Al-Quds in Basra?

Al-Quds in Basra?

Joined
Aug 24, 2006
Messages
16,475
Reputation
2,418
Points
20
Location
England
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article3690010.ece

IRANIAN forces were involved in the recent battle for Basra, General David Petraeus, the US commander in Iraq, is expected to tell Congress this week.


Military and intelligence sources believe Iranians were operating at a tactical command level with the Shi’ite militias fighting Iraqi security forces; some were directing operations on the ground, they think.
Petraeus intends to use the evidence of Iranian involvement to argue against any reductions in US forces.


Dr Daniel Goure, a defence analyst at the Lexington Institute in Virginia, said: “There is no question that Petraeus will be tough on Iran. It is one thing to withdraw troops when there is purely sectarian fighting but it is another thing if it leaves the Iranians to move in.”



Cant find anymore sources on this at the moment. But it is The Times. IF its true:


Is Iran like that sherriff in Rambo: First Blood? Are they pushing it?

Is Iran that confident that it has the minerals to directly challenge US hegemony in the region?

Can Iran be coerced into helping the US in Iraq?
 
Is Iran like that sherriff in Rambo: First Blood? Are they pushing it?

:laughter:

They have been for awhile.

Is Iran that confident that it has the minerals to directly challenge US hegemony in the region?

They know that the US won't do anything serious without solid evidence. And if we did, 2 weeks into any kind of conflict the entire world would forget what started it and public oppinion would blame the US.

Can Iran be coerced into helping the US in Iraq?

Sure. Until we leave and they get to turn it into a colony.


I belive we need to start sending their RG douches to Guantanamo Bay and force them to publicly admit that they were sent by the Government before handing them back.
 
Last edited:
Of course there were Iranian troops in Basra, the Mahdi army is essentially an Iranian paramilitary group as opposed to a local militia.
 
They know that the US won't do anything serious without solid evidence. And if he did, 2 weeks into any kind of conflict the entire world would forget what started it and public oppinion would blame the US.

i'm actually quite suprised the US did not attack in 2005. Looking at ThiudareiksGunthigg's insight into the run up of the war, i would think the US would have more evidence on Iran than they had on Iraq, especially with Iran's activities in Iraq.

Sure. Until we leave and they get to turn it into a colony.
i agree. any vaccum left will be filled by the Iraqi Shia backers, and maybe a belated powergrab by the Saudis in the west.

I belive we need to start sending their RG douches to Guantanamo Bay and force them to publicly admit that they were sent by the Government before handing them back.
i think the US would face fierce political resistance from the current Iraqi government. The way Ahmadinejad met Maliki in Terhran recently was like they were long lost buddies.
 
i'm actually quite suprised the US did not attack in 2005. Looking at ThiudareiksGunthigg's insight into the run up of the war, i would think the US would have more evidence on Iran than they had on Iraq, especially with Iran's activities in Iraq.

I was suprised about that as well. I suppose it was, as you said, due to the Iraqi Government.

i think the US would face fierce political resistance from the current Iraqi government. The way Ahmadinejad met Maliki in Terhran recently was like they were long lost buddies.

Good point :hmmm:
 
Of course there were Iranian troops in Basra, the Mahdi army is essentially an Iranian paramilitary group as opposed to a local militia.


:hmmm:. I read an article recently about Iran's training of Hezbollah:


Do you reckon its the same thing with the Mahdi Amry (or perhaps more so)?

It seems Iran has fingers in alot of pies. Is this over-confidence? People who have pissed off the US in the recent past have not lived to regret it.
 
Of course there were Iranian troops in Basra, the Mahdi army is essentially an Iranian paramilitary group as opposed to a local militia.

That is total and complete garbage. If you’re going to try to comment on what’s going on in Iraq, at least do some basic homework on who is who first.

It’s Maliki who is far closer to Iran than Muqtada al-Sadr: Maliki’s weak government is backed by the Shi’ite Islamic Supreme Council of Iraq and its Badr Brigades militia. Guess which country set them up and still works hand-in-glove with them? Iran.

