Curial Commentary Thread (start May 2018)

[Pontifex Maximus]

Jesus christ...

 

[Flinn]

if you vote against the election of a consul being the only candidate it is because you believe that he cannot fulfill his functions at all because he is inept or a person who would abuse his position, something too serious (relatively speaking of course) to leave it in a mere "vote against" in an election. Speak up. You don't have to be a bloodthirsty hysteric like me, you can raise your objections in a very reasonable and polite post.

Personal grudges might also come in the way. We are humans after all.

 

[Flinn]

Onto a more pressing matter!

2022 Member awards are live!.

Under the Great Law for Recognition of Awesomeness, you, each of you, have to feel obliged to go and nominate your favorite members.. you don't want to piss off the TechnoSilvio, do you?

 

[Flinn]

Onto a more pressing matter!

2022 Member awards are live!.

Under the Great Law for Recognition of Awesomeness, you, each of you, have to feel obliged to go and nominate your favorite members.. you don't want to piss off the TechnoSilvio, do you?

Bump! Nominations will close on the 10th.

As I'm here.. I'm taking a few days break, I should be back on the 11th. Everything is set up and running, Curia-wise.

 

[Flinn]

And here we are fellas, The new Constitution of TWC Amendment is up.

Let me remind you that all the members, and not only Citizens, are allowed and (particularly in this case) invited to partake in the discussions taking place in the Prothalamos.

 

[Flinn]

Annndddddd we are live!

2022 Member Awards polls are up!

Go vote for your favorite fellow TWcenterers

 

[Flinn]

Bumping time

Applications for the Consul election are still open, and will be so until the 26th. Click here if you are interested. Also, if you have anything to ask to the candidate(s), just use the Commentary.

The latest Curial amendment, the new Constitution of TWC is still up; as usual let me remind you that every member, and not just Citizens, cans post and comment in the Prothalamos.

 

[Flinn]

The latest Curial amendment, the new Constitution of TWC is still up; as usual let me remind you that every member, and not just Citizens, cans post and comment in the Prothalamos.

The latest amendment has passed

The new Constitution of TWC.

 

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

Brigadier Graham will be making another triumphant return soon.

Very good news.

 

[PikeStance]

You might have missed this!.

Let me remember all of you that anyone can post in the Prothalamos, and while only Citizens's supports to a motion (in this case a Large Award) will count toward the minimum of 3 for it to be allowed to be moved to vote, every member can comment and support or oppos.....

Ps I'll post my comments on the award probably tomorrow or more likely early next week

If I had been around at the time, I would have voted in support.

The site seems less active than ever,.. down to four moderators. I take it GED is still absent.

 

[Flinn]

If I had been around at the time, I would have voted in support.

The site seems less active than ever,.. down to four moderators. I take it GED is still absent.

No one has seen him online since July 2021. Previous to that (4-5 years) he's been online only once every year or so, that I can recall ATL.

 

[Flinn]

Akar will never back stab me (for free)

Anyways, by the time I will be back, my 3rd term will be close to be over, and I don't plan to apply for a 4th, honestly. I'll offer my help as a Censor (atl temporarily) to anyone who wants to give it a try, in particular if they are new to the job.

Mishkin, you are a mean dude

 

[Dismounted Feudal Knight]

I will arrange to dump 327 infraction points at his doorstep, that should be enough to wipe his profile bit clean.

 

[Dismounted Feudal Knight]

All to catch him off guard I assure you.

 

[Flinn]

Giving him an award is like the exact opposite of what I was talking about, thank you.

I foresee at least a minimum of fuss in the curia, congratulations (and congratulations Flinn for the medal).

 

[Sir Adrian]

You have to be a citizen to VoNC someone.

 

[Flinn]

You have to give a ### to VoNC someone. Seriously I can't imagine what atrocity he could attempt to make me care enough to try to construct half a paragraph.

I once put pineapple on Pizza

 

[makanyane]

I once put pineapple on Pizza

That's not a VoNC offence - that's a removal of citizenship* offence






*Italian citizenship

 

[Flinn]

I'll take an ostrakon over what my fellow compatriots would do to me... people have been put on the chopping block for similar offences!

