1% on Steam= Not Relevant.

1% on Steam= Not Relevant.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Semper_Fidelis

You're gonna need a bigger boat.
Joined
Jul 24, 2012
Messages
483
Reputation
18
Points
20
Location
Canada
I don't really know enough about the statistical analysis for the percentage of people that play a certain amount of turns, but there seems to be something fishy about them saying that there is only 1% of people that play pass 300 turns and that's a steam statistic. It's only 1% apparently, but the Total War games that are required for Steam only have 300 turns give or take. Rome 1 had over 500 I think, and I own bought the disk, not off steam. The point I'm trying to make is that while only 1% of people pass 300 turns may be true, that could only be the people that play Rome Total War on steam because Rome is the only one you CAN play past 300 turns, the population or percentage of people that play Rome Total War on steam is not anywhere as big as the people that play Empire, Napoleon and Shogun 2. Also many of my games such as Empire have been modded to have more turns because I like more turns. However there could be something I'm missing.
 
These statistics are phoney, bad science- used to sugar coat a commercial decision.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Rome 1 is an awful game, and the less Rome 2 resembles it the better.
 
I dont have time now but you are very wrong. I did a survey of every game forum in the forums and those that participated showed that they play less than 150 turns per game on average.
I did the same poll on R2 but because of bias and hysteria everyone voted completely different.

anyways like I said before, the decision is sound and you do not speak for us. speak for yourself.
 
Unfortunately it will resemble it very much
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Rome 1 is an awful game, and the less Rome 2 resembles it the better.

I suggest you get ready for the incoming truckloads of rage commentaries on this.


deleted half the post. Some of the edits made by the moderator made some of my comments have no sense at all xD
 
Last edited:
You can play past the end-year in Shogun 2 if you wish. The game keeps going, there's no "Sorry, you fail. Game over". You already got your information wrong. Of course most complainers didn't know this, because they never even reach the 240 turn end-year.
 
Why do threads so often deteriorate into insults being thrown around? Can we have a discussion without saying "If you don't like it don't buy it"?

Thread Cleaned. Let's stay on topic. The topic is CA's use or misuse of statistics, what role they play in game design, how they can be interpreted, etc....
 
How many people can claim to have finished all campaigns? To the very end of the time allowed on that game? I remember people bragging about how they managed to stick through a campaign and actually finish it, instead of the VAST MAJORITY who quit the campaign after they know victory is assured and they are the unstoppable military juggernaut.

The statistic is valid. Disagreeing doesn't mean it's wrong. I honestly do wish people would stop being so overly critical of those who make the games they enjoy...
 
Face the truth, RTW is an ice-age old game and the number of people playing it now is nowhere near those who play S2TW. NTW or ETW. Stats are valid. It's funny how people consider some forum poll's results as facts while ignore stats on much larger scale.
 
I don't really know enough about the statistical analysis for the percentage of people that play a certain amount of turns, but there seems to be something fishy about them saying that there is only 1% of people that play pass 300 turns and that's a steam statistic. It's only 1% apparently, but the Total War games that are required for Steam only have 300 turns give or take. Rome 1 had over 500 I think, and I own bought the disk, not off steam. The point I'm trying to make is that while only 1% of people pass 300 turns may be true, that could only be the people that play Rome Total War on steam because Rome is the only one you CAN play past 300 turns, the population or percentage of people that play Rome Total War on steam is not anywhere as big as the people that play Empire, Napoleon and Shogun 2. Also many of my games such as Empire have been modded to have more turns because I like more turns. However there could be something I'm missing.

Even if CA counts RTW then if mostly if not all the vanilla version and not mods. My past experience with vanilla Rome was start 270 bc, Marian reform in 240bc abd conquer the world at 180bc. Whatever words or arguments used can't compete with hard statistical data and CA is correctly use the data collected from Steam to base their decision. Uless someone can come up with a different conclusion base data and statistics then whatever claims otherwise will fall on deaf ears.
 
"I disagree with the conclusion, so they did it wrong"

That's how I read the OP too.

They have obviously done far more analysis than just what was said in the "1%" quote, and I can guarantee you that what they have done is far, far, far more useful than anecdotal evidence that is being thrown around by people complaining on forums that haven't even played the game.

