Richest Faction

[moor1992]

Hey.

First I want to mention that I'm new on this forum and still unfamiliar with all the categories, so I'm posting my questions as a new topic. Please, move it to a correct thread, where it should be.

I just bought Medieval 2 Total War + Kingdoms and started playing yesterday as "Milan". I'm quiet familiar with Rome Total War, so I know the very basics of M2TW.

My question is, what faction is best to play for economics? I care more about making money, rather than constant conquering. I chose Milan, because it seems to be in a good position for earning huge amount of money. If I took over Venice right in the beginning and then Sicily, I would have pretty good income from sea trade. Am I right?

Which faction is fairly easy to play and get rich? I don't wanna jump into a deep water straight away, so I'd rather not play more challenging factions for my first time.

If anyone can give me advice which factions are the best for economy, I would really appreciate it. Little bit information about useful alliances (economy wise) for particular faction would be great too.

Thanks

 

[=Bright=]

Re: Reachest Faction

Owning the italian peninsula in general is a great source of income. Although Milan can make loads of money, the in my opinion best chances of building a giant economy lay in the middle east. With Egypt you can easily take all settlements up to Antioch in the beginning and build up a strong economy, without even fighting anyone but rebels. Antioch is probably the best money-making settlement in the whole game (In my campaign I gain 10500 per turn by it)

// This could serve as a good advice regarding Egypt: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=265193&highlight=Nazgul+Killer#eg

Anyways, when playing with Milan, conquer the whole peninsula as fast as possible, including the two islands west of it.
Another good advice: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=265193&highlight=Nazgul+Killer#mil

 

[moor1992]

Re: Reachest Faction

Thanks, these are great guides! Gonna make a coffee and have a good look at them, before starting a game.

Take care!

 

[Silverheart]

Re: Reachest Faction

Any Italian faction - take over the five northern regions in Italy + Mareseille, and your economy should be stabile from there on out.
Naples, Corsica and Sardinia are good to have too.

Egypt - very rich starting regions, with many other rich regions close by and easy to conquer quickly.

Any Iberian faction - not the best, but you will have a good and stabile economy once you´ve taken over the entire Iberian peninsula.

Also, welcome to the forums! ^::^

 

[=Bright=]

Re: Reachest Faction

Any Iberian faction - not the best, but you will have a good and stabile economy once you´ve taken over the entire Iberian peninsula.

And of course you have access to the riches of Timbuktu and Arguin.

 

[Silverheart]

Re: Reachest Faction

And of course you have access to the riches of Timbuktu and Arguin.

Timbuktu and Arguin are both in Sahara, not Iberia.
Only the Moors have direct access to them.

The other Iberian factions, Spain and Portugal, have to make their way through them before they can gain access to those regions.
But yes, you´re still much closer than any non-Iberian faction, of course.

 

[Vampiresbane]

Re: Reachest Faction

The area's listed above in others' post are correct. Both the middle east and the italian peninsula are great sources of trade and wealth followed by the Iberian peninsula though I would argue holding all of Britain or Baltic Sea territores can be incredibly lucrative as well.

Overall the factions that are more favored towards trade are Milan, Venice, and the HRE since they all have access to building banks in addition to all the other standard ports and trade guilds.

Really it all matters what area of the world do you want to play in. I've played as Venice, HRE, England, and Turkey and do very well economy wise in their respective areas. The cities of Venice, Vienna, Antioch, and London can make some SERIOUS cash. Though Antioch takes the cake, as I also have seen the most money coming out of that city, now at 10,500 a turn. Vienna has also suprised me though, being completely land bound, but somehow it rakes in the money.

Oh and I should mention I believe Turkey and Egypt can build hospitals (forget the in game name) that help boost health which in turn boosts growth rate and population. Money coming from a HUGE population in the form of taxes can be pretty impressive. Might be why Antioch has so much income-I should check the city income page.

 

[Silverheart]

Re: Reachest Faction

The area's listed above in others' post are correct. Both the middle east and the italian peninsula are great sources of trade and wealth followed by the Iberian peninsula though I would argue holding all of Britain or Baltic Sea territores can be incredibly lucrative as well.

