Flemish and Dutch MOD

Taxandrius

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As there are some other mods focusing on specific regions as the Balkan ( Ogniem i Meiczem ) and HRE ( Das heilige Römische Reich ), there should be one about Europe's battlefield ( modern day Belgium and the Netherlands ) to !
I have already placed a post in the FLEMISH faction names project, but her's it again:

I was planning to start with a mod focusing on Belgium and the Netherlands in the Middle Ages ( circa 1050 - 1350 )

The faction list would be:
duchy of Brabant
county of Flanders
county of Hainaut
county of Loon
Prince-Bischopric of Liège
county of Namur
county of Luxembourg

duchy of Limburg
county of Gelre
county of Gulik
county of Holland
duchy of Kleef

county of Rethel
county of Vermandois
county of Amiens
county of Ponthieu

Archbischopric of Trier?
Archbischopric of Köln?


I've got no experience with modding, but I presume those tutorials can help me out :laughter::mod:
Anyone interessed? PM !

So, get on your pc's, you Flemish and Dutch patriots ! :laughter:
 
Hey Tax,

Me being dutch & all, I should be psyched to see more dutch regions, but I think only 2 or three dutch regions should be added, cuz they (we:)) weren't so hot during those times as far as I know. Not even sure those regions you mentioned existed during the middle ages!!!

Besides, are you talking aboot a blown-up campaign that zooms in on the lowlands?

Matz
 
well you know in the middelages limburg where like 32 indepent states (very small) so if you need faction pick of those

and hup holland ;)
 
I need help with the Dutch in my mod, Modern Medieval that focuses on modern day countries with medieval units and whatnot.
 
Not even sure those regions you mentioned existed during the middle ages!!!

Before I posted, I did a little research. The factions I mentioned do exist !
I'm currently busy with Flemish ( Flanders and Brabant ) history. Adding some Dutch factions would be a good idea.

Besides, are you talking aboot a blown-up campaign that zooms in on the lowlands?

Matz

Yes I do! The idea is making a map stretching from northern France to the Northern ( or Middle ) part of the Netherlands. My idea is a map on a larger scale with a lot of little provinces ( Like Herentals region, Ghent region, ... )

We don't want to rush our mod so making it would take several years.
Currently, I'm searching some Dutch and Flemish lad's ( not only dutch and Flemish people, English, American etc. are welcome to ! ) with ( some ) modding experience.

plz PM me if you're interessed !
 
I'm Dutch to but I don't think that the Dutch deserve a spot in the medieval ages, except in the eyes of patriots like u (which im not). If I were u, I would just wait until Empire: total war comes out in which I guess they are a faction.
 
This game is pretty much about rewriting history, so I'd think there aren't any problems with implementing the Dutch, but I do agree with eggthief that it might make more sense to wait until the Golden Age.. Then again if we stretch it we could make the game up until "we" seperate from the Spanish :p.

But Tax, convince me ;). Not that hot a modder, but I generally have a way with text...

Matz

NB: Gelukkig verlaat nieuwjaar!
 
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it might make more sense to wait until the Golden Age..

I thought about it, but history after the rise of the burgundians (?) in Flanders wasn't that exciting ( except for the Netherlands ).
Another point would be firearms. Warfare without firearms has an extra dimension.

Not that hot a modder, but I generally have a way with text...

We could use yer help ! :thumbsup2 PM OR MAIL ME

NB: Gelukkig verlaat nieuwjaar!

Van't zelfste !!:laughter:


Tax
 
The real thing I'm thinking about is what fun gameplay would this mod bring!?! For example an italian mod promises Papal interference, but what would we have in this mod, Protestants? Why would someone want to play this mod and not another, aside from dutch people ;).

Other thing is distance, the region is very small, so reaching a province won't be a problem in general. The real way of solving that is creating more obstacles (walls, forts), or implementing 6 turns per year :p. Bit of an exaggaration, but see my point?

Matz
 
Yes I do ...
Good point...

The real way of solving that is creating more obstacles (walls, forts)

I tought about some obstacles: as this map would be on a larger scale, rivers would be larger to. To navigate on the Schelde (?) or the Rhine would be cool, isn't it ?
But yer right, not that much obstacles...

