Confederate Pride, is it wrong?

Confederate Pride, is it wrong?

Unfortunately the CSA Constitution endorsed slavery to the hilt. Some people feel the various CSA flags represent slavery and some don't. Unfortunately, morons such as the KKK equate the CSA flags to racism and prolong a bad and incorrect stereotype.

As a bit of interesting info., there are many photos of black CSA military veterans attending reunions with their white comrades and there are monuments to blacks that served and fought for the South in the Southern states. Slavery was wrong and these blcks knew it but the South was their home and many, both free and slave, had good relations with white folks.

Chris
 
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My 3rd great grandpa didn't have slaves but had a 2 best friends one black one white. Wasn't there colored regiments even though the CSA said no color regiments? It's true what they say when the rich wage war its the poor who die.
 
There were no black CSA regiments in the CSA miltary, although many individuals did serve in non-combat and combat roles. At the begginning of the war there were some black militia units in the South composed of freedman but the CSA governmet did not accept their service in the CSA national military. Near the end of the war finally some black units were raised in Virignia but they were vey few.

During the war many Northern soldiers were shocked to see blacks fighting within CSA white units, and N.B. Forrest actively recruitted blacks into his combat units regardless of what the official stance and laws of the CSA stated. At 1st Bull Run blacks served in some CSA Arty. bats. at l;east, and one blck southern survivor of that battle and the war stated that '... there were quite a few black folks killed at Mannassas ...', wors to that effect.

Most blacks did ser in noncombat roles in the CSA military but a good number fought. Estimated numbers of blacks serving in CSA forces is between about 60 to 80,000.

Chris
 
There were no black CSA regiments in the CSA miltary, although many individuals did serve in non-combat and combat roles. At the begginning of the war there were some black militia units in the South composed of freedman but the CSA governmet did not accept their service in the CSA national military. Near the end of the war finally some black units were raised in Virignia but they were vey few.

During the war many Northern soldiers were shocked to see blacks fighting within CSA white units, and N.B. Forrest actively recruitted blacks into his combat units regardless of what the official stance and laws of the CSA stated. At 1st Bull Run blacks served in some CSA Arty. bats. at l;east, and one blck southern survivor of that battle and the war stated that '... there were quite a few black folks killed at Mannassas ...', wors to that effect.

Most blacks did ser in noncombat roles in the CSA military but a good number fought. Estimated numbers of blacks serving in CSA forces is between about 60 to 80,000.

Chris

Most acept that then number of negros who were acepted into CSA sevice was 14000, and is the result of negro historians examaining the question.

The 2 negros killed at Bull Run was from the Washington Art, and were the first documented negros killed in southern mil service.
 
How many of them were there and did they force African-Americans to fight or it was on free will??

Well, I certainly find it hard to believe that they were forced to attend reunions.

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I was well aware that Unionists had Black or Colored regiments, the 54th Massachusetts for example was the first one, but I had no idea that Confederacy had Black regiments too. How many of them were there and did they force African-Americans to fight or it was on free will??

After J Browns raid VA and most other southern states disbanded the militia unitsb that had coloured members, the exception was LA which hada massive number of free blacks in all black units. These were offered and declined for CSA service, and many of the individuals went into sevice in other units. Intrestigly the 54 came back from the attack on Wagner with a captive CSA negro in Full uniform. At then onset of war the free negros of the south wanted to fight, but the CSA would not allow the states to furnish full regiments that contained them, so there were no formations of that size in CSA service untill 65, when VA had some that saw action in the retreat from Richmond, by that time the CSA had allowed negros to serve of there own free will. the number who served was very small, 10% or so of the Union Army by wars end was as much as the North could find, the south by contrast had nothing like that number, ( which when anyone post 60-80k is that number you know they are posting crap) but did use negros for manual labour and used it extensivly. N B Forrest freed all his negros after Chikamauga, saying that the war could not be won by military means, but that he would fight on anyway, and salvery was not what he was fighting to continue, most of his former slaves then carried on doing combat or supportb sevice with him and post war he provided land for them, and during the war the CSA government payed them.
 
