Drugs

Drugs

Punish for the act which they commit while intoxicated, not actually taking the drug

Then you also have to live with the fact that you might have been able to prevent an innocent persons death *shrugs*

I've gotten drunk off my ass numerous time before and yet have never dared to drive drunk or even buzzed.

That doesn't change the fact that many people do drink and drive and that most violence is alcohol-related.

But how easy is it to get served for alcohol? You just have to remotely look 18 and they will give it to you, often without even asking for ID

I always get carded :laughter:

Well if you are in your own home, then its legal to give your kids alcohol

hmm? I think you are wrong about that one... or maybe it's that way where you live (you are english afterall) ;)
 
you do realize that Hallucinogenics have caused people to completely freak out don't you? Freak out as in jumping out of buildings because they think they can fly, carving themselves up because bugs are crawling out of their skin, murdering their children or blinding them...yea the list goes on.
Yeah, the list of very rare incidents in the 60 or so years of LSD history which have been blown out of proportion and exploited by anti-LSD propaganda.

If you have ever taken hallucinogenics you would know its nothing like that
 
you do realize that Hallucinogenics have caused people to completely freak out don't you? Freak out as in jumping out of buildings because they think they can fly, carving themselves up because bugs are crawling out of their skin, murdering their children or blinding them...yea the list goes on.

I don't think these has ever been a proven case, it's an urban myth. Bring a real example of a psychedelic causing people to do those things.
 
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Legalizing drugs will win the war in Afghanistan and probably stop the current violence in Mexico. I wouldn't guarantee that either of these countries will be better off afterwards though (in fact, I'd say they'd probably have starvation for a while before they can find a new source of income).

Also, one of the key problems obstructing drug legalization is the fact that there's already a huge industry build upon this. I'm pretty sure the DEA gets close to, if not over, a billion dollars a year. That's a lot of people being laid off and someone not getting that money (but taxpayers keeping theirs).
 
you do realize that Hallucinogenics have caused people to completely freak out don't you? Freak out as in jumping out of buildings because they think they can fly, carving themselves up because bugs are crawling out of their skin, murdering their children or blinding them...yea the list goes on.
 
Its going to be very interesting to see what happens in november when california votes on marijuana legalization for all residents above 21. And its likely to pass i think support was hovering around 57% support last time i checked and there are massive grass roots campaigning out there to turn out pro legalization voters in november.

If it goes through and they gain money from taxing all the weed sold in california other states may lean towards legalizing. I know my state of mass has a proposal in the state legislature to legalize weed and tax it as well.
 
Its going to be very interesting to see what happens in november when california votes on marijuana legalization for all residents above 21. And its likely to pass i think support was hovering around 57% support last time i checked and there are massive grass roots campaigning out there to turn out pro legalization voters in november.

Seriously? Well this is great news. Maybe other states will follow if it passes.
 
Seriously? Well this is great news. Maybe other states will follow if it passes.

yep and here is the lastest update

December 15, 2009 11:18 AM Marijuana Legalization Could be put to California Voters

Posted by Brian Montopoli
image5153148x.jpg
(CBS/AP)​

Advocates for legalizing and taxing marijuana in California say they have gathered enough signatures to put the issue to voters.

A message on the Web site of the Tax and Regulate Initiative says advocates have the signatures to get the question of giving local governments the authority to legalize and tax marijuana onto the 2010 ballot.

Richard Lee, the primary backer of the effort, tells the San Francisco Chronicle that more than 680,000 signatures have been gathered, far more than the necessary 433,971. It reportedly cost $1 million to gather the signatures over two months, and the drive was overseen by a professional firm.

Lee is the owner of Oakland's Oaksterdam University and Coffeeshop Blue Sky, a pair of marijuana-related businesses. His campaign is planning to submit the signatures for verification to the California Secretary of State next month, with the aim of seeing the issue on the ballot next November.

A Gallup poll in October found that 44 percent of Americans support marijuana legalization, and a CBS News poll in July put that figure at 41 percent. Among Californians, according to a recent Field Poll, support for legalization stands at 56 percent.

Advocates for legalizing marijuana in California argue that doing so – and taxing the drug – will generate much-needed revenue for the cash-strapped state, potentially in excess of $1 billion per year. The state is now facing a $22 billion budget deficit. Advocates also say that legalizing the drug will help put an end to what they consider the unnecessary arrest of hundreds of thousands of non-violent marijuana users nationwide each year.

President Obama, who has been asked about the issue more than once, says he believes marijuana legalization is not "a good strategy to grow our economy."

