archers regularly fired in such manner and such range in Japan during the Sengoku Jidai period. Otherwise it is just more conjecture, or as you say yourself, it is your 'guess' based on generalisations from practices by 'European and Asian archers'. The Zohyo Monogatari was pretty clear in indicating how bows were to be used - place one archer between two matchlockmen, so as to cover the reloading interval. Massed use of archers firing at area targets beyond the effective range of arquebuses is not, I believe, mentioned anywhere in that text.
 
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I put a link in the OP. Down the bottom if gives some numbers. The link is not a "be all and end all" source. But I found its numbers to be reasonably consistent with other sources I've read.

The point all along has been:

(a) The long Japanese bow had an effective killing range of half the matchlock
(b) The shorter versions of the bow were even weaker
(c) The matchlock was THE armor piercing weapon of the period. Neither Japanese or Korean arrows were designed like English heavy bodkins.

So why are bows in the game effective at 150m? Armor piercing at 150m? And why on earth are matchlocks unable to fire at anything over 100m??? I'd have thought, not terribly unfair questions.
 
Interesting to read :)


Wiki:



Length

A longbow must be long enough to allow its user to draw the string to a point on the face or body, and the length therefore varies with the user. In continental Europe it was generally seen as any bow longer than 1.2 m (4 ft). The Society of Antiquaries says it is of 5 or 6 feet (1.5-1.83 m) in length.[11] Richard Bartelot, of the Royal Artillery Institution, said that the bow was of yew, 6 feet (1.83 m) long, with a 3 foot (914 mm) arrow.[12] Gaston Phoebus, in 1388, wrote that a longbow should be "of yew or boxwood, seventy inches [1.78 m] between the points of attachment for the cord".[13] Historian Jim Bradbury said they were an average of about 5 feet and 8 inches.[14] All but the last estimate were made before the excavation of the Mary Rose where the bows were found to range in length from 1.87 to 2.11 m (6 ft 1 in to 6 ft 11 in) with an average length of 1.98 m (6 ft 6 in).[15]
[edit] Range and penetration

The range of the medieval weapon is unknown, with estimates from 165 to 228 m (180 to 249 yds). Modern longbows have a useful range up to 180 m (200 yd). A 667N(150 lbf) Mary Rose replica longbow was able to shoot a 53.6 g (1.9 oz) arrow 328 m (360 yd) and a 95.9 g (3.3 oz) a distance of 249.9 m (272 yd).[16] A flight arrow of a professional archer of Edward III's time would reach 400yds. It is also well known that no practice range was allowed to be less than 220yds by order of Henry VIII.[17]
The longbow had a long range and high accuracy, but not both at the same time. Most of the longer range shooting mentioned in stories was not marksmanship, but rather thousands of archers launching volleys of arrows at an entire army. Longbowmen armies would aim at an area and shoot a rain of arrows hitting indiscriminately at anyone in the area, a decidedly un-chivalrous but highly effective means of combat. An archer could hit a person at 165 m (180 yards) "part of the time" and could always hit an army.[citation needed]
Gerald of Wales commented on the power of the Welsh longbow in the 12th century:
... n the war against the Welsh, one of the men of arms was struck by an arrow shot at him by a Welshman. It went right through his thigh, high up, where it was protected inside and outside the leg by his iron cuirasses, and then through the skirt of his leather tunic; next it penetrated that part of the saddle which is called the alva or seat; and finally it lodged in his horse, driving so deep that it killed the animal.[18]
In a modern test, a direct hit from a steel bodkin point penetrated Damascus chain armour.[19][20]
However, even heavy draw longbows have trouble penetrating well made steel plate armour, which was used increasingly after 1350. A 2006 test was made by Matheus Bane using a 75 lbf (330 N) draw (at 28") bow, shooting at 10 yards; according to Bane's calculations, this would be approximately equivalent to a 110 lbf (490 N) bow at 250 yards.[21] Measured against a replica of the thinnest contemporary "Jack coat" armour, a 905 grain needle bodkin and a 935 grain curved broadhead penetrated over 3.5 inches (89 mm). ("Jack coat" armour could be up to twice as thick as the coat tested; in Bane's opinion such a thick coat would have stopped bodkin arrows but not the cutting force of broadhead arrows.) Against "high quality riveted maille", the needle bodkin and curved broadhead penetrated 2.8". Against a coat of plates, the needle bodkin achieved 0.3" penetration. The curved broadhead did not penetrate but caused 0.3" of deformation of the metal. Results against plate armour of "minimum thickness" (1.2mm) were similar to the coat of plates, in that the needle bodkin penetrated a small amount, the other arrows did not penetrate. In Bane's view, the plate armour would have kept out all the arrows if thicker or worn with more padding.
Other modern tests described by Bane include those by Williams (which concluded that longbows could not penetrate maille, but in Bane's view did not use a realistic arrow tip), Robert Hardy's tests (which achieved broadly similar results to Bane), and a Primitive Archer test which demonstrated that a longbow could penetrate a plate armour breastplate. However the Primitive Archer test used a 160 lbf (710 N) longbow at point blank range, generating 160 joules (vs. 73 for Bane and 80 for Williams), so probably not representative of battles of the time. Other research has also concluded that later medieval armour, such as that of the Italian city state mercenary companies, was effective at stopping contemporary arrows.[22] Archery was described by contemporaries as ineffective against plate armour in the Battle of Neville's Cross (1346), the siege of Bergerac (1345), and the Battle of Poitiers (1356); such armour became available to European knights of fairly modest means by the late 14th century, though never to all soldiers in any army. Strickland and Hardy suggest that "even at a range of 240 yards heavy war arrows shot from bows of poundages in the mid- to upper range possessed by the Mary Rose bows would have been capable of killing or severely wounding men equipped with armour of wrought iron. Higher-quality armour of steel would have given considerably greater protection, which accords well with the experience of Oxford's men against the elite French vanguard at Poitiers in 1356, and des Ursin's statement that the French knights of the first ranks at Agincourt, which included some of the most important (and thus best-equipped) nobles, remained comparatively unhurt by the English arrows."[23]
Modern tests and contemporary accounts agree therefore that well made plate armour could keep out longbows, however there are a number of caveats to this point; not all plate armour was well made or well looked after, and there were also weak points in the eye and air holes and joints where arrows could still penetrate, meaning that even if the armour was proof against nearly all arrows, being shot at by thousands of longbowmen would have been an uncomfortable experience, physically and mentally. One contemporary French account described the barrage at Agincourt (against French knights wearing plate armour) as a "terrifying hail of arrow shot".
Full plate armour of the highest quality was also extremely expensive, only used by the most elite (and rich) soldiers, such as knights; the vast majority of soldiers were not armoured in plate from head-to-toe. Even for knights, in practice their horses tended to be less well protected, meaning that longbows could kill or wound the horses even when the arrows had little effect against the knights themselves. For example, shooting the French knights' horses from the side (where they were less well armoured) was used effectively by the English longbowmen to help win the Battle of Poitiers.
[edit] Shooting rate