The real thing I'm thinking about is what fun gameplay would this mod bring!?! For example an italian mod promises Papal interference, but what would we have in this mod, Protestants? Why would someone want to play this mod and not another, aside from dutch people
About the underlined part: ...:hmmm:
If I quote my teacher of history in English, it would sound like this:
"Flanders and the Netherlands are situated between the 3 great powers of the Middle Ages: England, France and the Holy Roman Empire (of the German Nation)"
I said in a previous post Flanders and the Netherlands were the battlefield of Europe: It was a battlefield of England, France and HRE !! An interference of one of these factions and the response of the other ones would be normal !!

About the bold part:
Why isn't this part included in those Ogniem i Meiczem threads ???!!
Why should a struggle between 3 supreme empires of Europe be boring ?


But, Ok, I get it, you just killed my posts :shothead:

Matz - Tax: 1-0


Taxandrius
 
This could be very interesting though I would recommend having small portions of the hre france and england on the edges. I would also suggest putting it in the 13th or 14th century and condensing the factions a bit to be more realistic.
 
as a dutch i think that making this mod isn't a bad idea.
however,you don't have to make a gigantic "lage landen" supermod,but you may keep it simple.you don't have to add 50 provinces in flanders only,but only 5,and 8 in the netherlands.I also suggest is to add england, a (western) part of the HRE,and france with paris included on the map (and maybe even the bourgondian region (and faction) itself).would be great to see units with "goedendag",replaying the "gulden sporenslag",develope as naval power in the netherlands and reunite the netherlands=>total war=>great gameplay.

ps:maybe only dutch people will play this (or maybe not).but who cares?this mod is not a bad idea,it even seems good.however,i don't hope that you will work" several years" on it, but a several months.make it new,but not too new and complicated,like lands to conquer 4 with italian,hundred years war and reconquista campaign,if you make you're mod that way,it will be a great mod!!;)

veel succes!!!
 
Basileos
you don't have to make a gigantic "lage landen" supermod,but you may keep it simple.you don't have to add 50 provinces in flanders only,but only 5,and 8 in the netherlands
The original idea: keep most of the basic units and buildings, smaller map, but on a larger scale, and circa 10 in Flanders and 15 in the Netherlands (few provinces makes less gameplay).



Basileos
I also suggest is to add england, a (western) part of the HRE,and france with paris included on the map (and maybe even the bourgondian region (and faction) itself).
I thought about it, but if we want to include the whole of France and Burgundy, we'll have to include most of Austria, Spain, etc., but including only a part of France would give a militairy and political incorrect situation.
:hmmm::hmmm::hmmm::hmmm:
so:
The King Of Peasants
I would recommend having small portions of the hre france and england on the edges.
:thumbsup2
Basileos
i don't hope that you will work" several years" on it, but a several months
I know, but I pretty busy ( school ) the following months.

would be great to see units with "goedendag",replaying the "gulden sporenslag",develope as naval power in the netherlands and reunite the netherlands=>total war=>great gameplay
What about a name like uniungite Flandria et Hollandia ??
Basileos
ps:maybe only dutch people will play this (or maybe not) but who cares?

Right !!

Now, I've got your support (at least of 2 of you :laughter: ), but now I need your help. I've got almost no modding experience ( the part of research is more suited for me ) and my friends who have the experience are also very busy and don't know everything about modding, so help would be welcome.
PM OR MAIL ME

to Belgain and Dutch people: merci vr de steun !

Taxandrius
 
i understand your problem,but sorry i can't help.i do already research work for DotS and i hope that you now that belgium schools are one of the most difficult of whole europe:tongue: !(so school is killing me too).

and secondly the reason why i do research is because of the fact that i have no modding experience by myself too,so i can't do such important stuff(too complicated).

i hope that you will find some support for your mod,but if you don't,then the last thing that you can do is to contact the people from lands to conquer to make such campaign (with you ofcourse),because this is the kind of campaign they've made in version 4,like the hundred years war and reconquista (only spain and north africa).

cheers!
 
