Boiling oil

[Inquisitor54]

... Or rather, the lack of. I'm really quite surprised that it doesn't seem to be in the game at all. Once the enemy ram reaches the gate, they seem to be able to sit there quite safely. Rome had boiling oil in, and the original Medieval had some sort of defence for the gates. Kind of strikes me as odd, given that I'd kind of expect ramming down the gate a somewhat brutal task.

On another note, what sort of sized garrisons are you using for your castles? I was keeping mine fairly large, till my finances were becoming rather stretched, so I cut them down.

Then the Mongols turned up.

 

[RexMortali]

I attacked York a couple of hours ago and when my ram reached the gate it got on fire. It was destroyed. I'm not sure if it was boiling oil or not - didn't look so closely. But i had a second ram as well and they didn't burn that one. But i lost about 70 spearmen due to that :S

 

[Valhalla89]

that was probably fire arrows... i dont think oil is in the game.

 

[GVP]

It's not in. I miss it so much. There were a couple of oppurtunites where it would kill a leats 50 enemy soilders.

 

[Soulghast]

Don't use rams on cities with stone walls, they will get burned.I think that boiling oil should be in, but I don't think it was the oil that burned your ram.

 

[Iskander]

'murder holes' and boiling oil were integral to many medieval castles.. What were they thinking...
Although have to say in RTW I always sapped through the walls to avoid the oil, so in a way oil wasn't all that fair on the AI..

I've noticed that assaulting in wet weather seems to reduce the chance of your rams etc going up in flames...

Isk...

 

[Taelok]

To be honest, oil was too powerful in Rome, especially considering the hard time the AI had getting through gates when they charged their entire force through it. You'd win from the oil alone.

Sometimes it was worth not fixing your walls after the enemy had battered your gate down, just so they'd get stuck in the door.

Still, I'd like a toned down version in M2TW, it was a nice defensive feature.

Plus watching people burn is always fun

 

[Pooki]

Plus watching people burn is always fun

Amen to that

 

[Inquisitor54]

From what I've seen, the gates go down a lot quicker in M2 than in Rome, so I don't know, maybe it would be more balanced if it were in. Would be nice to have some sort of deterrent to rolling a load of rams up, though.

 

[avesta]

I've noticed that assaulting in wet weather seems to reduce the chance of your rams etc going up in flames...

Isk...

That's awesome. But do the rams and siege towers generally catch fire as easy as they did in RTW? I'd usually have about 3 or 4 units of archers and they could almost set any siege equipment on fire with a few volleys.

 

[Iskander]

That's awesome. But do the rams and siege towers generally catch fire as easy as they did in RTW? I'd usually have about 3 or 4 units of archers and they could almost set any siege equipment on fire with a few volleys.

Well I'd say it's pretty easy setting anything on fire with 300 odd fire arrows..

But yes, it does seem as easy, in one assault, a tower alone set a siege tower on fire before it got half way, but then my ram made it to the gates intact, so luck or randomness plays a big part.. Siege equipment was generally made with green wood, this does not burn as easily due to it's wetness, then you cover it with wet hides and it should theoretically be way more flame retardent than in the game...
I know it's a game and these things do need some abstraction, but the siege is an aspect where CA could do so much to make it a bit more fun/involved...

Assign each province with a 'dominant tree' type... Pine burns so much easier than oak..
Assign each province with a tree density... It should take much longer to build a seige tower in the desert due to lack of wood...

Make it harder for cities to destroy siege equipment but add a bonus to this chance for each level of 'engineers buildings' (catapult maker etc)

When an assault starts a popup that asks you how to divide your defences and you assign a % of (intrinsic) men to for example counter sapping, manning the towers to shoot at siege equipment, manning the walls to repel ladders, manning the gates to throw rocks down on rams.
So if each was at 25% then it's even odds, but each percentage over or under 25% is a + or - bonus in taking out the opposed equipment..
Worried about siege towers, put 35% of your defence in the wall towers and get a 10% bonus against them... But that might mean less men over the gates and a greater chance (10%) their rams get through the gates...


Anyway, didn't mean to hijack the thread..