Overall the factions that are more favored towards trade are Milan, Venice, and the HRE since they all have access to building banks in addition to all the other standard ports and trade guilds.

Really it all matters what area of the world do you want to play in. I've played as Venice, HRE, England, and Turkey and do very well economy wise in their respective areas. The cities of Venice, Vienna, Antioch, and London can make some SERIOUS cash. Though Antioch takes the cake, as I also have seen the most money coming out of that city, now at 10,500 a turn. Vienna has also suprised me though, being completely land bound, but somehow it rakes in the money.

Oh and I should mention I believe Turkey and Egypt can build hospitals (forget the in game name) that help boost health which in turn boosts growth rate and population. Money coming from a HUGE population in the form of taxes can be pretty impressive. Might be why Antioch has so much income-I should check the city income page.

Muslim factions (I think Moors get them too) can build Bimaristans, a form of hospitals for boosting health.
They are expensive and time-consuming to build, though, so it is better to build town halls first, and then construct them in peaceful, unthreatened settlements after your economy is already steady and climbing.
Encouraging population booms to increase money from taxes is a good, long-term strategy for building your economy, and is best accomplished by constructing improved Farms and improve public health.
Town halls serve the double purpose of improving health (increased population) and public order (happier people), making them increase population and aiding in controlling the population at the same time.


Controlling the entire British islands is also a good way to establish a good economy, though I have my doubts about the Baltic regions.
Since the Baltic regions are undeveloped from the start, it will take a long time before they become high-income, important cities. Also, they are not as clumped together and easy to control as the British island world, Iberia or Northern Italy, with clear natural obstacles encircling and isolating them - which makes any of them more suceptible for attack. If you play as the Danes or Poland or Russia, I find that´s it´s usually preferable to expand in some other direction first before trying to claim all of the Baltic.
Once you have conquered and developed it, it will of course become an area of high income - but it requires for you to have a stabile economy and a good amount of military forces before you conquer them, lest you will not be able to hold them for long.

 

[eugenioso]

Re: Reachest Faction

Hey.

First I want to mention that I'm new on this forum and still unfamiliar with HOW TO SPELL RICHEST

Thanks

i gotta say though that milan is in close dispute with venice as to who can make the most cash the fastest.

egypy is a pretty good cash cow as it starts, with all those ports and nice spice/sugar/slaves for the merchants to sell. spain is also good at making cash, at least after developing a little bit. the italians have the best of all however, as they are in a prime location to establish trades with everyone.

be mindful though, that there is no love of the venetians or the milanese in the game by the other factions.

 

[PrestigeX]

Re: Reachest Faction

Egypt I find is the easiest economic power, because you can take over so many provinces without much challenge - rebel settlements.

They do have the threat of crusaders and mongols, but not always -- sometimes Mongols will just by pass egyptian lands and go for Turkey / Byzantines / Russia - it sort of depends how far north your Egyptian lands go.

Italian factions are good but, too much war I find -- too many neighbours too many threats.

Italian Regions, like Genoa - make a ton of money but I don't think it really matters who you are when you own them, they always make money.


For a first campaign, Its good to go as a faction like England where you can take oever the British Isles (kill scotland) and sit back with no threat at all -- except perhaps if you have some French territory and france attacks -- but you can always abandon these if you're so focused on economy / peace.


I often gift provinces to other factions, rather than keep them when I know they will only attract invasion. (especially fun is gifting places to the Pope!, just make sure you destroy siege buildings first otherwise you'll see a half stack of Trebuchets not a proper army)

 

[eXistenZ]

Re: Reachest Faction

Russia can also become very rich of you do it right

 

[Ishan]

Re: Reachest Faction

Russia can also become very rich of you do it right

You could've said any faction then.

But imo land locked faction with high\medium fertility tiles like HRE or islands like England or Sicily are fast in gaining money.
@OP

Download this economy guide.

It has an attachment that you can download.

 

[Diamond]

I've found the best money making faction is Sicily due to easy access to both the Italian Peninsula (and starting with your backs to the sea, not a potential enemy like Venice or Milan) and the Middle East. Being in the middle of the Mediterranean Sea brings you a lot of trade income too.

