Skutatoi. -merged with unit suggestion

Shadow_Imperator · Jun 7, 2006

Unit suggestion thread

Just browsing the TW forums I dug up one of my old posts which some people here might interesting, I'd like to bring this to Militiaman's and Alpaca's attention:

Menaulatoi: Heavy infantry armed with a hybrid Pike/Falx weapon (Called the Menaulion), the menaulion was very thick spear like weapon, taken whole from young oak or cornel saplings and capped by a long blade (45-50 cm). Menaulatoi could use their weapons to form a phalanx as use the emaulion as an effective weapon for cleaving infantrymen, cavalrymen and horses alike. The menaulatoi had to be used by especially strong infantrymen (called Menaulatoi after their weapon) and was often deployed against enemy Kataphraktoi and other heavy cavalry.

Scutatus: Basically the REAL equivilent of MTW Byzantine Infantry. The Scutatus wore pointed steel helmets and a mail shirts, they also wore gauntlets and greaves to protect the hands and shins. The scutatus carried large round/oval shields (much like those seen equiped of Roman Praetorians). They were armed with any combination of the following, a lance (or Byzantine kontaria), a sword (Byzantine xiphos or curve bladed sabre like paramerion) and/or an axe (Byzantine pelekia) with a blade at one side and a spike at the other.

I realise the Scutatus is basically the Skutatoi, but it would be good to see either, the Skutatoi be given a sword as a secondary weapon, or a sword armed 'Byzantine Infantry' type unit, armed with sword and sheild, much like the description.

Please if you think of units, post em!

On that note, are Billmen in? Also, an MTW like version of spear armed 'Saracen Infantry' would be nice too!

GeneralLee · Jun 7, 2006

Re: Unit suggestion thread

A Feudal swordmen unit would be usefull. I added one by using the Feudal foot knight image and data, I increased unit size and decreased attack / defense.

Ciaran S · Jun 8, 2006

Re: Unit suggestion thread

GeneralLee said:
A Feudal swordmen unit would be usefull.

Same here.
My proposition: give the Feudal Men at Arms swords and make Feudal sergeants the standart spear unit. The way it is, sergeants are superfluos (weaker stats plus a longer build-up) and the catholic factions sorely lack a sword-armed unit type.

Shadow_Imperator · Jun 9, 2006

Re: Unit suggestion thread

Yeah I'm trying to recall MTW, Militia sergents had axe-headed polearms, feudal sergents had spears, chivalry sergents also had spears, and an impressive shield to boot, chivalric men at arms had swords and shield, I just can't recall feudal men at arms.... Hmmm, I can't seem to recall the unit at all, calls for a reinstall I think...

Order foot soldiers for the Crusader States and maybe even Teutonic Knights would be good addition too!

Ciaran S · Jun 10, 2006

Re: Unit suggestion thread

Feudal Men at Arms in MTW have swords as well. There´s a system there: sword-armed infantry are called Men at Arms, spear-armed are called Sergeants, at least as far as the Catholic factions are concerned. I´m not going to argue about naming conventions, but at the moment there is a gap in most Nothern European armies that needs filling, and the sergeants in their current state are useless.

paulus · Jun 10, 2006

Re: Unit suggestion thread

What you could do is offer several versions of a unit, one spear-armed and one sword armed. So you have Machaira Skutatoi and Logchoskutatoi, the former sword-armed and the latter spear-armed. That way you can reflect the versatility of the unit a little better. You could probably figure out some way to do it with men-at-arms as well.

On a side note, how about some macemen? I don't know if they're accurate or not, but I loved them in Lords of the Realm 2 way back in the day. Armor would be basically equivalent to the feudal sergeant, but a mace instead of a spear, and fast-moving. Make a good brigand unit too, or a castle assault unit.

Clibby · Jun 10, 2006

Re: Unit suggestion thread

I was thinking, instead of the crusader states and tthe teutonic order, you make the units available to their proper faction via a monastary and some sort of military building. The two orders never really held much land and it would free up the slots for say a papal faction and another one. They would be similar to the Knights of Santiago and it would create more diversity among the factions.

Shaun · Jun 10, 2006

Re: Unit suggestion thread

Clibby said:
I was thinking, instead of the crusader states and tthe teutonic order, you make the units available to their proper faction via a monastary and some sort of military building. The two orders never really held much land and it would free up the slots for say a papal faction and another one. They would be similar to the Knights of Santiago and it would create more diversity among the factions.

Good idea, MTW2 uses a similar system, but they use guilds instead of monastries.

Well me not being an expert on Byzantium, but i do think that they need a good sword unit, and so do the catholic factions. Maybe add anatolian inf, or Latin auxilluaries for later eras.

Ettore · Jun 12, 2006

Re: Unit suggestion thread

Some suggestions

Make admiral faster so ships will be faster with teh 4 sfy script this will make ships more realistic...
On the ship argoment tehre is a historic problem the great power in that age were the italian galley fleets: without an italian faction those fleets dont exist.

