Belarus and Lukashenko

[★Bandiera Rossa☭]

What ever happened to the "Union State"? Do Belarus and Russia still want to integrate?

 

[Nikitn]

I've visited Belarus, Russia and Ukraine. If you don't believe numbers, believe me . Belarus is much better place to live than Ukraine. And it looks better than Russian province (I don't say about Moscow, because it is completly different world).

edited:
I am from Poland. I am interested in 16-18th history. Therefore, during my travels, I visit historical places. Not these ones from touristical folders, but places important from hictorical point of view. Below are some pictures from Belarus, Russia and Ukraine. I have taken them not because I like a folklor, but because they are in historical places. Look at these pictures. Belarus really is not the worst place. Russian province looks much worse.

Belarus:
1. Polonka village. There was the battle in 1660 View attachment 93939 View attachment 93940
2. Ugly village. There was the battle of Basia river in 1660. View attachment 93941View attachment 93942
3. Szklow village. There was the battle in 1654.View attachment 93943

Ukraine:
1. some village close to the Khotyn castle (there were several battles in 16-18th) View attachment 93944
2. Podkamien. Close to this place was the battle in 1709. View attachment 93945

Russia:
1. Klushino. 8 km from this village was the battle in 1610 View attachment 93946
Here, in this house, was born Yuri Gagarin (today it is museum) View attachment 93947
2. Kiwerowa Horka village. Here was signed Polish-Russian truce in 1582 View attachment 93948

Pictures are pretty useless. You could find villages like these all over Eastern Europe, including in Poland. Also those houses look much better from the inside then the outside. Most of them have TV's, heating, radio running water toilets et cetra.

Look at statistics. Belarus is without a doubt a much better place 2 live in than Ukraine. Belarus is comparable 2 Russia actually (and Russia and Belarus are getting more and more integrated).

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Instead of calling other 'biased' or 'nationalist' (still waiting for you to prove), you should actually get around and see how things look like.

I actually know how Russia looks like. Do you?

 

[Nikitn]

@ radoslaw sikora: it is like...posting rare photos from 1930s Russia and people's reaction is -so those photos are from WW2 under nazi occupation, right?

Estonia is, in general, even worse.

and back to topic: as long as Lukachenka had resources for various social services, ppl liked him. but due to crisis and rising gas prices picture is not so rousy anymore.

Lukaschenko was liked because he was competent.

For example, Belarus has not suffered such a huge collapse like Russia. Belarus is right now a prosperous state.

Estonia was a poor backwater dump b4 the EU, and it is starting 2 become a dumb once again due 2 incompetent politicians, corruption and so on. Economy is collapsing, and therefore people do not like the Estonian ultra-nationalist leaders

and politically, there are tensions between lukaschenka and putin. But Lukachenka keeps Russia in hostage in the similar way as North Korea keeps China: in both cases whatever NK/Belarussia do, neither China nor Russia can't punish their... allies... severely. Because of in spite of all difficulties Kremlin does not want to see current regime in belarussia collapsing and that is the case with china as well.

Belarus and Russia are getting more and more integrated, like the air defence system in Belarus is controlled by Russian military. In 30 years I think Belarus and Russia would be 1 country.

What ever happened to the "Union State"? Do Belarus and Russia still want to integrate?

They are trying 2 merge Russian army with Belorussian.

You mean this house?View attachment 94041
These are not holes. These black areas are a tar paper.
Moreover, look at these wood close to the house and look at grass. Somebody lives here.

I have seen many abandoned buildings in Russia, but they are realy devasteted. Like this building at the picture below (it's also in Klushino).
View attachment 94044

OK:

1. Why do you take pictures of houses like those? Maybe you should visit mighty rich Polish countryside, and take a few pictures?
2. Anyway I have serious doubts that house in particular is inhabited. I've seen houses like those abandoned.

I don't think so. Lukashenko affraids Russia too much. He is already the most important person in Belarus. He would be only a second rate politician in united Belarus-Russia.
There were some attempts to unify both countries in the past, but they failed. By now even the customs union is delayed.

Ignorance. Though yes Lukaschenko wants 2 keep power

 

[Radosław Sikora]

What ever happened to the "Union State"? Do Belarus and Russia still want to integrate?

AFAIK, Belarus delayed ratification of customs union with Russia. It should be ratificated until the end of June. But, by now, it is waiting for ... something.

BTW, the new price of Russian gas is not the only one thing, which disturbs Lukashenko. Russia seems to decide to stop subsidize Belarusian economy. Since the begining of 2010 Russia takes a customs duty from some part of the oil exported to Belarus. Only the oil, which supply Belarusian own need is duty-free. The rest oil (it is reexported by Belarus) is not duty-free anymore. It might mean about 10% lower income for Belarusian budget in this year.

What does Russia want to attain? Is it only a desperate move to increase the income of Russian budget? Gazprom is in trouble right now and Russia didn't avoid recession in 2009.
Or is it a try to press Belarus? I wouldn't be surprised if Belarus will decide to ratificate a customs union with Russia for cheaper gas and duty-free oil.

 

[Nikitn]

Russian army and Belarus army are getting more and more integrated... Despite what Lukaschenko says, things look positive in this issue

 

[Radosław Sikora]

1. Why do you take pictures of houses like those?

Because they are in historical places. I have written about it already.
I am not the lover of a folklore. And I don't care too much about Russian villages.