Ok,


Recruiting for a mod focusing on the Netherlands and the Belgium region​

(possible working title: de Flandria et Hollandia ("about (modern) Flanders and the Netherlands"))
description: In my previous posts I told I was planning to make a mod about Flanders and the Netherlands ( circa 1050 - 1350 ).
The faction list would be:
duchy of Brabant
county of Flanders
county of Hainaut
county of Loon
Prince-Bischopric of Liège
county of Namur
county of Luxembourg

duchy of Limburg
county of Gelre
county of Gulik
county of Holland
duchy of Kleef

county of Rethel*
county of Vermandois*
county of Amiens*
county of Ponthieu*
(*could be replaced by 'France')

Archbischopric of Trier?**
Archbischopric of Köln?**
(**could be replaced by 'HRE')

England?

( map following in one of my next posts )

scope: a normal/little conversion of ME2TW about the region between France, England and HRE in the early/late period ( 1050-1350). (new map, some new, special units, new names, hist. events,....).

we need modders with experience of almost every part of modding( not neccecary assembled in 1 person :p ):
skinners
3D artists
2D artists
etc.
NO EXPERIENCE NEEDED !

contact: PM or mail me ( I think there's a link on my profile )

Team structure: Taxandrius -> research and general help
IOMILIVS#MAXIMVS -> units and map help
Zorin ->scripting and map?

Website: in one of our next posts​
 
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I will also join taxandrius in his idea but I need a little bit information about the units that we could use
 
But, Ok, I get it, you just killed my posts :shothead:

Matz - Tax: 1-0

Taxandrius

Hahahaha, I'm not trying to shoot it down or whatever, I just think its something we need to think about!!! Because I do think that if its doable and interesting, this could be a great mod :). Just need to get a good angle.

I LOVE the traversing of canals (Schelde, Rheine etc) by the way!

Matz
 
I am interested in helping out, the thing is I'm not convinced there's any real gameplay that adds to the game in focussing on Flanders & Holland.. I dont know a heck of a lot on the subject, and that alone makes me have doubts.

Outside of flavour, why would I want to play this mod?

Matz

NB: voor ik allemaal vrije tijd ga opgeven vind ik t gewoon fijn om een idee te hebben van richting, waar je/jullie/wij heen zouden gaan.
 
I am interested in helping out, the thing is I'm not convinced there's any real gameplay that adds to the game in focussing on Flanders & Holland.. I dont know a heck of a lot on the subject, and that alone makes me have doubts.

Outside of flavour, why would I want to play this mod?

Good piont Matz, that's why I'm going to explain you a small part of the history of the region we call today the Low Countries:

After the treaty of Verdun (843), the old empire of Charlemagne was divided ( after the dead of Charlemagne's son, Louis the Pious, his three surviving sons divided his empire in three parts: Lothair got the middle part ( Low Countries, Alsace, Lorraine, Burgundy and the Provence ), Charles the Bold got the western part ( = France ) and Louis the German got the Eastern part ( = HRE ). After the dead of Lothair II, the middle part had no longer a ruler. The king of Frans and the HRE emperor decided to divide his kingdom themselves, but meanwhile, the small territories in the middle empire realised they where free to do whatever they wanted. France and the HRE made these small states vassals. Flanders became part of France, Brabant ( + everything more eastern ) and the counties and duchies in the Netherlands became part of the HRE.
The HRE was a large empire and hard to handle, so the nobles at the borders became semi-independant. In the early years of the 12th century, the official HRE emperor and his son, the self-proclaimed new emperor, struggled for power and loyal feudal lords. Meanwhile, some duchies and counties established at the border of the HRE and the HRE emperors noticed they could be faithfull allies. The old emperor of HRE had crowned the duke of Limburg as duke of Lower Lorraine, but when the new emperor, the son of the one who crowned the duke of Limburg, rose to power, he discharged the duke of Limburg ( because the duke was loyal to the old emperor ) and made one of his loyal allies, Godfried I of Brabant duke of lower Lorraine. Later, the duke of Limburg was crowned again as Duke of Lower Lorraine by the old Emperor, who won the struggle in HRE, but the duke of Brabant and his allies weren't to happy with his removal and started a long series of struggles in the Low Countries.