I'd like to see oil back in, yes it was overpowerd in RTW, but i think thats more because it was a constant effect, in reality they'd only have a few cauldrons ready and waiting over the gates and it would take a long time to replenish.. So make it a one maybe 2 shot thing not a bleeding 'carwash'...

As for sapping, a breach in a wall is not a nice smooth gap cav can get through, it's generally a pile of rubble no horse could get past easily... This needs to be resolved I think... Cav should only be allowed through a gate...

I'm yet to do an assault where I have more casualties than the defenders, and this is sooo wrong... Sadly I don't think this will change much because the AI wouldn't cope with an assault if it was any harder..

Iskander...

 

[Fondor_Yards]

Lol it wasn't the same oil your thinking of. Your thinking of the stuff we use to make gas and plastics right? I don't think that was the stuff they used. I thought they used boiling vegatable oil.

 

[Candelarius]

@Hospitaller

According to this Wiki article, you're probably correct, boiling oil doesn't seem to have been very popular.

Still, I'm surprised there isn't some sort of static defence mechanism, like murder holes or something.

Personally, I'm more dissappointed that sapping was removed, since it was a very common seige method.

 

[Candelarius]

Lol it wasn't the same oil your thinking of. Your thinking of the stuff we use to make gas and plastics right? I don't think that was the stuff they used. I thought they used boiling vegatable oil.

No! It was most certainly not vegatable oil! I don't think vegetable oil was invented until the Industrial Revolution. I couldn't find a websource on it, but, the oil used to burn people in the middle ages really was oil.

 

[Fondor_Yards]

Oh my bad then

 

[Pjoo]

It was fun in R: TW extended greek mod when you played as Romans, and greeks came to siege you with their starting full stack army. they had elephants, so ofc they assault immediatly. I had stone walls at besieged city, so it had boiling oil too. When elephant came knocking my doors, it was oiled immediatly and died. Next one walked to gate, just like nothing had happened to last one. Massproducting food is fun . Also, captain was in the elephant unit, so nice suicide there

 

[paleeagle]

I dont know if I am getting this wrong as i havent come across a situation to see yet. But in the manual it says that you need troops near defensive features(eg balista towers etc) for them to function. Maybe it is the same for the gates?

Dont shout at me if i am wrong I am just throwing the question in

 

[Daveman]

I hope so -- I always hated how even if a castle had no men in it in Rome there was always effective archer fire coming from the towers.

Also if the siege equipment burns a little too easily it's probably CA's way of promoting artillery equipment.

 

[Soulghast]

Maybe the could allow the units that are in the walls to throw oil on enemies.That would be fun! Just kidding of course.

 

[BeachedWhale09]

I agree that the oil in Rome was too strong. Defending the gates were really easy if you had a unit of spearmen or a phalanx. Just hold the enemy in the gateway and they all die from oil. However i would like to see oil in M2 just not that strong and with probably 3 or so uses. What else might be cool is somehow telling the gatehouse when to dump it.

 

[Iskander]

No! It was most certainly not vegatable oil! I don't think vegetable oil was invented until the Industrial Revolution. I couldn't find a websource on it, but, the oil used to burn people in the middle ages really was oil.

Olive oil for instance was produced even in the time of RTW...

It certainly wasn't crude oil they used as it was pretty rare, Marco Polo witnessed the 'mining' of seep oil in Baku in 1264 and it took about 200 years before it was mined in eastern europe, France started mining oil sand in about 1700's..

Considering the lack of oil tankers, it was still far more profitable to fill your trade ships with spices, olive oils and other luxuries than some black substance of dubious value...
Yes dubious.. Even when in 1815 it was produced as a byproduct from brine wells in Pennsylvania (US) it was 'undesirable'...

Isk...

 

[paleeagle]

Alas I have stationed a unit near the gatehouse in many seiges and Boiling oil is definately not in.

 

[Kroz]

In MTW, you're oil would run out after awhile.

 

[spartacus1001]

While they didn't use Oil as we think of it, they definitely did use burning water, pitch, and heated sand. I don't mind them just using the black texture for the liquid, but they should re-add that to the game.