 

[eXistenZ]

Re: Reachest Faction

You could've said any faction then.

But imo land locked faction with high\medium fertility tiles like HRE or islands like England or Sicily are fast in gaining money.

idk, im always scraping for money with HRE. With russia you can conquer all those rebel provinces. I am ussually at 35k at turn 50 with russia.

(i remember that cause the amount of money always gave me away when i posed a russian who am i-map )

 

[Diamond]

It takes you 50 turns to get 35k??

 

[Ishan]

@existenz
I agree but in the end it all depends on the micro-management that we do.
@Diamond
It depends how one is investing his income, in the early game my income is also low as everything is spent in training troops, if one is turtling then it's a different thing.

 

[crzyrndm]

I don't know why noone has mentioned England/Scotland/Denmark yet (and Russia/HRE/Poland without too much expansion).

100k by turn 50 with denmark with only three provinces, and I only captured the third one at turn 40 so it was actually losing me money for the most part as I was developing it.
Similar story with England(which makes scotland possible too). It's the only faction I've managed to have 3 cities earning 7+k per turn bordering each other (York(over 8k), Nottingham, the scots capital which I forget), plus you have Arhus and the other settlements near the sea.

The byzantines can also get very rich, very quickly. Constantinople, Thessalonica, and the settlements along the coast north of Constantinople can all pull in a lot of money.

I think a better question would be which factions are poorer than others

 

[Silverheart]

We have mentioned the British Isles.
And with Denmark you can make a good economy by taking over Scandinavia and Hamburg - but there´s no guarantee you´ll have a stabile economy after that.
Same thing with Byzantine Empire - even if you take the Greece/Macedon + western Anatolia regions, you need to invest your income wisely to make some serious money.

With Milan, you can just conquer the entire northen portion of Italy, and you´re pretty much guaranteed a stabile economy from there on out.

 

[FootSoldier]

Rich areas involve so many factors, don't they? Your own markets and wharves, those of your trading partners, distance to capital and corruption, etc. etc.

Antioch+ is richest
I'm in agreement with the Middle East getting richest quickest. It's the territories - Antioch, + Jerusalem, Alexandria, Iconium, (with Nicosia and Adana converted to cities), that are so rich when built up.

Egypt has the best access to this area, and would be my choice for an economic path. They can have the least fighting. Turkey is next, (and their units are great), followed by the Byzantines, who will have to fight their way in, but can do so quickly. Both Turkey and the Byzantine will involve fighting and conquest.

The crusades and the Mongols aren't much of a problem is you're canny and prepared, imho. Egypt, the Turks and the Byz can beat the Mongols in the field.

Italy and the Med for #2
For next richest area I'd go for the Italians on the med - Genoa and Florence, with Marseilles, and later the whole Italian peninsula. Milan is the choice faction for these, but as other posters observe - as Milan you're inevitably embroiled in lots of wars. With them I'd look to take out the Pope and Sicily too.

Sicily becomes spectacularly rich if converted to a town, in my experience. If I was Milan going south I'd convert Sicily, and keep Tunis as the castle. Convert Algiers too :d

I find the Adriatic second to this, but great if you have Venice, Bologna and Naples.

North Sea and the Baltic for #3
Third I would put the North Sea area - England + Antwerp and Bruges, and Aarhus is very rich. Oslo should be converted - I've made over 4000 a turn with it (see screenshot 1).

Equal third I put the Baltic, which is very rich when it's developed. I've had Stockholm over 9000 per turn. It does take longer, and you need to convert some castles. Thorn does very well as a town - Stettin too, and, of course, markets and wharves in these towns boost the income of Stockholm, Riga and Novgorod.

This is the key area for Russia, Poland and Denmark.

The Aegean is also good ... Iberia too.

Build markets and wharves, and convert castles to cities
The most important thing, it seems to me, is to control an area where you own several ports trading with each other, where you've built the markets and wharves. I convert as many castles to cities as I can - lots do very well, like Oslo and Stettin (in screenshots #1, showing the Baltic), at 4000 each.