At the same moment, the Netherlands profitted of the situation and gained there independance ( althoug they were "loyal" to the HRE emperor when they could gain profit out it )

In the west Flanders was a vassal to the French king. A Flemish noble, Baldwin I With The Iron Arm ( cool name isn't it? ) captured the daughter of the French king Charles the Bald, and forced him to give his family more power and independance. Baldwin became the first count of Flanders and started to add semi-independant parts of France to his county.

after 1000 AD, most parts of the region were independant and struggling to gain the upperhand in the Low Countries. Flanders and Brabant florished, each at there own way. Brabant expanded his territory to the north and the west and became one of the suppreme powers in the region after the Battle of Woeringen ( 1288 ). Flanders florished with the trade. Bruges was called the Venice of the north and the Flemish cities had a population close tho the number of inhabitants of London and Paris. England and Flanders became exeptionally rich with this trade.

But England, HRE and France wanted to gain profit to.
HRE was weakened, so the emperor couldn't solve his problems on his own and asked the Prince-Bisshop of Köln and the Prince-Bisshop of Trier for help. These two weren't very happy with the expansion of Brabant and formed and alliance with some neighbouring counties and duchies. Brabant did the same. The alliance of Brabant and the German alliance called their allies to arms and met at Woeringen. After a fierce battle, the duke of Brabant triumphed. Now, HRE had a important enemy at his borders !

France wanted Flanders back and assembled an army to tell them. After a period of anxiety, France marched into Flanders with a well trained army of profession soldiers. Flanders had almost no professional soldiers and formed an army of peasants and militiamen. In 1302, they lined up near Kortrijk. Result of the battle: a huge defeat of the professional army by the Flemish militiamen, armed with "goedendags" . Flanders got arrogant after the victory at Kortrijk, but were defeated shortly after. In the meanwhile, their cities became more independant from there count and cities like Ghent became pretentious. The coalition of large cities attacked the armies of the count and his loyal, smal cities. After a while, the count got his power back.

Brabant and Flanders realised they where both very powerfull and decided they could better form an alliance by marriage. This wasn't a very clever act, because the count of Flanders claimed the important centres of commerce in Brabant like Antwerp (inharitance of his wife ) after the death of the duke of Brabant. This was the start of a new series of struggles.

Flanders and Brabant realised too late the danger of France and Burgundy.
the ruler of Burgundy, Philip the Bold, related to the king of France, defeated the armies of Flanders near Westrozebeke in 1389. This battle, together with a very clever politic of marriage was the end of the independant duchies and counties. In the 14th century, Flanders and Brabant ruled almost the whole of The Southern Netherlands. The dukes of Burgundy planned a series of marriages. after some years, almost every state in the Belgium-region was a part of the burgundian dukes. This region was inherited by the Spanish line of the Habsburgers at the end of the middle ages.

Meanwhile, the regions in the Netherlands struggled to, but preserved their independance. When the "Belgian" politic of commerce, expansion and marriage failed, the "Dutch" politic worked out perfectly and was the start of the Golden Age of the Netherlands much later ...


You see, this was an exciting period, HRE, France and England struggled for power on this area, the battlefield of Europe, the Low Countries !!

( Tomorrow I'll tell you why and how ( ran out of time :doh:) )

Tax
 
I am interested in helping out, the thing is I'm not convinced there's any real gameplay that adds to the game in focussing on Flanders & Holland.. I dont know a heck of a lot on the subject, and that alone makes me have doubts.

Outside of flavour, why would I want to play this mod?