They said it can be modded. It's inconceivable to me how this is such a big issue. There will be mods with far more turns for you guys, there will be vanilla for people like me who think 300 is a good amount. If they had decided to put 600 turns in vanilla, I really doubt there would be a mod to reduce it to 300, because that's just the way the community is.

EVERYBODY WINS.
 
I dont understand why dont just mod the damn thing... its not that hard. jesus christ, I hope CA sticks with their decisions and goes ahead as planned I shudder at the though of a 300+ turn campaign.
 
I have no problem with 300 turns because playing past the end of the game has, to my knowledge, always been possible. Which means it doesn't matter, except as a passage of time for tech. 300 years of tech advancements. The fewer turns they have, the more development and variety the game provides without including massive waiting periods between them. (especially since R2 apperently has no time limit with campaign completion)

Other then that, I just want to know how seasons will be implemented. Because being the crazy person I am, i find something wrong with it being "1tpy" and varied seasons. It might be 1.25 years per turn to be more accurate. But again, I'm crazy and this somewhat bugs me.
 
I dont understand why dont just mod the damn thing... its not that hard. jesus christ, I hope CA sticks with their decisions and goes ahead as planned I shudder at the though of a 300+ turn campaign.



I really cant play 300+ turns. To play 300+ turns you have to actively try to not win. The most I have managed is 240 and by that time I was just deleting units so I could have 5 stacks of vet top of the line units.
 
Don't blame me for wanting to take my time and enjoy the game, I have heard valid points about why this 1 tpy could be a good idea, however non other than "Only 1% of the community on Steams plays past 300 turns." Which for all we know could be false.
 
Perhaps many people just buy the game for the multiplayer. Or they get bored. Or they build themselves an empire quite quickly and are just satisfied. Hope someone makes a mod to extend the game to two/four turns per year.
 
As much as I support the decision for game balanced to 300 turns and resulting 1 turn per year pace the statistics from Steam aren't very solid. I'm sure there are far more reasons for CA to develop and balance toward 300 turns but using statistics from Steam is a bit misleading for 2 major reasons I can think of easily.

1. most of the TW games on Steam are balanced to play less than 300 turns, usually quite a bit less. I rarely play Shogun 2 more than 80 turns and have 3/4 or more of tech tree done in that time so certainly within 120 (since usually control more research point producing buildings or have more generals the longer game lasts research goes even more quickly) the entire tech tree would be researched. Also within 80 turns usually 2-3 castles will be nearly fully upgraded (out of 20-40 controlled by that point so that does leave considerable buildings to upgrade if I wanted but Shogun 2 doesn't offer much benefit for that and actually with the food mechanic upgrading all castles would be maybe even counter productive). NTW is about same as Shogun 2 while I have played ETW campaigns longest of all recent TWs close to 200 turns I've never reached 300 because entire map was conquered before that. How many people play past conquering entire map (actually it might not be possible if all factions are eliminated but I only did that 1 time and can't remember).

2. How many people play short campaign vs long campaign? That is a Steam statistic I'd be curious to know. I almost always choose short myself because I prefer to set my own objectives anyway though I'll accomplish the short campaign along the way doing the long campaign might take me away from my personal objectives. That said- I hardly every have the campaign objective to conquer the entire map which is the only way I can envision taking 300 turns and since CA balances games for less than that amount which means move distances, income, techs, diplomacy modifiers, etc all make possible conquests in less time than that which means only very slow turtlers might reach 300 turns- even more is the way end campaign plays out where an Empire that is 20 regions might conquer 3x as rapidly as an Empire of 10 regions... so an Empire of 40 regions conquers 9x as fast as an Empire of 10 regions which means conquering entire map actually speeds up the closer you get. Most people have already fulfilled both short and long campaign objectives and their own personal objectives long before 300 turns because CA balanced previous games to less than 300 turns.

That said there are many other good reasons I can think of that outweight importance of Steam statistics to have it 300 turns.