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Well, I certainly find it hard to believe that they were forced to attend reunions.

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Not only that, when Lincoln asked the Military why it could not win, it explained that the CSA was using negros in non combat roles that whites had to fill in the northern ranks, and thats was why the CSA was punching over its weight, F Douglas told Congress the same, that the south was using the negros to help stave of defeat, and congress also was told by federal officers that Jackson corps had 25% negros in it, doing the non combat roles whites were detailed to do, its this mil neccisity that helped Lincon chose to issue the EP.


IIRc those pics are from the G_Burg anniversary, and no provision for negros had been made by the Northern orgainsers, and the white and negro southerners simply mucked in together.

Has some intresting black confederate info.http://civilwarmemory.typepad.com/civil_war_memory/the_myth_of_black_confederates/
 
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and the war was not about slavery it was about states rights vs central government

basically the difference between a republic and a federation

You lose one war and never hear the end of it -- I am a proud descendant of many men who fought and died on the confedorate side during that war--- and they werent fighting to keep slavery they were fighting to rule themselves.
 
and the war was not about slavery it was about states rights vs central government

basically the difference between a republic and a federation

You lose one war and never hear the end of it -- I am a proud descendant of many men who fought and died on the confedorate side during that war--- and they werent fighting to keep slavery they were fighting to rule themselves.

Very true...but try telling that to people who are ignorant of U.S. history...a category of people to which most Americans belong, unfortunately.
 
In my eyes the Union were wrong and were the agressors. So if I had to decide which one to pick back then or just now then I would probably pick the confederacy.
 
Thanks mate, I was aware of slavery in Africa and slave raids there, but slave ownership in the States by Blacks themselves is totally new to me.
I'll do some research on the issue now and come back with the feedback.
Thanks for the links. :thumbsup2

Try the 1860 census, it list free negros who own slave negros, LA ( where most 0of this occurs because of French freed negros went into the slkave ownership and passed into USA society with the LA purchase) had about 30k negros owned by 3k free negros, the wealthest slave in 1860 had assets worth 3k, and an annual income of $240, otoh the life extpetency of a cane field hand in SC was reaaly, really short, average slave income in 1860 was more than the US Mil basic wage, go figure.
 
Try the 1860 census, it list free negros who own slave negros, LA ( where most 0of this occurs because of French freed negros went into the slkave ownership and passed into USA society with the LA purchase) had about 30k negros owned by 3k free negros, the wealthest slave in 1860 had assets worth 3k, and an annual income of $240, otoh the life extpetency of a cane field hand in SC was reaaly, really short, average slave income in 1860 was more than the US Mil basic wage, go figure.

If you haven't, you should really read Time on the Cross (http://eh.net/bookreviews/library/weiss ). The nature of slavery in the US/CS was very different to how it's generally portrayed.
 
Truly unbelievable. I was not really familiar with this aspect of slavery.

That is because nobody teaches it. I believe it is because of deliberate effort to demonize the south and justify the American Civil War as a war against slavery, when, in fact, emancipation did not become an issue until some time after the war was underway. It is an attempt to paint the aggressor (the Union) in such a way that portrays a moral high ground. This, in and of itself, is nonsense because slavery was practiced in some of the states that were fighting against the Confederacy. West Virginia was admitted to the Union as a slave state in 1863, after the emancipation proclamation was issued. Slavery existed as far north as New Jersey, only they renamed "slaves" as "apprentices for life."
 
To the someone who comes from Europe, the entire notion of slavery was portrayed as a practice of the South, and thats why Civil war was fought. To end slavery in the South. Thats the view that many Europeans got, myself included.
But the notion that many Blacks actually owned slaves is still alien to me, I can't believe it. Some things are never black or white, really.
 