According to the Associated Press, the ballot proposal in California would legalize possession of marijuana up to one ounce for Californians age 21 and older. State residents could also cultivate small marijuana gardens, and local governments would decide whether or not to allow sales of the drug in their area.

It also reportedly calls for increased penalties for giving marijuana to a minor and prohibits smoking it in public or possessing it on school grounds.

California already allows medical marijuana use.

and here is the link to the other article from the people running the pro legalization campaign

http://www.mapinc.org/norml/v10/n013/a08.htm the article was too long to post
 
I'm not against legalizing, but there is a cost in human life if it is due to ready and cheap availability leading to more addictions, I can't see that NOT happening.

Not trying to open fire on you here Phier, but there is a human cost already. Mexican murder and kidnap rates are disturbingly high. Central American governments cannot compete with the influence of the cartels. The human cost throughout South American pales in comparison to what we experience here. Throw in the Middle East and Southeast Asia and the cost benefit analysis goes out the window.

The legalization of drugs would end decades of horrible policy and curb the escalating police state. I'm tired of doors being kicked in because of the information of some "informant." Not only that, our courts and jails are becoming oppressively clogged with drug offenders while those responsible for real crime await trial or receive minimal sentences due to overcrowding.

I think I posted somewhere that the cost of the drug war is somewhere around $60 billion a year. Of course, this doesn't factor in military involvement or loss of liberty. Add up the toll from other countries worldwide and the number becomes frightening.

It's time to stop legislating against bad behavior. If someone wants to destroy their body with drugs that is their choice. I don't know the statistics on what it costs the medical system, but I'd be willing to compare those numbers to the costs of drunk driving accidents nation wide. It would be an interesting comparison.

In either case, the drug war will not end because it has resulted in expansive government power. The blue hairs that run the country want to impress their morality on everyone. That is why drugs are bad, homosexuals are bad, smoking is bad, etc etc. Until a social revolution sweeps through our assemblies, nothing will ever change. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. 30 years of drug violence have put down a lot of asphalt.
 
Nietzsche is dead on (for a change).

Such drugs shall perpetually remain illegal, so long as somebody in power benefits from it...so-called morality and saving lives has absolutely no relevance to the actual debate.
 
Yeah, the list of very rare incidents in the 60 or so years of LSD history which have been blown out of proportion and exploited by anti-LSD propaganda.

If you have ever taken hallucinogenics you would know its nothing like that

The American rapper Big Lurch was accused of murdering an acquaintance and eating her lungs while on PCP.

In April 2009, 34-year-old Angel Vidal Mendoza Sr. bit out his 4-year-old son's eye, and severely damaged the other, while on PCP, before attempting to chop off his own legs with an axe.

In December 2009, A 23 year old Indian girl, Meha Bahuguna allegedly died after consuming an overdose of PCP at Sunburn a music festival held at Goa

some cop stories

Back in 2000 I got a call for a naked man in the middle of 15th and Pennsylvania Ave SE. Anybody who knows this intersection knows that its just before going over the Sousa bridge which will then take you to I295/BW Parkway or into Maryland via Penn Ave. Anyway Im the first unit there and I see this 6'3, 120 skinny dude standing in the middle of the intersection, greasing himself down with vaseline andpicking the "imaginary" spidders off his body. I immediately asked for assistance and 3 more units arrived. It was a looooooooooong day.......

1. The vaseline makes it virtually impossible to hold on to a limb, especially in the 95+ degree heat, mixed with sweat= feet and *** everywhere.

2. He was high on PCP, and for him to be a skinny dude he was EXTREMELY strong and resistant to all sorts of... "pain". We fought with that fool what seemed like an eternity was actually 5 minutes. Because he was soooo slippery, the only thing we could really do was just hold on to him till the wagon got there. Hell, a passing firetruck even hosed us all down with some water from the firetruck to try and get some of the vaseline off of all of us. Didnt work but it was extremely hot and humid that day. We all recieved some bumps and bruises but nothing to major. The look on all the citizens faces while we were fighting this guy was priceless. Imagine sitting in your car and some greasy butt cheeks gets slammed up against the drivers side window? Horror story and funny as hell all at the same time...

Officer stated they were dispatched to a domestic, female called complaining hubby (or boyfriend i dont remember) is high on drugs and throwing things around the house.

Officer arrives on scene, female is outside waiting on Police. "Help he is still inside, he is crazy, he is throwing furniture around, I think he has a knife." Well that "think" became a "know." Male answers door after he takes knife to stomach and guts himself. When I say guts, responding officers stated his intestines and all were dangling out of his stomach because he cut himself from one side to the other and as he is walking he is pulling things out. I forgot if they ever went hands on or if he bled out first. I just kind of stopped listening and was in amazment when I heard he was pulling guts out of his stomach.