Lucius_Galba · Jun 12, 2006

Re: Unit suggestion thread

Yea the fleets should be faster, so that you can reach the New World quicker and have fun destroying the Aztecs.

Scottish Feudal Knight all the way with a hint of the English Longbow

Ettore · Jun 12, 2006

Re: Unit suggestion thread

....no to new world but to Holy Lands. The fleets could carry an army bu England to Outmar lands in less then an year not in 3 or 4
Before a to make a sarcastic reply it is better ask because a suggestion is made if you dont want to make a flame post

Other suggestion
I read that to have a crusade effect ( thought they thought to an horde use) developers thought to give money (50000 florins, not victory - glory- points as in original medioval) with a script. To stop early wars through Catholic nations (in MeTW there was Pope intervention to stop that) are they thinking to a money penalty or a victor points penalty script?

SicilianVespers · Jun 12, 2006

Re: Unit suggestion thread

If you are looking for a sword-armed unit for Byzantium, I would suggest using Spatharioi, instead of making up names. The Spatharioi protected the Strategoi in the Themes. There were also Spatharioi in the Tagma, but I cant recall how they were actually named right now.

Shadow_Imperator · Jun 13, 2006

Re: Unit suggestion thread

I suppose that name would fit, since the Roman 'Spatha' was adopted and later changed to satisfy Byzantine Requirements. Spathoi in Greek? Spatharioi sounds good though... It beats 'Byzantine Infantry'.... :\

Cayo_Julio_Cesar · Jun 13, 2006

Re: Unit suggestion thread

Shaun said:
Good idea, MTW2 uses a similar system, but they use guilds instead of monastries.

That would be very good, so the player could chose one of the orders and use it as its soliders, with the condition of a very very expensive building, say like 30k florins, to make sure they'll use it on late game AND therefore you could add the foot knight version of each.

also in my very poor and humble opinion....i'd like see better horses , specially on crusader units , the Terrae Expugnanade horses are the best i've seen so far, not for the armor and such but becouse they look very realistic.

Shadow_Imperator · Jul 28, 2006

Skutatoi.

Just a concise recommendation, I would suggest giving the Skutatoi a second weapon ability and give them swords. This would make them truely versatile...

Shadow_Imperator · Jul 28, 2006

Re: Unit suggestion thread

SicilianVespers said:
If you are looking for a sword-armed unit for Byzantium, I would suggest using Spatharioi, instead of making up names. The Spatharioi protected the Strategoi in the Themes. There were also Spatharioi in the Tagma, but I cant recall how they were actually named right now.

Spatharioi Tagmata maybe?

Zenith Darksea · Jul 28, 2006

Re: Unit suggestion thread

That's poor Greek - spatharioi tagmata translates as 'swordsmen regiments'. Something more like spatharion taxis ('battalion of swordsmen') might be better. However, that particular infantry force was not very common on the battlefield. The truth is that the standard skoutatoi infantrymen would generally be armed with spears and swords at once - it was not actually very common for infantry to use swords as a main armament on a battlefield. Furthermore, the spathe was a longsword generally employed by the nobility; by this time most ordinary infantry and cavalry would employ the paramerion.

Grand Master of the Order · Jul 28, 2006

Re: Unit suggestion thread

The excubitors tagmata is the eastern roman heavy sword infantry.
The skutatoi and men-at-arms have had mostly swords as second weapon, but wouldn't have used it in formation because of the loss of range compared to their spears and furthermore their swords usually were not comparable in quality or length with that of nobles.

Shadow_Imperator · Jul 28, 2006

Re: Unit suggestion thread

Grand Master of the Order said:
The excubitors tagmata is the eastern roman heavy sword infantry.

But excubitors tagmata are Guard units, much like Varangians... There is nothing wrong with having rank and file swordsmen.. I just can't understand, you go from MTW where the bland and generic 'Byzantine Infantry' was a sword armed unit and the Turkish and Egyptian 'Saracen Infantry' was in turn a spear armed unit. Then in CTW, the opposite is apparent... Beats me, I'm not having a dig, but just an observation...

Well then, Skutatoi should have a secondary weapon ability IMO...

DaVinci · Jul 28, 2006

Re: Skutatoi.

Shadow_Imperator said:
Just a concise recommendation, I would suggest giving the Skutatoi a second weapon ability and give them swords. This would make them truely versatile...

... isn't possible as long they are spearmen-infantry. Only javellin or phalanx infantry-units can have second weapon sword (or knife).

Shadow_Imperator · Jul 28, 2006

Re: Skutatoi.

Ah, so I'm guessing there is a difference between Phalanx and non Phalanx spearmen then?

DaVinci · Jul 29, 2006

Re: Skutatoi.

Shadow_Imperator said:
Ah, so I'm guessing there is a difference between Phalanx and non Phalanx spearmen then?

If you refer here to the Formation file, yes.

Shadow_Imperator · Jul 29, 2006

Re: Skutatoi.

So what your saying, in a nutshell, is that Phalanx spearmen units can used swords as a secondary whilst plain spearmen without Phalanx ability cannot use swords as a secondary weapon?

Sure there isn't any way around it?