To the someone who comes from Europe, the entire notion of slavery was portrayed as a practice of the South, and thats why Civil war was fought. To end slavery in the South. Thats the view that many Europeans got, myself included.

Well, the view that the war was fought to end slavery is just not compatible with the facts. In fact, if you read the first emancipation proclamation, it clearly says that any Confederate state that rejoins the Union by January 1 of the following year, would not be in danger of losing its right to own slaves. Again, all this talk of emancipation happened after the war had already begun. To say that the war was fought to free slaves is a revisionist line, which unfortunately has carried on for a very long time.

But the notion that many Blacks actually owned slaves is still alien to me, I can't believe it. Some things are never black or white, really.

Most things are never black and white.
 
If you haven't, you should really read Time on the Cross (http://eh.net/bookreviews/library/weiss ). The nature of slavery in the US/CS was very different to how it's generally portrayed.

Yep, its that book i was thinking off, it has that which i mentioned in brief, but in much more detail, for instance northern farm labour worked cheaper than slaves, in that the salave recieved in bonuses more than did the northern farm worker on his day rate, which was why for almost a century slavery was thought to be unprofitable at theconomic level for owners. The follow on book, which i also have "Without Consent or contract" by Fogel and engerman, is also a must read to understand the economic of slavery in the US, this one did not win the nobel prize as TOTC and answers questions of slve economics for the first time use of statatical data rather than baised viewpoint.

Truly unbelievable. I was not really familiar with this aspect of slavery.

No reason why you should, for most of the last century slavery was equated with the soviet gulag or nazi camps in terms of its social use, its probably only since the 60s that the carrot ( ie how do you motivate with incentives)and stick ( how to coercice someone to work via punative punishment) explanation of slavery has become more wiedly understood, rather than the focus on the stick., also it helps understand negros were not work shy slackers only able to work via punishment, or breed for profit via stud farms as the northern papers liked to portray the south, now we know the facts do not support a large scale breeding prograjme ever existed at all, except in northern lets bash the white slave owners. But instead were the makers of the america, because it was there labour that fuelled sourgeren incomes, generated via carrot motications principly, and always baked up with the use of force, but you had more chance of being whipped in the Uk army than asa slave.

That is because nobody teaches it. I believe it is because of deliberate effort to demonize the south and justify the American Civil War as a war against slavery, when, in fact, emancipation did not become an issue until some time after the war was underway. It is an attempt to paint the aggressor (the Union) in such a way that portrays a moral high ground. This, in and of itself, is nonsense because slavery was practiced in some of the states that were fighting against the Confederacy. West Virginia was admitted to the Union as a slave state in 1863, after the emancipation proclamation was issued. Slavery existed as far north as New Jersey, only they renamed "slaves" as "apprentices for life."

A correction if i may, W VA came in with slavery bar in its constition, it was this bar which allowed the federal governewmnat to end slavery in DC as it could not do som untill slavery ended in VA, and the Pierpoint governemnt acting as the governmnet of VA recognised the creation of W Va with no slavery, and gave aceptence to the end of slavery in VA, which then allowed slavery to end in DC, which it did.

You are quite correct that most americans, and ROTWorld for that amtter, really dont know what slavery entailed, they equate it as bad, ergo the south was moarlly wrong, but had they read about northern use of child labour, they would have soon found alack of moral high ground for the norths factory ethos.

Posts merged.
 
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In regards to the OP: No, there's nothing wrong with it. In fact Confederate (as opposed to "Southern," generally used by rednecks for racist comparison and other ignorant claims) pride is something I hold near and dear. The very fact that my forefathers decided that they were being wronged and after failing at diplomatic means, took action, speaks volumes to their courage and their ethical backbone.

Slavery aside, being a mere sidetrack to give the Lincoln Administration a moral high ground after the Federal Industrialists and bankers suffered low retention and reenlistments as well as desertion and no new recruits, the causes were all ones that the founders of the United States would have sided with and that I can sympathize with. (Did you know in the state I live in, New Mexico, US Army officers had slaves as late as the 1870's, over ten years after the emancipation and end of the war?)



