Hypaspists or Shield Bearers?

[Sharpe]

Re: Hypaspists or Shield Bearers? - Answer

Hell does anyone outside these forums know!? Except scholars of course.

 

[Modestus]

Re: Hypaspists or Shield Bearers? - Answer

Any amateur historian would know that a lot of the labels ascribed to ancient warfare - the kind of labels that people here so greatly want - are made up (mostly by modern era European historians). If we went with actual sort-of-historical names, most Greek units would be unpronounceable (unless you speak Greek) mangles of letters, and most Parthian/Celtic/Germanic units would be worse. This entire pointless debate reminds me of the people who wanted the voice acting to be recorded in ancient languages, despite the fact most of said languages are dead.

We can imagine that for an ancient Greek Shield Bearer means honour and glory but for us it is the word Hypaspist that has those connotations, what label is Shield Bearer to us when compared to the the label of Hypaspist.

 

[Stavroforos]

Re: Hypaspists or Shield Bearers? - Answer

But you think that the majority of the Greek population knows what the the hypaspist is?

Well, a lot of them will know what an anthipaspistis is

But in any case, my original point is that CA have a much better idea of how to label their units based on the audience they're targeting, since they have to actually make money out of this. Whether that means that we get hypaspists or shield bearers I don't know or care.

 

[torongill]

Re: Hypaspists or Shield Bearers? - Answer

Your explanation is good and all but how does this make the use of "Shield Bearer" any better ? Especially when it has been explained than "Shield Bearer was used in place of "Hypaspists" while "Royal Pestasts" was also announced in the next Exclusive content updated.

I don't think there is any need to "confuse the issue" tongue. Even if I partially agree on your point.

I don't have an answer to that, except to point out that it says "based on the the hypaspists of Alexander and the laters successor armies." In the later successor armies they were called Agema and Peltastas, or so we know. But supposedly they had the same function and equipment as the Hypaspists of Alexander. And if Royal Peltastas is used for another unit, it will give credence to the idea that CA don't want to have multiple units with the same name, especially elite units. But first I would like to see what the Royal Peltastas are.

Your use of modern exemples remind me that in the napoleonic and post napoleonic french army, light infantry were often used to lead assaults on strong positions...
A role that should have been devoted to the "elite" grenadiers in theory (and would have been earlier), because light infantry were more trained than line infantry (to be able to perform both as sharpshooters/skirmishers and as line inf) and because the men were selected not for their sizes (like in grenadiers units) but for their wit, boldness and independent thinking.
That created an esprit de corps and an attitude similar to that of elite units.
That and their polyvalence (well actually line infantry could also fight as light inf, but that's beside the point) means they came to be used like elite units would (even though most weren't especially elite).

I wonder if something similar wasn't at work there.

The royal guard/elite could have been called peltasts for the same reasons.
Iirc one characteristic of the hypaspists is that Alexander made them fight lightly equiped on some occasions, wich would point toward troops able to fight both as heavy infantry (wich shield and spear) and as light infantry to provide mobility and assault troops in difficult ground.

Now, soldiers trained to fight both as light and heavy infantry point toward good troops, picked troops. They need the discipline and caution of heavy infantry and be able of bold and quick move, thinking independently, like light troops in open order.

Maybe that's that double use and training that led to the use of the term "peltasts" to distinguish them from (basic) heavy infantry.

Also, nowaday we often view heavily armored troops as the ultimate elite, because of the cost and protection, but many light infantry and skirmishers were considered as "elite" back then. Alexander's Agrianian for exemple.

That's my point as well - that the elite Peltastas may have been equipped as heavy-ish infantry, but due to their endurance, stamina and mobility(as well as fighting prowess) they could have been called "Peltastas" and would have been used for a variety of tasks, from assault, through flank protection, to connection between the Companions and the Phalanx, the hammer behind the chisel point that were the Companions. "First unto the breach, last off the field. Always brave, always loyal."

@Manuel, I like your theory, since that means the elite units were versatile. Actually the description of Pydna by Livius supports it, he basically wrote that the Peltastas decimated the Paeglini and how that's evidence that you don't go head-on against pikes. I personally don't like using Livy, because to me Polybios he sometimes looks like the difference between the Daily Mail and the Guardian

 

[Manuel I Komnenos]

Re: Hypaspists or Shield Bearers? - Answer

But in any case, my original point is that CA have a much better idea of how to label their units based on the audience they're targeting, since they have to actually make money out of this. Whether that means that we get hypaspists or shield bearers I don't know or care.

I guess they do. But still, I don't think that the argument "we don't want to confuse our fans" can stand. We aren't talking about native unit names here, we are talking about a term which is widely accepted and used by English academics who've dealt with the historical period in which the game takes place. And what if the game is educational? Knowledge doesn't hurt even when it comes from games. And yes, it is a minor issue. Nobody (I hope) is losing his sleep for the term nor will anybody choose not to buy the game because of this.