1. 117 factions. Even if 30 of those factions are eliminated in the first 10 turns if CA has seriously made more emergent factions, rebellions, etc then each faction will take some time to process. Even if most factions are less than 2 seconds to process (not something I've ever experienced in TW game) that is nearly 2 minutes of wait per turn. 150 turns x 2 minutes = 5 hours of just waiting for turn to process. 300 turns would take around 10 hours of just waiting not including actual time to make campaign map moves and fight battles. Steam probably has some average turn length time statistics but I'd guess average is at least 20 minutes if not longer. So about 110 hours to reach 300 turns of which 9% is just waiting. Considering that the main argument for more than 300 turns is because people want to be doing more that means more content CA has to figure out how to add and balance to extend the value of that play time. Otherwise making 600 turns is just an empty goal if only 300 turns worth of play is doubled. Few games give more than 40 hours of content these days so if even with goal of balancing for 300 turns- that is balanced on easier difficulties which CA also said most players use. (that really surprised me- as a point of pride I rarely can stand to play less than the most difficult setting, I thought more players would be at least not going below normal/average setting). So many veteran players can probably complete campaign on average 150 turns or even less for easier factions. The veteran turtlers will be having to play so slowly to wait 150 extra turns but maybe they will have fun doing it, vast majority will not.

2. Action vs waiting... to balance game for say 600 turns to at least give 2 turns per year means travel distances are probably halved along with research times, etc. If CA doubles the research tree potential that is bigger budget and more balancing. If CA merely doubles the time each tech takes to research there begins to creep in alot of empty time. Empty time is when players start to think the game is a bit boring and maybe they should be playing something else. Some players can amuse themselves pretending to be god or Alexander or something but few can do that for 500 turns in a row at or 15-20 hours worth of waiting for turns to process. I actually believe CA is testing the waters a bit to make such long amount of turns with content balanced towards that. Rome 1 might have had 500+ turns but by turn 200 everything that could be done was done aside from turning map your faction color and maxing city populations. CA is saying that at 200 turns most people will still have stuff left to accomplish- research, politics, intrigues, rival faction alliance blocs or emergent factions and rebellions, possibly even new unit tiers not unlocked (as opposed to unit hero as in Shogun 2, in R2 it might be imperial armies not even used if Rome was Republic first 150 turns).

3. GAME DOES NOT END AT 300 turns. If you want to take 600 turns to accomplish your goals you are able to. There will just be many turns of empty time that CA doesn't want to force majority of players to sit through and dream of better game design. So in reality CA is offering to most of the turtlers what they are asking for. Only real sacrifice is in general's life expectancy but if CA has made generals develop 3 times faster generals will still become epic- it just means players will have to develop more epic generals per campaign. Which sounds more interesting and fun to me. What happens at turn 100 in a 1200 turn campaign (4 turns per year) when your general is maxed out in epicness? (aside form a very few random traits) You get to look forward to another 100 turns with that general not advancing much or doing anything interesting except slogging through battles. Oh- but CA could slow down generals development... sure- if you don't mind general gaining some small new trait/skill only every 12-16 turns. Hell, most people would probably just get in the habit of hitting end turn and skip right past some content without even realizing.

4. Mechanics... what does 4 seasons add to mechanics? Possibly winter attrition but how authentic is that? Only if army is out of supply or in poor location but then why does it only happen in winter? Army can be out of supply or in bad position any time of year. How much of the campaign map is going to be Russia if it was even as cold in Roman era? Campaign map visually changes, income could change, currents/distance navies travel could change. There are quite a few things CA could do... but require changing the underlying engine and mechanics more which goes back to budget and franchise. Every time CA adds something they risk screwing up a good thing, adding enough new things to keep people occupied for 1200 turns is asking for poorly tested buggy crap (the beta testers would be taking significantly longer to test things and more potential to miss something which either delays release of game and adds costs as well gives lower review scores and these forums filled with rants about bugs instead of number of turns). The hard place for CA is that if they don't change some things every release the franchise grows stale, especially for me the battles are at risk of that. Still CA has to take time and be careful what they add... the list of games which added too much and changed core mechanics alot and lost support is alot longer than games which stuck to a core philosophy though there are only few franchises that even got close to TW length of success. Civilization is about the longest running I can think of, Starcraft, AoE, Final Fantasy, Mario, FIFA, Madden, Ghost Recon, Tomb Raiders, etc there are a few but more often we get Duke Nukem or Star Trek, Wing Commander, well... just about anything with at least 3 titles that never reached a 4th.
 