To me flying that flag goes against the United States. The southern states fired the first shot and declared open rebellion. To me it is a traitors flag simple as that. I live in Kentucky so I have to see it all the time. My great, great grandfather fought for the Union in the 9th Ky. Cav. But out of respect for our freedoms, it is someone's right to fly whatever they want. Even though to me it is disgusting. I'll quote John Hunt, an Illinois man who had sympathy for the rebel cause and almost joined himself... "Like a great many poor misguided individuals living contiguous to the southern border I was almost ready to join the issue with 'our brethren of the south.'" What decided the issue for Hunt was the shelling of Fort Sumter when the Confederates became "aggressors, and committed the unpardonable sin of firing on the flag, they revolutionized political sentiment in southern illinois." He concluded with "The vast majority of our able-bodied male population,myself with the rest. Sooner or later enlisted under the banner of 'Old Glory' in defense of our country." This was taken from the book "Nothing But Victory: Army of the Tennessee 1861-1865. It is a good read and I highly recommend it if you have an interest in the most successful Union army.

Lincoln was told not to attempt to reinforce or supplement the fort with the implements of war, as it was now in theory a Confederate State fort occupied by a foreign army. The Southern Commanders authorized a ship to take the families out of potential harm's way. Lincoln authorized the flotilla to attempt to stock the fort with further munitions, hence the willful and committed effort of Lincoln to "Inaugurate Civil War" was fulfilled, and he was able to raise troops to invade the south.

As is the way in politics, the military man is often made into the tools of government; a throw away item that can be replaced and has fulfilled his cause.

I also had a southern family member who fought for the North. At the onset he rode from Georgia and obtained a commission in a Union Cavalry regiment.

He was with Sherman's murderous rape to the sea, and was dispatched by his commander to his home town in hopes that they would not, upon seeing their own at the head of the column, resist.

In the irony of the times, Griffin's best friend, wounded in action during the war, was now in charge of the Confederate Home Guard of the County. Seeing the expected column come into town with an unexpected commander, the man stood from his place of ambush, walked into the street, and blew his best friend off his horse.

(That was the story we were told as kids to teach us never to forsake family, lol, and I have the records of it somewhere.)

The good and the bad of any nation is remembered, and the loser often winds up with the bulk of the bad being exaggerated and the winner's good exaggerated. This was true of the American Revolution, 1812, and the ACW.

The North did successfully free the slaves- albeit in the south, where they at the time had no jurisdiction- and "re-unified and saved the Republic." However, they did this by employing total war strategy on women and children (while the Army of Virginia, on their way to Gettysburg, was ordered by RE Lee to purchase any shoes or other articles they needed, in contrast).

The South did shoot herself in the foot by not freeing the slaves. The unfortunate circumstance of having the able and abolitionist members in uniform, and the businessmen who profited from slavery in congress, resulted in the bills to free the slaves being turned down. However, the living condition of a slave in the south was arguably better than 90% of the free blacks in the North (many abolitionists were also very racist- they should be free, not equal); it was not wholesale brutality like portrayed in some history books and early movies/documentaries.

The post war south also damaged her image with the rise of the KKK and "Redneck Southern Pride."

The KKK- I need not explain. It did spread well into the North and Western states, but no getting around it started in the South.

Redneck Southern Pride- these guys may not be KKK, but some are close. It is disgusting. Not only with their outlook on minorities, but also the image they put on the south, thinking that if they fake making their drawl 'bigger' and have more 'baccy chew on their boots, that makes them more in tune with the ghosts of their forefathers, who in reality are turning in their graves that the "South will rise again" crowd is so utterly ignorant.

In closing, having pride in the heritage of your confederate forefathers and their ability to take a stand is not only "ok," it's a part of you, and this nation, and is a good thing. The lessons learned by a relatively infant nation were boundless, and are lessons current presidents would do well to remember.
 

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The Noble Lord,
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