First murder case I ever worked on, a PCP dealer sold a $7 hit to a guy in a bar. The customer gave him a ten dollar bill and the dealer told him he would go get his change. He should have got it right away, because about ten minutes into his PCP trip, the customer walked over, and in full view of about fifty witnesses, stabbed the dealer in the heart, and said, "What happened to my $3 in change?"

Another officer and I had to fight one. The bad guy was naked and sweating profusely in the hot, July, Southeast Texas sun. We couldn't get a good grip on him. Pepper spray didn't work (as it usually won't on PCP subjects). We wrestled and chased him over a two block area. We were bruised, scratched and pretty well spent before help arrived. He got banged up pretty good too, but none of us required any hospitalization.

We had another one that happened at night. It took seven officers to get the guy hancuffed. It was in front of a night club with a black patrons. Once we had finished cuffing him and getting him secured in a car, we then had to deal with a very angry crowd. Everybody was screaming, "You didn't have to beat him like that", or "You didn't have to be so rough with him". Nobody in the crowd complained that the guy had broken car windows with his bare hands, or that he had hit a couple of female patrons for no reason.

In 1978 my partner and I stopped a car and the driver got out and threw a small bottle of what turned out to be PCP. He was a big dude about 6' 250. When we went to arrest him the fight was on, both of us took out our PR24 batons and began to wail on the suspects body. It didn't faze him at all. I hit him at least 50 times when my baton broke in half and I had to resort to my Kel lite flashlight. We finally were able to knock him down and but were unable to get his hands behind his back, he kept laughing at us saying you cops are weaklings. (both of us were over 6' and weighed about 200).

I hit the suspect about 20 times with my flashlight, my partner had hit him well over 50 times also. He finally gave up and we were able to handcuff him and drag his butt to our radio car..

Upon his arrival at the hospital we learned that we had broken both of his arms and wrist, both collar bones were broken as was his jaw. We learned the next day from the jail wards that he was black and blue from top to bottom.

We had a ride along observer that night that was a judge in our local court and he radioed for assistance for us but we were up in the San Gabriel mountains with the nearest unit over 20 minutes away. The judge later commended us to our Captain saying that he would have shot the suspect.

That was without a doubt the scariest fight I was ever in and couldn't believe that someone could be hit well over 100 times with batons/flashlights and not feel anything.

The case was filed, suspect convicted and sent to prison and we were never doubted about our use of force.

we had a guy who was running in the streets naked.upon our arrival this dude ripped his balls off and threw it at us!! i was like wtf! he tried going for the hot dog next but we took him down.. im sure he was feeling it the next day
 
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The American rapper Big Lurch was accused of murdering an acquaintance and eating her lungs while on PCP.

In April 2009, 34-year-old Angel Vidal Mendoza Sr. bit out his 4-year-old son's eye, and severely damaged the other, while on PCP, before attempting to chop off his own legs with an axe.

In December 2009, A 23 year old Indian girl, Meha Bahuguna allegedly died after consuming an overdose of PCP at Sunburn a music festival held at Goa

some cop stories

PCP is different to LSD.
 
The American rapper Big Lurch was accused of murdering an acquaintance and eating her lungs while on PCP.

In April 2009, 34-year-old Angel Vidal Mendoza Sr. bit out his 4-year-old son's eye, and severely damaged the other, while on PCP, before attempting to chop off his own legs with an axe.

In December 2009, A 23 year old Indian girl, Meha Bahuguna allegedly died after consuming an overdose of PCP at Sunburn a music festival held at Goa

some cop stories

PCP is a dissociative. Although it can be classified as a hallucinogen, I'm pretty sure he meant psychedelics like LSD, mushrooms, mescaline etc.
 
I think we (USA perspective) would have to have numerous other nations unanimously have positive results for legalization to be more than a dismissed blip on the political radar. Also, as other have pointed out, it would take a lot to dethrone those who stand to benefit from the "war on drugs."
 
The war on drugs is a total failure. You cannot legislate morality. You would think that Prohibition would have taught that lesson. I think a large number of presently illegal drugs should be legal. I think that people who chose to use drugs chose to deal with the effects that drugs have on their lives and the lives of their families and friends. The present policy towards drug use targets actual possession of drugs and totally fails to address the issue of the USE of drugs. (DARE is such a great program :p ) The original prohibition of marijuana was brought about by synthetic rope manufacturers trying to find a realistic way to get rid of the competition that hemp provided, and they succeeded by dumping money into political coffers. DoW supposodly even paid for the propaganda movie "Reefer Madness"
Once politicians got wind that "hard working Americans" needed someone "to look out for the future of the children", it was an easy sell.
 