But someone has done worse

Spoiler: do not open if you have a weak stomach!

 

[Flinn]

I was very drunk.

Since I've been infracted already (10 points) for posting the pizza with Kiwi, I'm moving forward and post what's probably the worst one ever

Spoiler: pizza with banana and curry

I was expecting better from you, Sweden

Truth be told, people put everything on pizza, even steel bolts. I can see why americans like the pineapple one, with their constant abuse of sugars.. it's not really worse than the marshmallow one, not really. If I really want to go sweet, I'll have a Spaccata alla Nutella.

Spoiler

On the positive side, Finland made a Berlusconi Pizza

Spoiler

It even won the America's Plate International in 2008. Thank you Finland for proving him right.

 

[Flinn]

Dammit Akar, ATL quote the latest version of the Constitution

ARTICLE III – RESOLUTIONS

Any member can propose a resolution by posting a thread in the Prothalmos. Any Prothalmos threads can be archived by the Consul if they are not posted in for twenty eight days.

Resolutions can be Amendments, making changes to this document; Decisions, suggesting changes to the site; Nominations, proposing a member for a Curial award; or Votes of No Confidence (VoNC) against Curial Officers or Staff Members. A VoNC may only be initiated for neglect of duty or abuse of authority and, if successful against a Curial Officer, results in their immediate removal from office; frivolous use of the VonC procedure shall be considered grounds for Curial disciplinary proceedings as per Section III -Article I (Ostrakones). Any Curial Officer subject to a successful VoNC, or who resigns during the VoNC process, may not run in the replacement or full election for the next open seat of the same position.

For being moved to vote the latest version of a Resolution requires at least three Citizens to post in its Prothalamos thread indicating their support. The latest version of the Resolution must be debated for at least three days in the Prothalamos before the proposer can request it be moved to vote.

All Resolutions are voted on at the proposer's request and pass on the basis of a two-thirds majority of non-abstaining votes in favor. If any Resolution fails a vote, no re-vote on a substantially similar Resolution will be permitted within twenty-eight days. All Amendments and Decisions are considered to have immediate effect and no retroactive effect unless specifically stated otherwise.

When a Resolution is moved to vote, the Prothalamos thread is left open and the Consul posts the latest version of the resolution, and a link to its Prothalamos thread, as a new poll in the Curia Vote forum. Votes on resolutions last seven (7) days. Subsequent posts in this thread are limited to the notification of having voted.

[*SNIP*]

 

[Sir Adrian]

Wait, what? The pregrinii can vote out members of the CdeC. PROPOSTEROUS!!!

but clearly you've never spent that much time with the document.

The irony is thick here.

 

[Flinn]

If you really ask my opinion, that should probably be looked into. I mean, Vonc per sé is a strictly Curial procedure (while ATL Decisions and Awards are site wide) and therefore it makes sense to put it under those things exclusive to citizens.. but actually VonCs are so rare (and any new is unlikely to be posted unless a Consul goes full crazy or MIA), that it doesn't really matter who posts them, to begin with.

That being said, why aren't we talking about pizza anymore?

 

[PikeStance]

The real error is having non-citizens to make resolutions and the drift to incredibly "high standard" content creation for citizenship rather than a focus on adherence to the ToS and attitude the promote good posting. A member that simply post regularly increases their stake in the site.

The current constitution is nothing more than a discombobulated "scissor cut up" of a very simple concept.

 

[Flinn]

and whoever posts it, it requires the initial approval of the consul (or their assistant if the vote is towards the consul, right?)

Now, that is controversial. Censores are not elected positions anymore, and they are bound to the office of Consul in the sense that it's the Consul who picks them and no one can literally do anything to force the Consul in that regard (while of course they remain responsible for what wrong their picked Censores can do, basically abuse of power). That means that, in reality, any Censor does not have the real authority (as in "set forth by the Constitution") to recuse any VonC directed towards the Consul or themselves* (*at this regard, a VonC against a Censor does not make sense, as them not being elected means they are not real officers and thus any complaint about their wrongdoings should be directed and charged to the Consul).