This also makes the idea that Iranian troops were fighting against Maliki’s forces (and US forces) in Basra even less likely. As Middle East expert Gregory Gause commented a couple of days ago, "I'm open to evidence, but it would be a real departure if Iran had organized units fighting …. It wouldn't make sense to make their own guys [Maliki and ISCI] look bad …. The status quo is in their interest"

Iran backs all the Shi’ite factions and Shi’ite militias to some extent, since that suits their overall desire for influence in the region. So naturally that includes the Mahdi Army. But to paint Sadr as an Iranian stooge and to pretend that al Quds troops were supporting him against Maliki defies logic.

Petraeus had better produce some evidence to back this claim. Otherwise it looks like the old trick of painting Iran as the reason troops should stay in Iraq; something the Bushies do whenever things start getting worse in Iraq.

If the Bush Administration had half a clue and wasn’t in thrall to some hidebound thinking regarding Iran they would realise that both they and Iran have an interest in maintaining the status quo in Iraq (including crushing Al Qeada). The smart move would be to negotiate with Iran and co-operate with Tehran on Iraq. But try getting the neo-con rump in Washington to contemplate that sensible option.

No, painting Iran as the bad guys (despite how counter-productive this is) is more their style. Hey, they’ve bungled everything else in Iraq since day one, so why expect them to change tack now?
 
One day I'm going to sit down and write up a list of things Iran has had their hand in. Its amazing how many of the downright crappy things that have happened in the world they played a significant part in.

The Iranians have been training people within their borders, then sending them to train locally within Iraq. Al Quds has most certainly crossed the border, but they can just as easily make our lives miserable on their own turf.

Id be skeptical as to whether they were in Basra.

No, painting Iran as the bad guys (despite how counter-productive this is) is more their style. Hey, they’ve bungled everything else in Iraq since day one, so why expect them to change tack now?

For awhile I thought along these lines. Unfortunately if Iran were a person, the word mentally unstable would best fit its actions going back 40 years.
 
Last edited:
i'm actually quite suprised the US did not attack in 2005. Looking at ThiudareiksGunthigg's insight into the run up of the war, i would think the US would have more evidence on Iran than they had on Iraq, especially with Iran's activities in Iraq.

Even if they did they have zero political capital, support or credibility to do anything about it. Anything short of Iran going we have nuclear missile and its going off in 5, 4, 3, 2....pretty much assures all the US can do is play the back channel diplomatic stuff. Besides given current Iranian's presidents own erroding support better to watch him sink and die from his piss poor economic plan and see what comes after. Good news my fellow iranians we have nuclear power bad news you have no job!
 
Last edited:
For awhile I thought along these lines. Unfortunately if Iran were a person, the word mentally unstable would best fit its actions going back 40 years.

Their "mentally unstable" actions have (i) kept them in power for almost 30 years, (ii) allowed them to fight off and then defeat an invader in the longest war of the 20th Century and (iii) more lately, allowed them to outsmart, outplay and out-manoeveur the US in Iraq for the last five years. Not bad for "mentally unstable" guys.

These supposedly "mentally unstable" guys have been playing a smart game in Iraq and winning it hands down. But sure - go ahead and totally underestimate them. That worked so well with the Iraqi insurgency (remember Rumsfeld's "dead enders" and Bush's "Bring it on!" idiocy?)

Some left wing bloggers have been going into predicable fantasies about how this accusation about al-Quds troops in Iraq means the beginning of a sneaky proxy war against Iran. This is also nonsense. This scaremongering and oversimplification about Iran's influence in Iraq is just using the good ol' Iranian boogeyman to frighten the US public into keeping troops in Iraq by pretending that if the US left the Iranians would move in. That's nonsense as well. Iran invaded southern Iraq several times during the Iran-Iraq War and Iraqi Shi'ites fought tooth and nail to keep them out. And that was on behalf of Saddam's hated Sunni regime.