These statistics and other recent ideas that CA has shown are ridicule .

1 turn per year

No natural barriers

40 years for a general and other characters

and God knows many other crazy things CA hasn't shown yet .

Apart from crossing rivers that sounds to be logical but 1 turn per year is still a question in my mind .

I've posted this idea 20 times that , Instead of a long movement , development and mastery of arts in 1 turn per year we can have all of them in 2 turns per year ( it means CA divides whatever we can do in 1 tern per year into 2 turns per year ) . in this case player can do more with the same movement and time and there wouldn't be any problem with balance .

As an example , If you have 2 close provinces , In 1 turn per year you can only send troops there while the movement ( distance between provinces ) might be less than 50% of your limitation in movement per year and it means a waste but if you have 2 turns per year with the same movement that 1 turn per year has then you'll be able to use the capacity as much as possible .

So , whats wrong with this idea ? and why CA fanboys can't use 1% of their brain to think instead of supporting blindly ?


 
Last edited:
I I did a survey of every game forum in the forums and those that participated showed that they play less than 150 turns per game on average.
THe qeustion of course is why they would end up plaing less than 150. I play less than 150 on average because I get bored of the game, it IS after all the same setup every time. The fact you do it with different factions makes the likelihood of playing longer (or shorter) entirely dependent on two things- whether the factions bring a unique experience to warrant playing further, or the game itself. If neither occurs (Shogun2) then the odds of wanting to play more than 150 turns on average is pretty low.

Which isn't a very good reason to just make it 300 years via 300 turns.

Come no, who would want t play more than 150 turns average in a campaign if you KNEW there would be more, variations of content? The answer is everyone. But since there isn't, they won't. Ironically the data CA is inferring only serves to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.
 
Not sure which side I stand on. Thank god I mainly care about multiplayer :D
 
THe qeustion of course is why they would end up plaing less than 150. I play less than 150 on average because I get bored of the game, it IS after all the same setup every time. The fact you do it with different factions makes the likelihood of playing longer (or shorter) entirely dependent on two things- whether the factions bring a unique experience to warrant playing further, or the game itself. If neither occurs (Shogun2) then the odds of wanting to play more than 150 turns on average is pretty low.

Which isn't a very good reason to just make it 300 years via 300 turns.

Come no, who would want t play more than 150 turns average in a campaign if you KNEW there would be more, variations of content? The answer is everyone. But since there isn't, they won't. Ironically the data CA is inferring only serves to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

If you play the game on hard or very hard level patiently then you'll play till the end .

Whenever I played shogun 2 on hard level patiently I played for around 140 - 150 turns . You know , If you want to play the game to end a campaign in 1 or 2 days then it becomes boring and you don't spend much time on battles and any other stuff that you can do when you play patiently .

I played shogun 2 for several hundred hours , whenever I played on normal difficulty the game was boring after 50 turns as I didn't need to fight the battles and computer did everything for me but i hard level every single battle is important and needs patient and that's why I played them completely .
 
Last edited:
I think that CA's statistics is valid. But the question is: what this statistics means?

Imho it doesn't mean that only 1% of people want to play more than 200-300 turns. This statistics just illustrate the fact that current TW is designed for 300 turns only. With current gameplay and victory conditions you can win game within these 200-300 turns. And there are many people who stop playing when their faction become too strong and game become too boring to continue. In other words this stats shows that current TW worth only 300 or so turns to play. So there's no wonder that most of people don't play beyond these 300 turns - there's just no conditions for it.
 
I've never actually played a full campaign..

Care to know why? Cause for every single total war game I've played (Rome-Shogun 2) I knew post-turn 50, I was going to win. In fact, I probably knew subconsciously since turn 1 I was going to win. The campaign game itself, during turn 25, and during turn 100, holds almost no differences to each other except to say I've managed to past the mile stone that instead of me recruiting the 2 attack and 1 defense peasant, I can now make a 4 attack and 6 defense heavy infantry who can use the phalanx formation, something of which the AI is completely oblivious of in how to avoid and in how to use.