Maybe you should visit mighty rich Polish countryside, and take a few pictures?

Do you want some pictures of Polish villages? Look below. It is from the place (Rokitki village), where were at least 3 battles (in 1577, in 1627 and in early 19th c).
View attachment 94140 View attachment 94141 View attachment 94143

 

[Nikitn]

you are so funny it is unbelievable.

You take pictures from rich Polish suburban areas, and compare them 2 the VERY WORST areas of a Russian suburb/village?

ya I've been in Polish countryside. You can find places just as bad as those you took pictures of (obviously the worst u could fine) in Russia.

Polish and Russian GDP PPP per capita is similar.

Average Polish villages http://cgi.rootsweb.com/~pollubel/rural/cottage.htm

Ultra modern and rich, as you see.

 

[intel]

I actually know how Russia looks like.

And then accuse Radoslaw of bias? I don't think so. If you think that making photos of how actually russian countryside looks like (including such pictures) is biased, then it only speaks what you know about Russia.

Do you?

Yes I do. I've been to Russia, including Petersburg and Kaliningrad Oblast.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

And then accuse Radoslaw of bias? I don't think so. If you think that making photos of how actually russian countryside looks like (including such pictures) is biased, then it only speaks what you know about Russia.

So I take pictures of some "gangsta" neighborhood in US and than take pictures of some rich neighborhood in Zimbabwe. According to your logic, Zimbabwe > US. Right?

 

[intel]

So I take pictures of some "gangsta" neighborhood in US and than take pictures of some rich neighborhood in Zimbabwe. According to your logic, Zimbabwe > US. Right?

Is it a fake picture? Is it some kind of manipulation from Radoslaw's side to show Russia in negative light? No. It's you who made all the uneccesary fuss about how dissapointed and hurt you are because Radoslaw made a photo of an actual russian and belarussian villages, and expressed his opinion based on numerous visits he made to the Belarus, Ukraine and Russia. I think that Radoslaw with all his experience is much more in position to talk about the matter.


Back to the Bealrus though.

Radoslaw, it's not that Russia is stopping economical support of Belarus. It's quite contrary anyway. You may remember that recently Russian budget included dozens of billions of RUB for aiding Belarus. That was indeed very much, especially in times of crisis.

 

[Viking Prince]

Two brief reminders:

1. Posts do not lie. Claiming that the facts are incorrect is ok. Claiming the post lies is implying the member is a liar -- which would be a insult since you cannot know the member knows the fact stated to be false.
2. Stating that a member is posting stupidity is also not within the rules. Quote the post and explain why you disagree with the post.

Oh -- and I just wanted to do this thread warning with the new awesome moderation color.

Viking Prince

 

[Viking Prince]

We are going to make yet another attempt at staying on topic. This time it is more serious. Warnings will be issued.

The thread topic is:

So, why is Lukashenko Ruling Belarus communist-style with an iron fist?

I will not not list all of the ways this can be taken off topic. It is sufficient to suggest that for a political discussion in the abstract the undocumented pictures of Polish villages, Russian infant mortality rates, accusations of trolling, etc. are and will remain off topic to this discussion.


Some recent posts may be edited or deleted. If there is a desire to split any of this off into another thread -- please make your requests.


If you cannot remain on topic, I would advise not posting in this thread.

 

[The Noble Lord]

People liked Lukashenko in the early 1990s because he promised law and order, stability and tiny growth prosperity and above all because he promised not to have the gangsters, oligarchs, and chaos that is so much identifiable with Russia of the 1990s. And people genuinely liked that, who wouldn't. He kept the Belarus pretty much like under the USSR times, except it was independent and more local (his) iron hand rule. Majority of the people knew that changes and transformation into democracy would make them experience Russia, Ukraine, other Eastern-European countries, etc.
The problem came about later, he became a dictator and would tolerate no opposition. And he is still in power. So we have to ask ourselves this question: if we were in Belarus during those turbulent times would we like somebody who at least promises to keep the chaos and problems of post-Communism away?? I am positive that majority of would've voted for that person which was Lukashenko!

 

[Mightypeon]

I do not see Lukashenko as having an "Iron fist". It does not appear to be more autocratic than lets say East Germany, (as I said, punishment for slapping a state attorney=a fine, that is not what happens in dictatorships).

 

[4th Regiment]

Belarus was doing way MUCH better than other USSR republics (if you do not believe , CIA fact book do not lie about Luka...just compare important factors there). That is everything what is important for statesmen.
Besides that, I do not care if he is bold, ugly, have devil's horns and tale…

 

[The Noble Lord]

I do not see Lukashenko as having an "Iron fist". It does not appear to be more autocratic than lets say East Germany, (as I said, punishment for slapping a state attorney=a fine, that is not what happens in dictatorships).

I am not using British or American definition of a dictator believe me, I am using the judgment that comes from the experience of analyzing dictators and autocrats from all over the world and from the time-frame that covers at least 305 years. And by all accounts foreign and domestic, Lukashenko is dictator and uses tough and draconian means to preserve his power, in some instances he is very soft while in others he is rough as rusted nails. His iron fist may be different from the GDR in its heyday or Ceausescu's dictatorship in Romania but it is a dictatorship nevertheless!