I haven't found any statistics crime in the Netherlands but I have found this BBC article includes this statement
Research suggests that between half and two-thirds of all crime in the UK is drug-related.
it doesn't mention the source of this research but it is a BBC report.
When I think of legalising drugs I think of how prescribing heroin to addicts could help them and I think this article supports the argument nicely.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8255418.stm
A scheme in which heroin is given to addicts in supervised clinics has led to big reductions in the use of street drugs and crime, the BBC has learned.
More than 100 users took part in the pilot - part funded by the government - in London, Brighton and Darlington.
They either injected heroin or received the drug's substitute methadone.
Those given heroin responded best and an independent panel which monitored the scheme over six months is advising ministers to set up further trials.
About three-quarters of those given heroin were said to have "substantially" reduced their use of street drugs.
Research suggests that between half and two-thirds of all crime in the UK is drug-related.
The Home Office says on its website that about three-quarters of crack and heroin users claim they commit crime to feed their habits.
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PILOT SCHEME FINDINGS
Three-quarters reduced use of street heroin
Offences down from 1,731 in 30 days to 547 in six months
Spending on drugs down from £300 to £50 a week

Figures for group given heroin
Professor John Strang, who led the project, said the results were "very positive" because the scheme had helped cut crime and avoid "expensive" prison sentences.
Professor Strang, who is based at the National Addiction Centre, part of King's Health Partners, said the individuals on the programme were among those who had been the hardest to treat.
"It's as if each of them is an oil tanker heading for disaster and so the purpose of this trial is to see: 'Can you turn them around? Is it possible to avert disaster?'
"And the surprising finding - which is good for the individuals and good for society as well - is that you can," he said.
The Randomised Injecting Opioid Treatment Trial (RIOTT) programme - which is funded by a number of agencies, including the Department of Health - began in 2005.
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FROM THE TODAY PROGRAMME



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More from Today programme

It involved 127 chronic heroin addicts for whom conventional types of treatment had failed.
Many of the addicts were also using other substances, including crack cocaine.
During the trials, a third of addicts were given the heroin substitute methadone orally and another third injected methadone under supervision.
The remainder, observed by nurses, injected themselves with diamorphine - unadulterated heroin - imported from Switzerland.
National roll-out?
Those on the programme were also given psychological support and help with their housing and social needs.
The results showed that addicts in all three groups cut the amount of heroin they obtained illicitly from street dealers.
According to researchers, more than half of the heroin injecting group were said to be "largely abstinent" and one-in-five did not use street heroin at all.
Before they began the programme, the addicts in the heroin injecting group were spending more than £300 a week on street drugs. After six months, this had reduced to an average of £50 a week.
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It used to be about chasing the buzz, but when you go on the programme you just want to feel comfortable
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John, RIOTT participant

There was also a big drop in the number of offences addicts admitted committing to obtain money to feed their habit.
In the previous month before the scheme started, addicts in the heroin injecting group reported carrying out 1,731 crimes.
After six months, this had fallen to 547 offences - a reduction of more than two-thirds.
One of the heroin addicts on the programme, a 34-year-old man called John, had been addicted for eight years when the trials began. He fed his habit by dealing.
"My life was just a shambles... waking up, chasing money, chasing drugs," he said.
But John said the scheme had transformed his life "100 per cent" and he now had a part-time job.
"It used to be about chasing the buzz, but when you go on the programme you just want to feel comfortable," he said.
_46377302_heroin_spl.jpg
Many participants "substantially" reduced their use of street drugs

"I've started reducing my dose gradually, so that maybe in a few months time I'll be able to come off it altogether, drug free totally."
In its drug strategy, published last year, the government said it would "roll out" the prescription of injectible heroin, subject to the findings of the pilot scheme.
The National Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse (NTA), which administers drug treatment in England, said the results were "encouraging".
The NTA said an independent expert group, set up to advise the government, had concluded that there was enough "positive evidence of the benefits" of the programme to merit further pilots.
The NTA is understood to be keen to evaluate the financial implications of the scheme. At £15,000 per user per year, supervised heroin injecting is three times more expensive than other treatments.
As for the legal status of other drugs I really think that that the long term permanent health effects have to be thought of as well (including tobacco and alcohol)
Heroin actually causes no permanent damage to users, I think cannabis needs more research, and to legalise drugs such as LSD and meth amphetamines would be legalising brain damage, these two drugs are so harmfull to a users health especially brain cells.
 