 

[EmperorBatman999]

Re: Hypaspists or Shield Bearers? - Answer

We can probably edit a localization file if the name bothers us enough.

 

[vietanh797]

Re: Hypaspists or Shield Bearers? - Answer

I can see a new DLC
Historical unit's name

 

[Tzar]

Re: Hypaspists or Shield Bearers? - Answer

We can probably edit a localization file if the name bothers us enough.

We don't know that.


If CA provides us with tools to mod R2 to the same (or similar) level we were able to mod R1 we will not have this discussion. But with the new engine they are talking about, R2 will be most likely even less moddable then Shogun 2.

 

[torongill]

Re: Hypaspists or Shield Bearers? - Answer

We don't know that.


If CA provides us with tools to mod R2 to the same (or similar) level we were able to mod R1 we will not have this discussion. But with the new engine they are talking about, R2 will be most likely even less moddable then Shogun 2.

Didn't they release a whole pack of mod tools for Shogun 2? Wasn't the PFM updated to be able to work with Shogun 2 packs?

 

[Delyon]

Re: Hypaspists or Shield Bearers? - Answer

OMFG Are you people serious??!?!?!? ITS A ING GAME

 

[torongill]

Re: Hypaspists or Shield Bearers? - Answer

OMFG Are you people serious??!?!?!? ITS A ING GAME

Welcome to the Rome 2 forum. We have straitjackets. Also ECT and Happy Pills. The Happy pills are optional. ECT isn't.

 

[Mr. Shaboobies]

Re: Hypaspists or Shield Bearers? - Answer

Wow, 18 pages on one name that literally doesn't change anything either way. I could understand if they were going to call Rome, Carthage or London, because those names actually mean something and are of value to the players. You never cease to amaze me the anal retentive "historians" of TWC. Can we all agree its a game and the makers of the game are going to call something what they want in order to make sure they get the most amount of money for their work. CA is a company, and last time I checked companies need to make money, which means embracing and pandering to all sides of their market. From the few pages I read into this thread I noticed multiple posts from employees of CA, which means they obviously care about this crazy portion of their fan base, but we don't get to decide everything.

 

[vietanh797]

Re: Hypaspists or Shield Bearers? - Answer

The problem is units' name not decide by them but by someone else

 

[Raimeken]

Re: Hypaspists or Shield Bearers? - Answer

OMFG Are you people serious??!?!?!? ITS A ING GAME

Its a fairly niche game with a following of some pretty hardcore history "geeks" (no offense). I see no problem with it however, since it should be easy enough to rename units. In the end, gameplay between Hypaspists and Shield Bearers will be no different.

 

[jazstl]

Re: Hypaspists or Shield Bearers? - Answer

The name is just for a feel of the project... We obviously have 2 groups here on forum
A) those intereted in ancient history (or history in gneral) and
B) those playng TW mostly for fun (who do not care to learn by playing)

The CA was in a difficult position chosing the formulation for the names, i am sure, finnaly stopping in the middle ground (not the best option IMHO)
Things I would do in their shoes,
A) Dual names like (Triarii-heavy spearman)
B) Tick box choosing between Authentic names or easy names in english.

Wish we were lucky enough ot get theese.

 

[AngryTitusPullo]

Re: Hypaspists or Shield Bearers? - Answer

So what does the name will be in German, French and Russian version of the game ? Shield Bearer too or what ?

 

[KLAssurbanipal]

Re: Hypaspists or Shield Bearers? - Answer

Or do you want to go around in the streets of London or NYC asking people what a hypaspist is?

So, asking people inthe streets of NYC or London what a cataphract, triarii, principes are? The same example...

People will learn what is a hypaspist, like they learned what is a hoplite.
Some people know 'Hypaspists' from:
1) interest in history;
2) the game Rome Total War Alexander
3) mods like Europa Barbarorum, Roma Surrectum 2, Rome Total Realism VII etc.
4) other games (like Age of Empires, Age of Mythology).
5) others (the majority) don't know, but what a problem to learn? The game can also be a good science story beyond entertainment.

Players who don'tt know the word is simply to teach them. Do not take people as idiots.
The word is easy to learn. 'A Cataphract' word is in Rome 2 TW and is easy to use as word 'a hypaspist'. These are the English versions (A Cataphract/Cataphracts, A Hypaspist/Hypaspists) of Greek words (Hypaspistai, Kataphraktoi). "Shield Bearers" is only the literally meaning of 'hypaspistai', like "armored" is literally the original meaning of 'katafraktoi).
Write in google "Shield Bearers" and you will see only screenshots of CA. Enter 'hypaspist' and you will see that the results will be much more. Always, always 'a hypaspist' word is used in the books by the authors in English. I never knew anyone used the meaning of the word (shield bearers) as a name.
The following opinions of players who don't know the word 'hypaspist', but they see that the unit will be unique with English name 'a hypaspist'.