The idea that the sons of those men would simply let Tehran take away their new-found freedom and domination if the US left is more fantasy.
 
That is total and complete garbage. If you’re going to try to comment on what’s going on in Iraq, at least do some basic homework on who is who first.

harsh. the performance of the Mahdi Army in Najaf and more recently Basra would indicate these guys are pretty well trained and can do business on a higher operational level

It’s Maliki who is far closer to Iran than Muqtada al-Sadr: Maliki’s weak government is backed by the Shi’ite Islamic Supreme Council of Iraq and its Badr Brigades militia. Guess which country set them up and still works hand-in-glove with them? Iran.

i agree. And Al-Sadr was the only one not to have left Iran in the days of Saddam whilst Maliki, Al-Amiri and Al-Hakim stayed in Tehran at the Iranian's pleasure. The former is almost more nationalistic about an independent Iran.

This also makes the idea that Iranian troops were fighting against Maliki’s forces (and US forces) in Basra even less likely. As Middle East expert Gregory Gause commented a couple of days ago, "I'm open to evidence, but it would be a real departure if Iran had organized units fighting …. It wouldn't make sense to make their own guys [Maliki and ISCI] look bad …. The status quo is in their interest"

i read that too. Something smells fishy with the whole Basra operation especially if a ceasefire was arranged in Qom, Iran.

Iran backs all the Shi’ite factions and Shi’ite militias to some extent, since that suits their overall desire for influence in the region. So naturally that includes the Mahdi Army. But to paint Sadr as an Iranian stooge and to pretend that al Quds troops were supporting him against Maliki defies logic.
I gotta admit, the Iranians have played this post war government formation extremely well. Iranian influence across parties has risen exponentially.

Petraeus had better produce some evidence to back this claim. Otherwise it looks like the old trick of painting Iran as the reason troops should stay in Iraq; something the Bushies do whenever things start getting worse in Iraq.
the fact that i'm finding only one source on the OP may indicate the lack of evidence. But Petreus seemed to have changed tactics recently when it comes to openly accusing the Iranians (e.g. dismissing EFP's were from Tehran last year)

If the Bush Administration had half a clue and wasn’t in thrall to some hidebound thinking regarding Iran they would realise that both they and Iran have an interest in maintaining the status quo in Iraq (including crushing Al Qeada). The smart move would be to negotiate with Iran and co-operate with Tehran on Iraq. But try getting the neo-con rump in Washington to contemplate that sensible option.

No, painting Iran as the bad guys (despite how counter-productive this is) is more their style. Hey, they’ve bungled everything else in Iraq since day one, so why expect them to change tack now?

i wrote similar sentiments in the conclusion part of my dissertation on Iran (yet to hand in :(). I can think much more could be achieved by the US recognising the change in the balalnce of power and treating it less like a zero sum game. Engage Iran, as recently suggested in Greece by Allbright, Kissinger, Baker et al.

Even if they did they have zero political capital, support or credibility to do anything about it. Anything short of Iran going we have nuclear missile and its going off in 5, 4, 3, 2....pretty much assures all the US can do is play the back channel diplomatic stuff. Besides given current Iranian's presidents own erroding support better to watch him sink and die from his piss poor economic plan and see what comes after. Good news my fellow iranians we have nuclear power bad news you have no job!

Thomas Friedman (Foreign Policy magazine) called the recent spike in Iranian confidence the "oil shield" and mentioned "petropolitics". The high price of oil giving leverage to Iran to follow foreing policty goals (bit like Chavez). It doesnt last for long though. Iran needs to make sure it doesnt waste this opportunity like Nigeria did in the 1970s.
 
harsh. the performance of the Mahdi Army in Najaf and more recently Basra would indicate these guys are pretty well trained and can do business on a higher operational level

There's no doubt about that. But I can't see how that undermines my point about the blatant oversimplificaitons we see about who Iran is working with and how that we see this both in the dumber bits of the media and reflected here.

i read that too. Something smells fishy with the whole Basra operation especially if a ceasefire was arranged in Qom, Iran.