A typical military longbow archer would be provided with between 60 and 72 arrows at the time of battle. Most archers would not loose arrows at maximum rate, as it would exhaust even the most experienced man. "With the heaviest bows (a modern warbow archer) does not like to try for more than six a minute."[24] Not only are the arms and shoulder muscles tired from the exertion, but the fingers holding the bowstring become strained; therefore, actual rates of shooting in combat would vary considerably. Ranged volleys at the beginning of the battle would differ markedly from the closer, aimed shots as the battle progressed and the enemy neared. Arrows were not unlimited, so archers and their commanders took every effort to ration their use to the situation at hand.
Nonetheless, resupply during battle was available. Young boys were often employed to run additional arrows to longbow archers while in their positions on the battlefield.[25] "The longbow was the machine gun of the Middle Ages: accurate, deadly, possessed of a long range and rapid rate of fire, the flight of its missiles was likened to a storm."[2] This rate was much higher than that of its Western European projectile rival on the battlefield, the crossbow. It was also much higher than the standard early firearms (although the lower training requirements and greater penetration of firearms eventually led to the longbow falling into disuse).
 
So why are bows in the game effective at 150m? Armor piercing at 150m? And why on earth are matchlocks unable to fire at anything over 100m??? I'd have thought, not terribly unfair questions.

I think it is just a reflection of the approach which has been taken toward guns and bows in most TW games albeit not, as I said above, in the first Shogun. Someone in another thread commented that archers
have often been represented as basically the equivalent of machine guns, notwithstanding that historically their effective use in battle was rather more nuanced than:

(1) Place bows within maximum parabolic range of enemy
(2) Wait
(3) Victory
 
Birk, thanks it is a great read! It would be even better if we were actually discussing English Longbows made of yew. But we're actually talking about Japanese Yumi made of bamboo. And the arrows were also made from bamboo and were very light.
 
I agree. I think the set up in the game as it is now is silly. As far as the tech tree goes, I find the ridiculously long process silly as well, but what is also silly is that you research 'gunpowder mastery' and suddenly you are building matchlocks in every castle, with ranked fire, etc, etc. Historically, guns appeared early on but it took some time for production to proliferate across the whole country and their use in battle to be perfected.
I guess this is what the research mean to represent. The process of developing methods to manufacture the guns, and once you found one then all the forgeries in your clan will be informed on how to do it. The ranked fire is a natural and very intuitive way of employ the guns. I still ask why in the name of heaven you had to research that tactic in ETW. As far as the guns early appearance you can "buy them" from the Portuguese at a fairly early stage of the game, but it comes with the complication of another religion to manage.

As for the range of the bows, I was really shocked the first time I saw the numbers of the real range of this bows. Their size is deceiving! I believed they where almost as good as a long bow. To be historically correct it should be lowered a lot, and the range of the guns increased. But I think that there's a way to represent this better. It seems that the range of the projectile fired from the gun and the range of the unit are two different values. So let's say we put the bullet range with a 500 max range with a reduced power from distance, I think the value on the Damage at Range Effectiveness column on the projectiles table is the one that should be used. And the unit carrying the muskets should have a range of say 50 to 100 mt, with a bad accuracy, so any stray shoot can still on theory keep going and hit some one else (if lucky)?
This way both the unit of musketeers and the weapon behavior will be more accurate.
 
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