Some players quotes:

So, shield bearers are soldiers who carry shield. Hoplites for me, or peltasts, or 70% of RTW units. Hypaspists have flavor as a name. There will be face expressions and bigger "personal level" in R2 so I am supposed to zoom in on my units. Which will be men with big shields and swords, and short spears, heavily decorated and looking generaly "elite". I can connect that image with the name of Hypaspist. If not, I have unit card, or symbols, or google. 100% of future R2 players can do this. There will be other units, which will need translation, why start with the unit which is generally known.

Dont know why them cant use hypaspist as a name for the unit, when i fist played Total War rome, i didn't know anything about rome troops or rome warfare, i just know there are legions and hoplites. But after i start playng i was slowly learning about these diferent troops, even just conecting the name with the "function" and weapons they use. Like triarii the guys with lances of rome, or the phanlax the guys with big lances from macedon.

I know, that its wrong to think this way, i still dont know much about rome warfare, but whem someone say about triarii or principes i altomatic remenber this guys and their weapons and etc.

So my point is if there is a fk unit named hypaspist in the game it will not hurt anything for newcomers, it will actualy be good. As i can remenber about the, cohorts, the legions, triarii, etc Because they have a diferent historically name, not just a dumb traslation like "Shield Bearers". Hell i dont remenber the name of any units of the barbarians bacause they have names that acutually discribe what they do. I know they have swords, named guys with swords, and lances named guys with lances. If i see the hypaspist in the game, and see they using shilds i will know, "oh the hypaspists, the guys with shilds from macedon". I dont need CA to have to name a unit with a thing so obivious to me, to be able to remenber about them and what they do. Jesus

Please, CA you are not selling your games to underage kids because they will not have fun with it, this is a mature game. So treat your customers maturely
And yeah sorry for the bad english...

 

[SirFork]

Re: Hypaspists or Shield Bearers? - Answer

I do understand Jack Lusted statement but "Shield-Bearers", imho, is really ugly...

What about a solution like this:

Hypaspists-(shield bearers) ?

 

[KLAssurbanipal]

Re: Hypaspists or Shield Bearers? - Answer

Or Hypaspists 'Shield Bearers'.

 

[Stavroforos]

Re: Hypaspists or Shield Bearers? - Answer

Or just "Shield Bearers." Maybe call them "Royal Shield Bearers" to make them sound more elite.

 

[SirFork]

Re: Hypaspists or Shield Bearers? - Answer

I think that the double name (in some cases) could be the solution, this way you can really please the casual players and the "veteran" ones.

 

[Stavroforos]

Re: Hypaspists or Shield Bearers? - Answer

No, double name is too long. It's either one or the other.

 

[Modestus]

Re: Hypaspists or Shield Bearers? - Answer

So what does the name will be in German, French and Russian version of the game ? Shield Bearer too or what ?

Wondered about that myself for all I know Shield Bearer in Russian maybe a condom.

 

[SirFork]

Re: Hypaspists or Shield Bearers? - Answer

I don't really think that the difference in terms of lenght among Hypaspists- Shield Bearers and Royal Shield Bearers is that big.

 

[General Nuisance esq]

Re: Hypaspists or Shield Bearers? - Answer

Wow, 18 pages on one name that literally doesn't change anything either way. I could understand if they were going to call Rome, Carthage or London, because those names actually mean something and are of value to the players. You never cease to amaze me the anal retentive "historians" of TWC. Can we all agree its a game and the makers of the game are going to call something what they want in order to make sure they get the most amount of money for their work. CA is a company, and last time I checked companies need to make money, which means embracing and pandering to all sides of their market. From the few pages I read into this thread I noticed multiple posts from employees of CA, which means they obviously care about this crazy portion of their fan base, but we don't get to decide everything.

It worries me that sometimes these sort of people may actually influence things
I remember RTW the first edition where you could quite easily and cheaply bribe rebel units, twas fun, however after complaints on here about how expensive "historically" it would have been the bribe thing got changed to be ridiculously expensive .......bit of a shame
As a suggestion from me maybe we could have a historical accuracy DLC that would cost around £50 and take about 3 days to download but it would give you a special historical accuracy mode which as soon as you engaged would give you an immediate CTD

 

[KLAssurbanipal]

Re: Hypaspists or Shield Bearers? - Answer

Or just "Shield Bearers." Maybe call them "Royal Shield Bearers" to make them sound more elite.