Maliki needed someone to save his bacon and US troops and bombers turning Basra into another Fallujah wasn't going to do it. So he turned to his good buddies in Iran - who are mates with both sides - to broker a face-saving deal. Iran was happy to do so, because having one of their proxies in Iraq tangling with another isn't in their interests.

I gotta admit, the Iranians have played this post war government formation extremely well. Iranian influence across parties has risen exponentially.

Yep. Not bad for a pack of irrational, crazed lunatics. :whistling

the fact that i'm finding only one source on the OP may indicate the lack of evidence. But Petreus seemed to have changed tactics recently when it comes to openly accusing the Iranians (e.g. dismissing EFP's were from Tehran last year)

I just read a transscript of his testimony yesterday and he made no explicit claims about direct intervention of Iranian troops. There were repeated references to disasterous consequences of Iranian influence if the US withdrew though, including hints that Iran would take over. Which is crazed fantasy.

i wrote similar sentiments in the conclusion part of my dissertation on Iran (yet to hand in :(). I can think much more could be achieved by the US recognising the change in the balalnce of power and treating it less like a zero sum game. Engage Iran, as recently suggested in Greece by Allbright, Kissinger, Baker et al.

Gregory Gause said it again in Congressional hearings last week. But Bush and the surviving neo-cons are hunkered down in their fantasy bunker and don't want to listen.
 
Their "mentally unstable" actions have (i) kept them in power for almost 30 years, (ii) allowed them to fight off and then defeat an invader in the longest war of the 20th Century and (iii) more lately, allowed them to outsmart, outplay and out-manoeveur the US in Iraq for the last five years. Not bad for "mentally unstable" guys.

(i)Its a defacto dictatorship, thats how they have remained in power, by keeping their people down. (ii) religious fervor allowed them to hold off Iraq. Iran was in a bad way, then they marched their white robed countrymen into the desert and straight into a meat grinder. They threw men at the problem. It was Iraq that packed up and went home, they were hardly thrown out of Iran.(iii) They back an insurgency, not exactly an act of military genius, the outline is there for you, all you have to do is play a small part. They play the easy role, the US plays a much more difficult role.
 
(i)Its a defacto dictatorship, thats how they have remained in power, by keeping their people down. (ii) religious fervor allowed them to hold off Iraq. Iran was in a bad way, then they marched their white robed countrymen into the desert and straight into a meat grinder. They threw men at the problem. It was Iraq that packed up and went home, they were hardly thrown out of Iran.(iii) They back an insurgency, not exactly an act of military genius, the outline is there for you, all you have to do is play a small part. They play the easy role, the US plays a much more difficult role.

As I said, feel free to underestimate them. The fact remains that they have manoeveured things very neatly in the last few years and are now in a position where they have far more influence in the region than they have ever had. Or could ever hoped to have had.

Are you going to tell me that was part of Bush's plan when he invaded Iraq? :no: Or that it was an inevitable consequence of that invasion? :no:

Nope. Things could have turned out very differently, but they have played a smart game. And this is not simply my opinion, but the consensus of anyone with any knowledge of the facts over the last several years.

So excuse me while I totally ignore your typically facile and simplistic analysis and stick to what the experts agree - Iran has done well and built a strong regional position for themselves in tricky circumstances.
 
There's no doubt about that. But I can't see how that undermines my point about the blatant oversimplificaitons we see about who Iran is working with and how that we see this both in the dumber bits of the media and reflected here.

I was only referring to whether the Mahdi Army could be considered a paramilitary org cf to a militia. I dont have enough bona fide references to say who trained them to become better than the average militia. Looking at the possible candidates, i would guess it was Tehran, but this is only my conjecture and unrepeatable academically.

Maliki needed someone to save his bacon and US troops and bombers turning Basra into another Fallujah wasn't going to do it. So he turned to his good buddies in Iran - who are mates with both sides - to broker a face-saving deal. Iran was happy to do so, because having one of their proxies in Iraq tangling with another isn't in their interests.