So it doesn't matter if they make the campaign 100 turns or 1000 turns, because that isn't the actual issue. It's the repetitiveness in it all of the game's tendency to play the exact same way, all the time, every time, throughout it's 200-300 turn span and me knowing past a certain point, a point that should only come when the game is almost at it's end, that unless I purposely try to lose, I will win.

So CA can shove their statistics up their ass because all it tells me is that they can't make a game fun enough for people to want to play past 150 turns.
 
I rarely play Shogun 2 more than 80 turns and have 3/4 or more of tech tree done in that time so certainly within 120 (since usually control more research point producing buildings or have more generals the longer game lasts research goes even more quickly) the entire tech tree would be researched.

I would like to see that, in my current Ikko-ikki campaign I'm 160 turns in and might have 40-50% of the tech tree researched and that is with 3 libraries, temples in every city, and monks with the chi research perks. Do you have any screen shots? I try to get through the tech tree asap so I hit the chi side first so I can upgrade my libraries. It should take 201 turns (no bonus) just to get through the chi side and about 400 for the entire tree. So even if you are racing through the tech tree with +100% research bonuses it will take more than 200 turns to research the entire tech tree.
 
I would like to see that, in my current Ikko-ikki campaign I'm 160 turns in and might have 40-50% of the tech tree researched and that is with 3 libraries, temples in every city, and monks with the chi research perks. Do you have any screen shots? I try to get through the tech tree asap so I hit the chi side first so I can upgrade my libraries. It should take 201 turns (no bonus) just to get through the chi side and about 400 for the entire tree. So even if you are racing through the tech tree with +100% research bonuses it will take more than 200 turns to research the entire tech tree.

If you research just the shorter techs first you can get pretty dang close to 3/4 in the 80s. Is there a screen that shows turn number and how many techs are researched? I loaded up a game as Hojo really quick but the Chi screen just shows techs, not turn number. I do know short campaign speeds up research though so if you play long campaign usually as it sounds it might take 200 turns. Anyway as Hojo on turn 87 it shows 25 out of 42 techs and between 139% and 154% research rates. Uesugi and Shimazu are the only other current campaigns I have saves anywhere close to 80. Uesugi is 23 techs at 91 and Shimazu is only 19 at 78 turns. I haven't worried about optimizing research to the max recently but I did do campaigns where I focused on getting libraries early and poetry on all generals, etc and did very close to 75% in # of techs out of 42 researched or 31 techs. However the remaining 11 techs would take an average of 10 turns each so 110 + 80 = 200 turns. I am not sure what the mathematically maximum is because it depends on rate of expansion, number of generals and skills, library upgrades etc but if you do the math you should be able to get 29 or 30 techs while in 80s which is pretty close to 3/4. Anyway the point was to say it is possible in far less than 300 turns because that is what CA balanced it towards.
 
THe qeustion of course is why they would end up plaing less than 150. I play less than 150 on average because I get bored of the game, it IS after all the same setup every time. The fact you do it with different factions makes the likelihood of playing longer (or shorter) entirely dependent on two things- whether the factions bring a unique experience to warrant playing further, or the game itself. If neither occurs (Shogun2) then the odds of wanting to play more than 150 turns on average is pretty low.

Which isn't a very good reason to just make it 300 years via 300 turns.

Come no, who would want t play more than 150 turns average in a campaign if you KNEW there would be more, variations of content? The answer is everyone. But since there isn't, they won't. Ironically the data CA is inferring only serves to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

the problem is that there are many events tied into the date, such as new technologies becoming available, military reforms and emergent factions or historical rebellions.
these are all interesting and if we cut down the year per turn by the time I experience it has become boring because I needed to wait an extremely long time to reach it however if I want to keep playing I would just need to continue or mod the game to set the timer to 2/4/6/12 turns per year.

either way it is easy to mod and it is easy to live with even if you dont.
so again, its not a big deal as people keep making it out to be.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Site News

Thread Statistics

Created
Semper_Fidelis,
Last reply from
StealthFox,
Replies
214
Views
15,531

Site Polls

  • Axis & Allies

  • Battleship

  • Checkers

  • Chess

  • Clue

  • Go

  • Monopoly

  • Risk

  • Stratego

  • Other


Results are only viewable after voting.
Back
Top Bottom