Yes, this creates a lot of confusion, but it's no one fault's specifically, it's just that when Citizens Referrals were removed, Censores should have been removed and the actual positions simply renamed into Consul Assistant. But that won't change the fact that there's a hole in the legislation about VonC, atl for what concerns those directed towards the Consul.
Let's make a concrete example: Citizen A posts a Vonc against Consul B, who of course cannot recuse it, since it would clearly be a conflict of interest and abuse of power; Censores C and D could not recuse it either, as, first, they do not have the authority (not being elected) and second, being picked directly by the Consul, they could be easily accused of favoritism.
The other elected Curial office, the Magistrate, could be called in to confirm or reject any VonC directed towards the Consul, but again this is not ideal as: first, it's not stated anywhere in the Constitution and second, the Magistrates are expected to be experts on the ToS, not on the Curial procedures and duties (which are the base upon which a VonC is based).

The case is different if the VonC is directed at a Magistrate or a Staffer, in this case the Consul has the full authority to confirm or reject those.

and the support of a minimum of citizens to be put to the vote.

Indeed and that is the only real barrier actually present in the Constitution itself that could prevent any frivolous or procedural incorrect Vonc to reach the voting phase.

 

[Flinn]

the search for perfection in the constitution/the curia, a disease from which we will never be free.

Indeed. I forgot to close my reply above with the obvious statement that in practical terms all I posted about is almost irrelevant, or, better to say, very unlikely to have any practical relevance.

I also forgot to mention the fact that, in the case of a Consul clearly abusing their powers and closing justified VonCs against them, the way to go is to notify the Hex (or atl that's what I would be doing).

Isn't this a matter for administrators and tribunes (in the case of magistrates)? Certainly if a user knows better than the tribunes or hexes the faults committed by one of their staffers, there is something very strange there.

The Tribunes can terminate any Magistrate they deem unfitted for the position, without the need of any vote or Curial approval. But at the same time anyone can rise a Vonc against a Magistrate and if that's successful*, they will be removed from the position and a new election has to be put up.
*Now I see it very complex to put up a non-frivolous VonC against a Magistrate, abuse of power is basically impossible (and hardly demonstrable as their work is carried out behind closed doors), while neglect of duty is probably going to be addressed directly by the Tribunes themselves.

As per VonCing a Staffer (which includes Tribunes), that is intended as a "suggestion" to the Hex to seriously consider the removal of the VonCed staffer. I say suggestion because the Hex is in no way obliged to comply with anything the Curia comes out with, as all they have to do is Veto the VonC (or any other resolution positively voted in the Curia). Truth be told I don't remember a case of any Vonced staffer, Ponti's Voncs towards the missing tribunes didn't need to be carried on, as they served the purpose by making the Hex aware of the problem, who in turn solved it by appointing two new Tribunes; so, those staffer VonCs might have their usefulness, when they are effectively used to signal Hex a real issue, rather than as an instrument of personal vendetta.

That being said, I concur that all of this might result very boring, but that's the nature of the Curia and while I don't find it particularly entertaining myself, I have to say that once you decide to get involved in it, the best you can do is to try to understand what you are dealing with, and that's not impossible: it needs time (I've been serving for over 30 months in various positions) and you, literally, need to "do stuff" and learn from you mistakes.. as of today I'm totally confident about anything Curial related and, truth be told, that's not that complex as long as you break it down to essential elements.

 

[PikeStance]

non-citizens cannot "make resolutions" (quoting you), they can, like citizens, "propose a resolution" (quoting the constitution that you are supposed to know, since you intend to be a consul and have a very formed opinion of it). I hope this was a simple lapse and not a malicious lie to alert the most classist citizens.