Territories that aren't rich themselves can enrich the territories around them with markets an wharves - Durazzo is a good example (at 4000 in the screenshot). Then it doesn't seem to matter too much where that is that economic area is - the North Sea, the Baltic, the Western Med ...

I don't know if there are any you can have without fighting at all ...

Rich landlocked territories
I'd say Krakow and Vienna are the richest of these. Then Zagreb and Dijon.

Timbuktu always seems to disappoint, although I've only played the Moors once.

Taxes don't keep up with population
Taxes don't seem to go up in a straight line. Big populations give a disappointing return. Up to 40K - 45K it seems to be that taxes are at 2.5% of the population. After that it diminishes. My screenshot shows Venice at 197,000 population, but with a tax income of slightly less than 1% of this at 1936 per turn.

Screenshots:
1. Poland - Stockhom at 9000 with converted Oslo and Stettin at 4000
2. The Byzantines - Italy; Zagreb 5000, Durazzo 4000
3. The Byzantines - Venice at 197,000 pop has <1% taxes

 

[Aeratus]

The above post is basically "/ thread"

 

[Inflatable]

3. The Byzantines - Venice at 197,000 pop has <1% taxes

Whoa! 200.000 population? is that a mod or something?
You can create huge cities at 24.000 and growth usually stops at about 30.000 right?
How in the world did you get .2 million people in a city?

 

[Bungo Baggins]

Whoa! 200.000 population? is that a mod or something?
You can create huge cities at 24.000 and growth usually stops at about 30.000 right?
How in the world did you get .2 million people in a city?

I don't know which modification he uses, but you can change this at the end of "descr_settlement_mechanics.xml" in the data folder. But you also will have to change some other stats to reach such numbers, otherwise qualor will destroy both population growth and order...

 

[moor1992]

Hey.

Thanks for all the replies and helpful advices

I chose Milan, but very low production and war with Venice caused me to lag behind and HRE attacked me, along with France.. I took way too long on that campaign!

Then I started over as Egypt, and conquered the castles/cities on turkish border, before they got there.. After this, I conquered whole of the Holy Land and went to war with Turks (they attacked me, couldn't stop the war even with very generous offers), conquering their castles from the Byzantine's side. They were too busy fighting Russia and left their coast unprotected.

Anyway, Egypt is a gold mine.. I make more money than I could ever have the use for, and the campaign itself is quiet peaceful and slow paced (which is good). I keep allies and perfect relationship with the Pope, so I hope no to fight any crusaders soon.. As for castles, I usually convert them into cities. I have one castle near Jerusalem and one right by the turkish border.

One quick question: Should I keep watch on Byzantines? They seem to focus their powers on Europe, but anything can happen, right?
Also, excuse my english (my second language), it may not be perfect

Take care

 

[Avatar]

Hey.

Thanks for all the replies and helpful advices

I chose Milan, but very low production and war with Venice caused me to lag behind and HRE attacked me, along with France.. I took way too long on that campaign!

Then I started over as Egypt, and conquered the castles/cities on turkish border, before they got there.. After this, I conquered whole of the Holy Land and went to war with Turks (they attacked me, couldn't stop the war even with very generous offers), conquering their castles from the Byzantine's side. They were too busy fighting Russia and left their coast unprotected.

Anyway, Egypt is a gold mine.. I make more money than I could ever have the use for, and the campaign itself is quiet peaceful and slow paced (which is good). I keep allies and perfect relationship with the Pope, so I hope no to fight any crusaders soon.. As for castles, I usually convert them into cities. I have one castle near Jerusalem and one right by the turkish border.

One quick question: Should I keep watch on Byzantines? They seem to focus their powers on Europe, but anything can happen, right?
Also, excuse my english (my second language), it may not be perfect

Take care

The key to a good start with Milan is to take advantage of the inevitable AI stupidity and attack the city of Venice on turn 2 or 3 when the army inside is sent marching to some rebel town or other. Sack it for quick cash and use the proceeds to buy Bologna off the HRE. You take a little reputation hit for sacking a city, but its worth it long term because you now have a solid base in northern Italy and can build up your forces in comfort.