Very good point. It was also interesting to note that Maliki didnt go after the Al-Fadhila milita since it controls extremely important economic regions of Basra. It would not be assumptious to say the battle was halted by quiet whispers in the corridors of the Presedential Palace in Tehran.

Yep. Not bad for a pack of irrational, crazed lunatics. :whistling
I agree. On the contrary, Iranian planners have been giving their A game in Iraq.

I just read a transscript of his testimony yesterday and he made no explicit claims about direct intervention of Iranian troops. There were repeated references to disasterous consequences of Iranian influence if the US withdrew though, including hints that Iran would take over. Which is crazed fantasy.

i'm not so sure. I think Iran's current political capital in Iraq alongside years of hosting the Badr Brigade, ISCI and more recently Al-Sadr (the guys in power) would make a heavy Iranian prescence in the south and east viable. I dont believe this prescence would be openly martial in nature. If the Americans left, any large scale Lebanon-esqe war could make Tehran "do a Syria" and move in "peacekeepers". But the possiblity of such a civl war taking place is outta my undergrad sphere of knowledge.

Gregory Gause said it again in Congressional hearings last week. But Bush and the surviving neo-cons are hunkered down in their fantasy bunker and don't want to listen.

I think the next President (in both Tehran and Washington) may be able to make more progress. The Iranians helped out the US in Afghanistan in 2001. Clinton even wanted to normalise relations. I hope the neo-con project is over.

(ii) religious fervor allowed them to hold off Iraq. Iran was in a bad way, then they marched their white robed countrymen into the desert and straight into a meat grinder. They threw men at the problem. It was Iraq that packed up and went home, they were hardly thrown out of Iran.(iii) They back an insurgency, not exactly an act of military genius, the outline is there for you, all you have to do is play a small part. They play the easy role, the US plays a much more difficult role.

You know i respect you, but diminishing the achievements of the Iranians in their war of defence isn't correct. They fought amazingly hard just to hold off the Iraqis when the Iraqis were being funded and supported by the US, UK, France, S Arabia and most of the Arab states. I personally think they did amazingly well. I disagree with theocratic governance, but the pragmatism and flexibility the Iranian's have applied since 2003 has been more than good. (i can list specific things but i think people may find it boring:().
 
Heinz, it was a protracted war, where both sides got to a point where neither was in any shape to score the knockout punch. So the Iranians literally setup a program to radicalize men of all ages, dressed them in white robes, and sent them into the desert to launch suicide attacks and the like. They quite simply threw men at the problem with no regard to casualties, similar to the Russians in WW2.

So yeah, if creating suicide brigades, scaring the crap out of the Iraqis to a point they thought Iran was bat guano crazy, thats certainly an achievement. Not what I would call sound military doctrine, but its par the course for them.


Again, Iran had the table set for them in Iraq. They did nothing special politically nor militarily.
 
Last edited:
Heinz, it was a protracted war, where both sides got to a point where neither was in any shape to score the knockout punch. So the Iranians literally setup a program to radicalize men of all ages, dressed them in white robes, and sent them into the desert to launch suicide attacks and the like. They quite simply threw men at the problem with no regard to casualties, similar to the Russians in WW2.

alot of young iranians died. But it was one of the few tactics they could use on certain fronts. Much like the Russians. Except the Iranians didnt have the Lend Lease scheme or supplies coming in from alliies. Those men who died are considered heroes in Iran in the same was as Master at Arms Monsoor who got the CMoH recently.

So yeah, if creating suicide brigades, scaring the crap out of the Iraqis to a point they thought Iran was bat guano crazy, thats certainly an achievement. Not what I would call sound military doctrine, but its par the course for them.
everyone (including Don Rumsfeld who provided satellite info on Iranian concentrations to the Iraqis which used them to direct fire of conventional AND non-convential munitions) thought it was going to be a pushover in light of the recent events and lack of organisation of the Iranians. That kinda military doctrine has evolved into doctrine used by the Mahdi Army and Hezbollah to great effect. Not saying the training of non state actors is good, but certainly effective

Again, Iran had the table set for them in Iraq. They did nothing special politically nor militarily.