So please, use "Armored Cavalry" as Parthian cataphract's name...

What is your arguments of this point? I see that your argument are two points: 1) CA said "they are "shield bearers'; 2) Players are idiots, so 'Hypaspist' is difficult to learn... You don't have any arguments.

You ignored my and other members logical arguments.

P.S. You have the most posts in this thread. More then other users.

 

[Stavroforos]

Re: Hypaspists or Shield Bearers? - Answer

So please, use "Armored Cavalry" as Parthian cataphract's name...

What is your arguments of this point? You don't have any arguments.
You ignored my and other members logical arguments.

P.S. You have the most posts in this thread. More then other users.

No, my argument is that we don't all want to see R2TW become EBII. If you and all the other people obsessed with units and unit names from antiquity want to see Hippeis Xystophoroi and Sphendonetai Rhodioi, you can simply play EB or mod R2TW. For the rest of us who don't share your obsession, Shield Bearers is fine.

 

[KLAssurbanipal]

Re: Hypaspists or Shield Bearers? - Answer

No, my argument is that we don't all want to see R2TW become EBII. If you and all the other people obsessed with units and unit names from antiquity want to see Hippeis Xystophoroi and Sphendonetai Rhodioi, you can simply play EB or mod R2TW. For the rest of us who don't share your obsession, Shield Bearers is fine.

Did you ignored my all posts? Hypaspist isn't antiquity name! It is English name (or Anglicization if you want).
That's same rule as 'cataphract', 'hoplite' names. These names are in game, but why hypaspists not?

Authors of books and designers of other games NEVER used 'shield bearers' as a name of this unit! 'Shield bearers' in only using by CA. CA used 'Shield bearers' as first.
I remember that CA used 'hypaspists' in RTW Alexander.

I said it many times:

Spoiler

1. A Cataphract (English) - Kataphraktoi (Greek)

The word in English is derived from the Greek: κατάφρακτος Kataphraktos (κατάφρακτοι Kataphraktoi), literally meaning "armored" or "completely enclosed".

2. A Hypaspist (English) - Hypaspistai (Greek)

The word in English is derived from the Greek: (Ὑπασπιστής Hypaspistai), literally meaning "shield bearer" or "shield covered".


If they add literally meaning 'shield bearers' to hypaspist's name, they should add literally meaning to catapahract's name (''armored'').

We will get Parthian elite unit: 'Armored Cavalry'.

Do you see the absurdity of this example, the names of 'shield bearers'?

P.S. This thread is your obsession. You have the most posts (more than other users), but any constructive arguments. You watch this thread by few hours per day...

 

[Modestus]

Re: Hypaspists or Shield Bearers? - Answer

It worries me that sometimes these sort of people may actually influence things
I remember RTW the first edition where you could quite easily and cheaply bribe rebel units, twas fun, however after complaints on here about how expensive "historically" it would have been the bribe thing got changed to be ridiculously expensive .......bit of a shame
As a suggestion from me maybe we could have a historical accuracy DLC that would cost around £50 and take about 3 days to download but it would give you a special historical accuracy mode which as soon as you engaged would give you an immediate CTD

Or how about change the name from Shield Bearers to Hypaspists because I presume your going to have to use it in the description anyhow.

Mind you if you wanted a bit of fun you could release a mod changing the name …....

…..... to Shield Covered.

 

[Stavroforos]

Re: Hypaspists or Shield Bearers? - Answer

Did you ignored my all posts? Hypaspist isn't antiquity name! It is English name (or Anglicization if you want).
That's same rule as 'cataphract', 'hoplite' names. These names are in game, but why hypaspists not?

Authors of books and designers of other games NEVER used 'shield bearers' as a name of this unit! 'Shield bearers' in only using by CA. CA used 'Shield bearers' as first.
I remember that CA used 'hypaspists' in RTW Alexander.

I said it many times:

Spoiler

1. A Cataphract (English) - Kataphraktoi (Greek)

The word in English is derived from the Greek: κατάφρακτος Kataphraktos (κατάφρακτοι Kataphraktoi), literally meaning "armored" or "completely enclosed".

2. A Hypaspist (English) - Hypaspistai (Greek)

The word in English is derived from the Greek: (Ὑπασπιστής Hypaspistai), literally meaning "shield bearer" or "shield covered".


If they add literally meaning 'shield bearers' to hypaspist's name, they should add literally meaning to catapahract's name (''armored'').

We will get Parthian elite unit: 'Armored Cavalry'.

Do you see the absurdity of this example, the names of 'shield bearers'?

P.S. This thread is your obsession. You have the most posts (more than other users), but any constructive arguments. You watch this thread by few hours per day...

So, you're saying that in order to be authentic, we should give Parthian units Greek names...?