DaVinci · Jul 29, 2006

Re: Skutatoi.

Shadow_Imperator said:
So what your saying, in a nutshell, is that Phalanx spearmen units can used swords as a secondary whilst plain spearmen without Phalanx ability cannot use swords as a secondary weapon?

Sure there isn't any way around it?

Not that i know of.

If you know a workaround then please let me know it.

plasticfigurine · Jul 29, 2006

Re: Skutatoi.

DaVinci said:
Not that i know of.

If you know a workaround then please let me know it.

Since the 1.5 patch, regular spearmen have been able to have a secondary weapon.

EDIT: It's a little buggy though, because they charge with their secondary weapon every time.

DaVinci · Jul 30, 2006

Re: Skutatoi.

plasticfigurine said:
Since the 1.5 patch, regular spearmen have been able to have a secondary weapon.

EDIT: It's a little buggy though, because they charge with their secondary weapon every time.

Interesting, thanks for this info, this is indeed new for me, strange :hmmm:

However, if they doesn't use ie. swords proper as actual second weapons, then it makes no sense.

Shadow_Imperator · Jul 31, 2006

Re: Skutatoi.

What is that suppose to mean Davinci?

DaVinci · Jul 31, 2006

Re: Skutatoi.

Shadow_Imperator said:
What is that suppose to mean Davinci?

... that it makes no sense to enable non_phalanx spearmen with a second weapon sword, if they don't use it proper in the same kind as phalanx-units. They would charge with swords instead with their spears, and this isn't the purpose of spearmen.

Shadow_Imperator · Aug 1, 2006

Re: Skutatoi.

Oh yeah I get that now... But is that such a bad idea, that might make Sutatoi a very special unit, and even more useful for the average Byzantine player, I suppose, if you'd want Skutatoi to charge sav with spears, you'd have to get them to hold alt or whatever the button is... It isn't that much of a big deal, but I think you should give it a go mate!

DaVinci · Aug 1, 2006

Re: Skutatoi.

Shadow_Imperator said:
Oh yeah I get that now... But is that such a bad idea, that might make Sutatoi a very special unit, and even more useful for the average Byzantine player, I suppose, if you'd want Skutatoi to charge sav with spears, you'd have to get them to hold alt or whatever the button is... It isn't that much of a big deal, but I think you should give it a go mate!

Well, just test it out for yourself, it's easy, go into chivalry/data/export_descr_unit.txt, and search skutatoi and insert/overwrite: the bold line is responsible, i didn't test it though, it's for you to try it out. Perhaps in future we will have a certain byz sword unit, who knows. For the average player the hint to use alt for charge actions isn't appropiate, so i think we won't use the sec weapon entry for skutatoi units by default, and important, the AI isn't able to use it.

type skutatos
dictionary skutatos
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type Light_1
soldier russ_spearman, 35, 0, 0.7
;mount_effect horse +6, camel +3
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, very_hardy
formation 1.0, 1.5, 2.0, 2.2, 4, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 2, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,0.4
stat_pri_attr spear, spear_bonus_6
;stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,0.5
stat_sec 2, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 10 ,0.5
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 5, 4, 2, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 9, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 0, 900, 450, 75, 90, 420
ownership slave, parthia

Probably, you must insert also in descr_model_battle.txt the bold part, to get it to work, but here is the problem, that skutatoi is russ_spearmen model, so it it possible that the other not skutatoi units don't work proper with this additional skeleton entry. And always back up these files, before you change something. A workaround would be to give skutatoi a whole new unit block/name for the edu and dmb, then there isn't a longer problem for the shared model.

type russ_spearman
skeleton fs_spearman, fs_medium_swordsman
indiv_range 40
texture pontus, chivalry/data/models_unit/textures/MTW_unit_russ_spearman_kiev.tga
texture armenia, chivalry/data/models_unit/textures/MTW_unit_russ_spearman_novgorod.tga
texture parthia, chivalry/data/models_unit/textures/MTW_unit_skutatos.tga
texture slave, chivalry/data/models_unit/textures/MTW_unit_russ_spearman_novgorod.tga
model_flexi chivalry/data/models_unit/MTW_unit_russ_spearman.cas, 12
model_flexi chivalry/data/models_unit/MTW_unit_russ_spearman_med.cas, 15
model_flexi chivalry/data/models_unit/MTW_unit_russ_spearman_low.cas, 40
model_flexi chivalry/data/models_unit/MTW_unit_russ_spearman_lowest.cas, max
model_sprite pontus, 60.0, chivalry/data/sprites/russ_spearman_sprite_novgorod.spr
model_sprite armenia, 60.0, chivalry/data/sprites/russ_spearman_sprite_kiev.spr
model_sprite parthia, 60.0, chivalry/data/sprites/skutatoi_sprite.spr
model_sprite slave, 60.0, chivalry/data/sprites/russ_spearman_sprite_kiev.spr
model_tri 400, 0.5f, 0.5f, 0.5f

Skutatoi. -merged with unit suggestion

Skutatoi. -merged with unit suggestion

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