In any case, and continuing with Flinn's argument, there is no cause for concern, some individual is not going to appear out of nowhere to present a VoNC and alll of us here, citizens or not, have the same rough ideas of what a VoNC is, what is expected of a consul and how to begin the process. (the last part is sarcasm; you can spend years wandering through amendments, voting and even holding office and not have clear basic ideas)

I never stated that non-citizens couldn't. I said they shouldn't. A big difference.

The real error is having non-citizens to make resolutions....

Inspired by this I was about to make a proposal, that the recipients of the milestone award would automatically have the possibility of receiving citizenship if they so desired (and the moderation said that everything was in order). Then I saw some names on the list of people who have received the award and I thought "My god, that guy in the curia?" And then I thought "is that guy worse than this other guy who has even held important positions?" So, I think there I go.

This is why originally, it had more to do with "good posting" in the beginning. Over time it became so bloated by "doing this and doing that" that attitude and behavior became less than an issue. It almost became ironic that modders received a special badge to encourage promoting them to citizenship because they were being left out. By the time of the fall, it was far easier to get modder citizenship than anyone contributing in other areas of the forum. People who created good posts did manage to get through but you definitely saw the criticism. When it comes to "debaters" people seem to like the guy if they politically agree with them. Then again, when it comes to online political debates, people are jaded. it is like a hyperbole feast. The Curia has also been plagued by this very phenomenon.

I don't think there is a position on the site that has a huge importance. This site have not been "innovative" in any way in decades. It lacks leadership that can actually do anything noteworthy. Without an owner, there is very little of consequence that can be done. The best the admin can do his old down a crumbling fort. Ironically, the Curia and admin fought over stakeholdeship that essentially evaporated to little or nothing. As they said, the smaller the piece of pie, the vicious the fighting. There was no shortage of that.

 

[PikeStance]

You said that non-citizens can make resolutions:

Non-citizens can make suggestions in the prothalamos, they cannot make a resolution at all, they cant do anything in the curia without the approval of the citizens. If you want to say that non-citizens should not be allowed to make proposals in the prothalamos just say it. It's not any drama

Resolution is a generic term that includes proposals.

Resolutions can be Amendments, making changes to this document; Decisions, suggesting changes to the site; Nominations, proposing a member for a Curial award; or Votes of No Confidence (VoNC) against Curial Officers or Staff Members.

My point is that any member who cares enough to make a proposal should already have contributed enough to be a citizen. The more exclusive the citizenry "club" became, the greater the drama. A vicious cycle occurred.

Exclusiveness was a direct result of the patron system. The minute you created a system where one citizen proposed another member for citizenship it would inevitably lead to unreasonable standards. It made sense at the time; a growing site in which a small cadre would faced a daunting task of identifying worthy members. Anyway, the point is we wouldn't need members to make proposals if the system was more open as intended.

 

[Flinn]

For the sake of clarity.

ANY member can post a Resolution (Nominations, Amendments, Decisions, VonCs) and Discussions. Resolutions can only be moved to vote (at the exclusive request of the original poster) if they have received a minimum of 3 supports from actual Citizens*. Besides, only Citizens can vote on Resolutions.

So as a matter of fact, the only difference between, a non-citizen and a Citizen, when it comes to Resolutions, is that non-citizens cannot vote in them (because of course a Citizen own support for their proposed Resolutions do not count towards the 3 supports threshold).

edit: * there are other conditions of course, but for the purpose of the discussion at hand, that's the only relevant one.

 

[PikeStance]

So what?


You shouldn't worry about who launches a proposal, what group they belong to, but whether the proposal is interesting, if it can be beneficial for the curia or not.

Is there a problem of non-citizens making proposals or participating in the prothalamus, Pike? ...

Interesting,.. I answered the question in the very portion you quoted.

My point is that any member who cares enough to make a proposal should already have contributed enough to be a citizen.

The primary purpose of citizenship is to make good posts. (Represent the site well, thus the badge)
The secondary purpose is to propose ideas for the betterment of the site.
The tertiary purpose is to sponsor members who, through the creation of content, demonstrated a consistent good posting.

If the site had maintained these three basic principles of purpose and followed a policy of inclusion rather than exclusion, then this would be an unnecessary discussion.