Good piont Matz, that's why I'm going to explain you a small part of the history of the region we call today the Low Countries:

After the treaty of Verdun (843), the old empire of Charlemagne was divided ( after the dead of Charlemagne's son, Louis the Pious, his three surviving sons divided his empire in three parts: Lothair got the middle part ( Low Countries, Alsace, Lorraine, Burgundy and the Provence ), Charles the Bold got the western part ( = France ) and Louis the German got the Eastern part ( = HRE ). After the dead of Lothair II, the middle part had no longer a ruler. The king of Frans and the HRE emperor decided to divide his kingdom themselves, but meanwhile, the small territories in the middle empire realised they where free to do whatever they wanted. France and the HRE made these small states vassals. Flanders became part of France, Brabant ( + everything more eastern ) and the counties and duchies in the Netherlands became part of the HRE.
The HRE was a large empire and hard to handle, so the nobles at the borders became semi-independant. In the early years of the 12th century, the official HRE emperor and his son, the self-proclaimed new emperor, struggled for power and loyal feudal lords. Meanwhile, some duchies and counties established at the border of the HRE and the HRE emperors noticed they could be faithfull allies. The old emperor of HRE had crowned the duke of Limburg as duke of Lower Lorraine, but when the new emperor, the son of the one who crowned the duke of Limburg, rose to power, he discharged the duke of Limburg ( because the duke was loyal to the old emperor ) and made one of his loyal allies, Godfried I of Brabant duke of lower Lorraine. Later, the duke of Limburg was crowned again as Duke of Lower Lorraine by the old Emperor, who won the struggle in HRE, but the duke of Brabant and his allies weren't to happy with his removal and started a long series of struggles in the Low Countries.

At the same moment, the Netherlands profitted of the situation and gained there independance ( althoug they were "loyal" to the HRE emperor when they could gain profit out it )

In the west Flanders was a vassal to the French king. A Flemish noble, Baldwin I With The Iron Arm ( cool name isn't it? ) captured the daughter of the French king Charles the Bald, and forced him to give his family more power and independance. Baldwin became the first count of Flanders and started to add semi-independant parts of France to his county.

after 1000 AD, most parts of the region were independant and struggling to gain the upperhand in the Low Countries. Flanders and Brabant florished, each at there own way. Brabant expanded his territory to the north and the west and became one of the suppreme powers in the region after the Battle of Woeringen ( 1288 ). Flanders florished with the trade. Bruges was called the Venice of the north and the Flemish cities had a population close tho the number of inhabitants of London and Paris. England and Flanders became exeptionally rich with this trade.

But England, HRE and France wanted to gain profit to.
HRE was weakened, so the emperor couldn't solve his problems on his own and asked the Prince-Bisshop of Köln and the Prince-Bisshop of Trier for help. These two weren't very happy with the expansion of Brabant and formed and alliance with some neighbouring counties and duchies. Brabant did the same. The alliance of Brabant and the German alliance called their allies to arms and met at Woeringen. After a fierce battle, the duke of Brabant triumphed. Now, HRE had a important enemy at his borders !

France wanted Flanders back and assembled an army to tell them. After a period of anxiety, France marched into Flanders with a well trained army of profession soldiers. Flanders had almost no professional soldiers and formed an army of peasants and militiamen. In 1302, they lined up near Kortrijk. Result of the battle: a huge defeat of the professional army by the Flemish militiamen, armed with "goedendags" . Flanders got arrogant after the victory at Kortrijk, but were defeated shortly after. In the meanwhile, their cities became more independant from there count and cities like Ghent became pretentious. The coalition of large cities attacked the armies of the count and his loyal, smal cities. After a while, the count got his power back.

Brabant and Flanders realised they where both very powerfull and decided they could better form an alliance by marriage. This wasn't a very clever act, because the count of Flanders claimed the important centres of commerce in Brabant like Antwerp (inharitance of his wife ) after the death of the duke of Brabant. This was the start of a new series of struggles.

Flanders and Brabant realised too late the danger of France and Burgundy.
the ruler of Burgundy, Philip the Bold, related to the king of France, defeated the armies of Flanders near Westrozebeke in 1389. This battle, together with a very clever politic of marriage was the end of the independant duchies and counties. In the 14th century, Flanders and Brabant ruled almost the whole of The Southern Netherlands. The dukes of Burgundy planned a series of marriages. after some years, almost every state in the Belgium-region was a part of the burgundian dukes. This region was inherited by the Spanish line of the Habsburgers at the end of the middle ages.

Meanwhile, the regions in the Netherlands struggled to, but preserved their independance. When the "Belgian" politic of commerce, expansion and marriage failed, the "Dutch" politic worked out perfectly and was the start of the Golden Age of the Netherlands much later ...