The embedding of Iranian intelligence assets in the executive and legislature is pretty smart. The (alleged) arming and tieing down of US forces in Iraq may have singularliy derailed the neo-con project and the Bush Doctrine of Regime Change. The substantial cost to equipment, men and treasury by this pretty unevolved insurgency is changed and stretched the military's attitude. The "axis of evil" speech and intel coming out of washington gave rise to the phrase "real men go to Tehran". The US was pretty much ready to take a right after Baghdad after the summer if 2003. The Iranians have held off and diminshed the support for US intervention in Iran. Iran saved their own assess and gained massively in Iraq (economically as well as politically). The US never ever thought the Iranians would be in this position in 2003.

The oil price spike (because of Iraq) has allowed Iran to more than double its GDP in 5 years. Its defiance to US pressure has made Tehran the darlings of the Arab street. Extra money has also allowed more funding and training of proxies to project power.

And they may even get to build that nuke they wanted.
 
Last edited:
alot of young iranians died. But it was one of the few tactics they could use on certain fronts. Much like the Russians. Except the Iranians didnt have the Lend Lease scheme or supplies coming in from alliies.

Exactly. To reduce the Iranians' actions in the Iran-Iraq War to "they used human wave tactics and that's dumb" is asinine and simplistic in the extreme.

The embedding of Iranian intelligence assets in the executive and legislature is pretty smart. The (alleged) arming and tieing down of US forces in Iraq may have singularliy derailed the neo-con project and the Bush Doctrine of Regime Change. The substantial cost to equipment, men and treasury by this pretty unevolved insurgency is changed and stretched the military's attitude. The "axis of evil" speech and intel coming out of washington gave rise to the phrase "real men go to Tehran". The US was pretty much ready to take a right after Baghdad after the summer if 2003. The Iranians have held off and diminshed the support for US intervention in Iran. Iran saved their own assess and gained massively in Iraq (economically as well as politically). The US never ever thought the Iranians would be in this position in 2003.

That's a good summary. Again, to claim that the US handed Iran their current influence in the region and Iran did nothing much to achieve it is total nonsense. Good to see someone on this thread has actually done some detailed reading on the subject and isn't just mouthing slogans and wishful thinking.
 
.

That's a good summary. Again, to claim that the US handed Iran their current influence in the region and Iran did nothing much to achieve it is total nonsense. Good to see someone on this thread has actually done some detailed reading on the subject and isn't just mouthing slogans and wishful thinking.

Wow. Thanks. Coming from you that fills with me confidence for my dissertation. The Iranians had a choice in 2003. Do a "Libya" or pretty much all the other Arab countries, and give in to US hegemony and dominance or stand firm and further the causes of their own country and people through often suprisingly confrontational stances on issues. So far, its seems to have paid off.
 
Wow. Thanks. Coming from you that fills with me confidence for my dissertation. The Iranians had a choice in 2003. Do a "Libya" or pretty much all the other Arab countries, and give in to US hegemony and dominance or stand firm and further the causes of their own country and people through often suprisingly confrontational stances on issues. So far, its seems to have paid off.

So far. But they would be wise to take advantage of any departure of the neo-cons and return to trying to reach some better rapproachment with the US if they want to cement their gains. Bush bungled badly (quelle surprise!) when he cut their post-911 overtures dead and lumped them into the "Axis of Evil". If the new administration is smart enough to open that door again they would be wise to go through it.
 
So far. But they would be wise to take advantage of any departure of the neo-cons and return to trying to reach some better rapproachment with the US if they want to cement their gains. Bush bungled badly (quelle surprise!) when he cut their post-911 overtures dead and lumped them into the "Axis of Evil". If the new administration is smart enough to open that door again they would be wise to go through it.