As for Egypt, it might well be a slow paced peaceful campaign now, but I'm guessing either the Mongols didnt arrive yet or are pointing their horses at Kiev instead. You definitely want some castles as Egypt, preferably on the northern side of the holy lands around Antioch, since thats usually where attacking forces will show up.

The Byzantines actually have no reason to attack your lands, since their specific city objective is Rome, but you never know in this game...

 

[In3x]

Hey.

Got one question bothering me since I was playing RTW. Never had a chance to ask, so here it is.. (Don't wanna make mess with useless threads, so I'm asking in this one)

How many units do you usually leave in cities? Do you have to increase the number of units as the population grows bigger? How to check if I have enough units in my city?

In bigger cities I usually leave 4 units of infantry militia and 4 of archers, and in smaller 2 units of each.. Sometimes I put better/more units if the city is on neighbour/enemy (especially the ones with weak relationships) borders, so it doesn't draw any attention.

I can't find any specific information about the ratio garrisonopulation.. I don't want to waste money on unnecessary garrison.

P.S Just reading through M2TW guides, if I find anything, I'll delete this question

1 unit, sometimes 0 (when I have troop production that will finish at the end of the turn in that city).

As to your original point, I would rank the the factions like so:

Top Tier: Islamic factions

1 The Turks
2 Egypt
3 The Moors

The Muslim factions are the richest because they have access to completely free troops from turn 1, in order to separate them I then take into account starting position, number and type of cities as well as distance and ease of potential conquests. I do rate Egypt's starting position, trade revenues and profitability higher than that of the Turks, however, the Turks can easily sack Constantinople within the first 5 turns and the money gained from sacking as well as the income from such a huge city will then drive your forward at a great pace. The Moors I do not believe to be close to the other two.

Second Tier: Italian factions plus the HRE

4 Sicily
5 Venice
6 Milan
7 HRE

These factions are chosen because of their proximity to Rome and therefore they are ranked by how quickly they can have a crusade called in order to have free troop upkeep. The Italian factions are remarkably even in their economies with I think Venice taking the slight edge and also being the best in terms of starting position. Added to this is access to the sea, enabling crusading armies to assault and sack a city before sailing to besiege another all in the same turn. HRE appears poor, but if you build a town hall in Bologna and train a diplomat you can have a crusade called by turn 5. HRE is hard to get off the ground but if you can make sure in the early turns to capture 2-3 settlements a turn the money from sacks, building demolition and taxes can turn central europe into a germanic powerhouse very quickly.

Third Tier: The not quite Italian catholics

8 Hungary
9 France
10 Portugal
11 Spain

These factions benefit from being reasonably close to the Pope, but not quite close enough for that lightning quick crusade to get your economy pulsing. Hungary I consider the best of these factions as they are amongst the closest to the Pope as well as being in a prime position to sack Constantinople and being closish to the sea enables good mobility. France is good because the position and territories it starts with are good, it is very close to the Pope and also has good access to the Mediterranean sea. Spain and Portugal are very similar, I think the only real difference is that Portugal will most likely take Zaragoza first and the Spaniards get Valencia and I'd rather have an easy fight for a city than a tougher battle to take a castle.

Fourth Tier: The rest of the catholics

12 England
13 Poland
14 Scotland
15 Denmark

England are the best here because they are the biggest and strongest and they also have a great starting position. Poland edge out Scotland because although they have an inferior starting position, they are bigger and they can get to Constantinople and the holy lands much faster. Denmark is the worst because the Baltic is not as prosperous as the British Isles and other than that they are much the same as Scotland.

Fifth Tier: The Orthodox factions

16 Byzantium
17 Russia

No crusades, no jihad, no hope. Having a great starting position with some tremendous cities under your control is of little consequence when other factions have completely free armies that apparently ride trucks who can recruit some incredibly powerful mercs that the Orthodox factions never have access to, talk about unfair. Sure they can be stinking rich, but they will never be as rich as a human controlled Islamic or Catholic faction. As for Russia, long boring marches through the Steppes to well defended but poor settlements is about all you are gonna get. At least you will be reasonably rich because you won't control enough settlements to spend all your money.