You see, this was an exciting period, HRE, France and England struggled for power on this area, the battlefield of Europe, the Low Countries !!

( Tomorrow I'll tell you why and how ( ran out of time :doh:) )

Tax
 
ducy of limburg ^^
make them way too strong xD
nice idea :)

edit: plzz add Heerlen as a city :please:
and make achmed the merchant of rotterdam :muslim:
 
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I am interested in helping out, the thing is I'm not convinced there's any real gameplay that adds to the game in focussing on Flanders & Holland.. I dont know a heck of a lot on the subject, and that alone makes me have doubts.
Hi all,

To be honest I have similar concerns. If you're including all the factions you listed, it will be a huge work, and you'll probably end up with very similar/units and no real flavour.

Personally, I think it's better to keep it small, a bit like the Kingdoms campaigns or the campaigns in Lusted's LTC mod: fewer factions, smaller (but more detailed) map, fewer turns. And add a few "eye catchers". The navigatable rivers are a good one. Maybe also throw in some scripted events (e.g. French invasion, flood disasters, English army lands during 100 Years War).

Looking at the history posted above, I'd say 1300-1400 is a good timeframe to focus on. At 2 turns/year = 200 turns, which is plenty. It's also the time of some important characters, like Robrecht van Béthune, Willem van Gulik, Jan II van Brabant. Maybe use them as Kingdoms-style "heroes" for each faction. Add stone forts on the map, an emerging faction (like the Barons Alliance), and you have campaign that keeps the interest of the player.

You don't need 10+ factions for this. Just try to make each faction special, not only their units but also their strategy: e.g. Flanders has to fight off France early in the campaign, Brabant has to fight Burgundy later.

Just a few ideas :)
 
about the factions: we could get rid of some of them but some smaller factions must be included becouse of their historical importance.

about the eye catchers: nice idea, some stone forts !, maybe some like in the Brittannia Campaign of kingdoms. Navigatable rivers are a must, but only the large ones ( I saw something like the navigatable rivers on another mod forum ).
about those events; what about: the rise of Jacob van Artevelde ( huge revolt in Gent etc, less power for the flemish count ), the assasination of Jacob van Artevelde ( more power for the count), the Council of Kortenberg ( sort of governement established in Brabant, less power for the duke ), end of the Council ( more power for the duke ), invasion of France in 1301/1302 ( huge French army attacks Flanders ), English army lands in Flanders.

an emerging faction: Burgundy ???

if we change the Time frame to 1150 - 1400, we could have a more interesting game and more 'heroes' like duke Jan I from Brabant ( and some others of course )

again, these are just mere ideas, so feel free to brainstorm :laughter:
Anyway; WE NEED MODDERS please, making a mod with 3 lad's with no experience is quite difficult ( I'm trying to arrange something with the lad's from The Lion of Flanders )

PM me !!!!


Tax
 
Hey Taxandrius, being Belgian myself, I think this mod could be a very good idea. But why not focus on a really small timeframe, e.g. the period from 1200 to 1400, when the Flemish war for independance was fought against the French. You could implement historical events, like the landing of king Edward to help the Flemish in their struggle. If you would make this mod, wouldn't it be a good idea to focus on the citystates? You could make Flanders a faction, but with the different provinces producing specific units of the time, like Brugse Vrije Militia, or Gentse Borluut or Arteveldemilitia. I have tons of ideas for a mod like this. Only thing is that I'm not a skinner or something, just somebody who likes research very much:cool: I would like to learn to make maps for this game.
 
In between my examinations, I have started to try and make a map. At the moment I am working on the height map. The map is based on charts of this region from around the 14th century, hence there are islands and water where there are landmasses nowadays. I'm a n00b at this, so I'm following tutorials found on this site. What do you think, work further on this, or quit it?:)
 
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this is a good idea for a mod :thumbsup2 although i must say Im surprised you aren't including the duchy of lower lorraine...

oh and have you got the prince-bish of utrecht? i cant remember...:hmm:

Good luck with it all :)
 

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