Absolutely right. I hope Iran doesnt waste this opportunity like some countries did in the 1970s. They have an extremely young population that will need jobs in the near future and they need to relax their media restrictions. An all powerful supreme leader theocrat being able to veto legislation troubles me too. Dissenting views can help a nation. The Iranians are riding a perfect storm (in their favour) which can only last for so long.

I believe Ahmadinejad is demonised in the West (such as his mistranslated "wipe Israel off the map" remark), but i dont think the West will do business with him because of his "defiance". 2009 (iranian pres elections) will be an interesting year for US-Iranian elections.
 
(i)(ii) religious fervor allowed them to hold off Iraq. Iran was in a bad way, then they marched their white robed countrymen into the desert and straight into a meat grinder. They threw men at the problem.

You are seriously wrong here. The Pasdaran massed "martyr" attacks was a
feature of the war when Iran was on the _offensive_. BTW most of those attacks took place in march and lake terrain - not the desert.

It was the Iranian regular armed forces who stopped the Iraqi invasion.

Within weeks of the Iraqi surprice attack - which included an attempt to take out the Iranian airforce on the ground, the Iranians were flying missions against targets in the Bagdad area which required refuelling over Iraqi territory.

Within months the Iranian airforce had developed lowflying tactics to effectively counter the Iraqi air defences.

If you think this was done by 14 years olds in martyr shrouds I think
you better reconsider.

Without the massed support behind Iraq from the US, USSR, Europe and the
Arab countries, the most likely result would have been that the Iranians had hanged Saddam at some time in the early 80's.

Wagnijo
 
Exactly. To reduce the Iranians' actions in the Iran-Iraq War to "they used human wave tactics and that's dumb" is asinine and simplistic in the extreme.
.

Care to elaborate on the combined arms tactics of the IIGF?
 
The embedding of Iranian intelligence assets in the executive and legislature is pretty smart. The (alleged) arming and tieing down of US forces in Iraq may have singularliy derailed the neo-con project and the Bush Doctrine of Regime Change. The substantial cost to equipment, men and treasury by this pretty unevolved insurgency is changed and stretched the military's attitude. The "axis of evil" speech and intel coming out of washington gave rise to the phrase "real men go to Tehran". The US was pretty much ready to take a right after Baghdad after the summer if 2003. The Iranians have held off and diminshed the support for US intervention in Iran. Iran saved their own assess and gained massively in Iraq (economically as well as politically). The US never ever thought the Iranians would be in this position in 2003.

The oil price spike (because of Iraq) has allowed Iran to more than double its GDP in 5 years. Its defiance to US pressure has made Tehran the darlings of the Arab street. Extra money has also allowed more funding and training of proxies to project power.

And they may even get to build that nuke they wanted.

The West could deal with Iran without stepping foot on their soil. Lets face it, the only reason Iran is allowed to build centrifuges and enrich uranium is because the world is full of bleeding heart liberals and apologists of an Iranian government who has an unbelievable amount of blood on its hands. Nobody in the region, not one of their neighbors, wants Iran to become a nuclear power, thats quite telling.

The price of crude is actually not affected much by Iraq. The real market woes began in the late 90's. The market trends we see now were set in stone long before Iraq.

Iran is slowly choking to death. They don't have the refineries to sustain profit. In other words, its a short boom, everyone knows that.

To the laymen, yes Iran might have appeared to improve its image. No country in the world truly trusts Iran though. Even the Syrians are wary of them because of their tactics in Lebanon. The Muslim world might rally to Iran because they puff out their chests once and awhile, but thats fairly common in the Muslim world, often short lived, and there isn't much behind the showing of support.

The insurgency has many faces, so to give Iran credit for the insurgency as a whole doesn't make sense. Some of the same people advising me not to underestimate Iran were just last year sticking to the absurd claim that Iran didn't have a hand in Iraq at all.

I think its fairly obvious to see that Iran hasn't done anything more than fuel the flames. This is nothing new. Insurgencies go back thousands of years. In this case, Iran didn't even organize it, they came in once the lines were drawn with money and third world expertise in explosives. They came in with the intent to make the US' life miserable, at the cost of fellow Muslims, whether Arab or not.