I know there will be those who say I was Russia once and I had loads of money. That may be true, but you'd have had even more money at that stage with almost any other faction.

One last point, this all really depends on what timescale you are looking to become rich over, mine is quite long as my strategy to become rich is to enslave the entire world to work for my bidding, so I think that the richest factions generally coincide with the factions best suited to a quick world conquest.

 

[Double A]

Egypt, Byzies, Italians, or anyone who owns Antioch.

 

[FootSoldier]

Population of 197,000 in Venice
The population of Venice went to 197,000 on Kingdoms vanilla. No mod. I had a high chivalry governor for about 20 turns. I occupied, not sacked, Venice when I took it.

There was an art gallery already in Venice (+5% public health), and the Byzantine aqueducts gave a 25% boost to public health. In the same campaign Alexandria had a population of 140,000. The Byzantines are best for growing big populations because of the aqueducts.

I usually grow my cities to 40,000 - 50,000, depending on faction and city. I came into M2TW with a horror of squalor gained from RTW, where every city seemed to overpopulate and rebel in the long term.

I keep taxes on normal, and rarely boost it to high unless pressed for cash. High taxes seem to cut the maximum possible end population, as well as cutting population growth short term.

At first I thought there would be a big benefit from extra taxes, but have since discovered that these go up very slowly after 40,000 population. As a consequence I'm not so sensitive to growth rates now :d

The Byzantines get super rich
On topic, it's true that the Baltic gets rich more slowly, but they do get there. I can't agree that the Byzantines aren't as rich as anyone else. The Aegean becomes super rich over time, especially if Smyrna and Corinth are converted to cities. The Byzantines are also well placed to conquer the Middle East, and this is what I usually do with them, so they get rich off Antioch and Alexandria too.

Russia has great cavalry
Russia does start slowly, but if it conquers the Baltic it gets tons of money. It's well defended to start with, so expansion is easy. The important thing with the Steppes is to get to Kiev first. After that the steppes can be taken at one's leisure.

The real point of playing the Russians is using their great cavalry - and the Dismounted Dvor. The Cossack Musketeers are also great. Both Mongols and Timurids are beatable by the Russians.

City Garrisons
I generally keep my garrisons for cities near the free upkeep level. So, towns have 2 - 3 as garrison, and huge cities have 4 - 6. I'll generally have 2 units in a castle - one of them peasants.

The loyalty level is the key indicator. If you open the settlement details screen you can see what makes up the cities loyalty figure. Garrisons are important when the settlement is small - with huge populations the effect of the garrison is minimal.

 

[Blaze of Macedon]

I think you need to think in terms of regions and cities rather than factions.

And as a general rule i like it more when i leave it to the English or French to go through all the troble of taking out that huge stack at Antwerp or Brugges, pumping money in it to develop it propperly, only for me to come knocking at their door later on when i can just reap the profits.

And in general in Europe i have found the Flanders region, Nortehrn Italy and Stockholm to be most profitable (Stockholm did wonders for me with Russia, but the investement was all mine). Haven't tried London so can't talk about the British Isles.

Out of Europe, the Levant and those resources in Western Sahara are where the money is at.

Also i'd like to try out what happens if i turn Hamburg into a town? Can i expect some good profits? Has anybody tried this anywayz?

 

[Silverheart]

No, Hamburg is usually better to keep as a fortification for defending Denmark/ defending against Denmark.
Maybe after you´ve captured all the regions around, and there´s no risk of enemy armies coming by there - but by then, I have always developed it so far that it´s just as good keeping it that way.

 

[Blaze of Macedon]

No, Hamburg is usually better to keep as a fortification for defending Denmark/ defending against Denmark.

Maybe after you´ve captured all the regions around, and there´s no risk of enemy armies coming by there - but by then, I have always developed it so far that it´s just as good keeping it that way.

Are you talking from experience or just common sense? I know what common sense is i have always kept Hamburg a castle because of what you said naturally but i want to know if it can be made a "Stockholm-like" cash cow when developed. Historically it was very rich in times of the hanseatic league and besides Hamburg i see no other german settlement to try this with...