LSD is pretty much harmless, look it up. It can only :wub: you up if there is something wrong with you to begin with.
I don't agree maybe the LSD of the 60's was harmless but the Acid of today apparently doesn't even contain LSD, it would be interesting to ask someone old enough who has used both (not me unfortunately ;)). I based the previous statement on the response I got from a drug counselor once when I asked him about the long term effects of acid and he told me that it kills more brain cells than any other drug (this was a while ago before Ice was on the streets.)
 
I don't agree maybe the LSD of the 60's was harmless but the Acid of today apparently doesn't even contain LSD, it would be interesting to ask someone old enough who has used both (not me unfortunately ;)). I based the previous statement on the response I got from a drug counselor once when I asked him about the long term effects of acid and he told me that it kills more brain cells than any other drug (this was a while ago before Ice was on the streets.)

Then I'm afraid he lied to you. LSD doesn't kill brain cells. That's... an incredibly despicable lie. Anyway, LSD is active in such low dosages that it's one of the only drugs that can be put on a blotter. There are a few such as DOC, but fake LSD is quite rare. And if it was legalized, this wouldn't be a problem at all now, would it?
 
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Then I'm afraid he lied to you. LSD doesn't kill brain cells. That's... an incredibly despicable lie. Anyway, LSD is active in such low dosages that it's one of the only drugs that can be put on a blotter. There are a few such as DOC, but fake LSD is quite rare. And if it was legalized, this wouldn't be a problem at all now, would it?
It's a bit hard to have scientific research into an illegal substance who knows what's being put into it in these illegal labs around the world, and acid is often a locally made drug, (I hate saying this because this is the exact logic anti-recreational drug groups and governments use in their propaganda against drugs and you can't prove them wrong because there is no scientific evidence because it is all underground, hence they can say whatever :wub: they like.) But I am also talking from experience and that fried feeling you have for the 24 hours after can not be good for you.
 
It is the progressives who have told us we need government to help out and intervene to help out the weaker people in society

Fixed.

The reason why Republicans don't support it is because conservatism as a rule, especially regarding social issues, is about retaining values, morality, and sustaining the status quo. It's not surprising that it was indeed the Republicans themselves who pushed for prohibition. I am seeing more and more that the Republican party has never historically been the more libertarian of the two parties. Ever.
 
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Usually I feel wonderful after a trip.
I want what your having :laughter:. There really does need to be some serious research into all drugs before we can really make informed decisions. One of the advantages of legalising drugs is that we could be more open about their manufacture and effects.
 
America is backwards in a lot of ways beyond our draconian drug laws. We are also one of the few First World nations where legal adults can't drink until they're 21, or where prostitution isn't legal. I think the fact that people rot for 20 years in prison for possession of marijuana is a great travesty. But some people profit handsomely off the drug war. Politicians get to tell voters they're "tough on crime." Law enforcement gets to keep a lot of drug money and use it to buy lots of toys for their departments. And the drug companies can make billions off peddling their own brand of mind-altering drugs.
 
America is backwards in a lot of ways beyond our draconian drug laws. We are also one of the few First World nations where legal adults can't drink until they're 21, or where prostitution isn't legal. I think the fact that people rot for 20 years in prison for possession of marijuana is a great travesty. But some people profit handsomely off the drug war. Politicians get to tell voters they're "tough on crime." Law enforcement gets to keep a lot of drug money and use it to buy lots of toys for their departments. And the drug companies can make billions off peddling their own brand of mind-altering drugs.

Indeed. And those who do argue in defense of all of that usually utilize strawmen like if we lower the drinking age to 18 it would mean more car accidents from drunk teenagers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this a drunk driving issue and not an age issue? It drives me nuts.
 
The potency of LSD has actuallyy decreased since the 60's so you will not get as messed up off a tab as you would in the 60's. It is almost impossible to overdose on LSD since the active dose is around 300 times smaller than the lethal dose. Resistance buildups very quickly to LSD making it impracticle to trip more than once every great while even most of the hippies i know say more than once every few weeks is a waste of acid. There has never been a case of Death linked to LSD as LSD actually links to the THC receptors in the brain so guess what it is at least someone natural for it to be in our body.
 
The amount of myths and straight up lies about LSD is incredible. I have had people tell me all sorts about LSD- it makes you see massive pink bunnies, it makes you think you can fly and jumpy out of windows, it makes you go schizo, it makes you think spiders are crawling all over you etc. Its just ludicrous.
 

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