The Pasdaran massed "martyr" attacks was a
feature of the war when Iran was on the offensive

Iran climbed out of their trenches once the brigades made an impact. Before that it was trench warfare, reminiscent more of turn of the century warfare than anything considered modern or cohesive strategy.

In any US military tank school part of the curriculum, is on the Iran-Iraq war. How the Iraqi Armored Corps was led by generals who made some of the most monumental blunders in history. They squandered a force in size and power the world had only seen one other time before. Their blunders saved Iran from having to fight for control of Tehran, quite literally.

The support Iraq received from the West came late. Its part of war though, allies will come to your aid, Iran has none, what does that tell you? If the West really wanted Iraq to march into Tehran it would have happened.
 
Last edited:
Iran climbed out of their trenches once the brigades made an impact. Before that it was trench warfare, reminiscent more of turn of the century warfare than anything considered modern or cohesive strategy..

I suggest you sit down and think it over yourself instead of just repeating braindead propaganda.

Now do you really believe that the Iraqi tanks in perhaps the largest armoured attack since WWII - no matter how badly led - was stopped by teenagers, old men and handicapped with the Koran in one hand and maybe an old rifle or grenade in the other hand?

Most other people think that these attacks with very few exeptions was a senseless slaughter without realistic purposes.

What happened was that the Iranian regular army which had lost most of its
leading officers in purges after the revolution was taken by surprice, but
quickly rallied and started to promote capable junior officers on the battlefield who often had recieved their education in either the US or Europe.

Oddly the new proffessional Iranian generals were somewhat better at the job than Saddams extended family.


In any US military tank school part of the curriculum, is on the Iran-Iraq war. How the Iraqi Armored Corps was led by generals who made some of the most monumental blunders in history. They squandered a force in size and power the world had only seen one other time before. Their blunders saved Iran from having to fight for control of Tehran, quite literally...


Other people tend to think that maybe the Iranian army had a hand
in the outcome as well:

"Operation Undeniable Victory also known as Operation Fath-ol-Mobeen was an Iranian operation conducted during the Iran-Iraq War, in March 1982. Some believe that this operation was the turning point in the war[1] and that it was this operation that led to the eviction of Iraqi troops from Khuzestan, as this was Iran's first major victory and because the strategic initiative shifted from Iraq to Iran; Others (including Efraim Karsh) believe it was actually the operation working in tandem with others which led to the expulsion of Iraqi troops from southern Iran. They believe that in fact, Operation Jerusalem, which lasted from April to May 1982, had the greatest effect, because the Iranians were able to capture the strategically important city of Khorramshahr. The Iraqis suffered much greater casualties than the Iranians, because the Iranian attack did not fully involve the unsupported frontal assaults made by the Pasdaran which would be associated with Iranian attacks during the attempts to conquer Iraqi territory; the Iranian forces still had to contend with an Iraqi army which was entrenched on the front-line; and they enjoyed a good amount of tank, artillery and aerial support. In the operation, the Iranians were able to encircle Iraqi forces around the town of Shush. In a week, the Iranians were able to destroy three divisions and win the battle."

from wiki


The support Iraq received from the West came late. Its part of war though, allies will come to your aid, Iran has none, what does that tell you? If the West really wanted Iraq to march into Tehran it would have happened.

Oh Boy!

Saddam was supported by the US, USSR, Europe and was bankrolled
by the arabs exactly because none of the above wanted the islamic revolution to be exported to Iraq by force.

Why do you think Saddam was allowed to use poisoned gas against the Iranian forces without consequences?

Wagnijo
 

Site News

Thread Statistics

Created
Heinz Guderian,
Last reply from
Wagnijo,
Replies
25
Views
1,606

Site Polls

  • Axis & Allies

  • Battleship

  • Checkers

  • Chess

  • Clue

  • Go

  • Monopoly

  • Risk

  • Stratego

  • Other


Results are only viewable after voting.
Back
Top Bottom