It seems to me ridiculous that on a TWC, that the very core of the Total War community, the modders, are the ones who have to go through the most amount of effort to please CdeC and become citizens, from a brief glance at the Citizen Antechamber.

Civitate is awarded to members who have contributed much less to TWC and who do much less once they attain their rank, while modders seem to always contribute before and after they don the red.

I understand CdeC is biased towards fancy words and stupid arguments, but one would think that recognizing the core of the TWC community would be more important than letting basically anyone in as a Civie.

Not to mention that, even as this very sub-forum displays, hardly none of those who actually become Civies wear the title with any grace or meaning.

Please reduce your querry to baseline elements and present foundation to substantiate your claim...Ergo..."Show me Da Money Honey"....

Love and kisses...

M...

Round Two:

Please reiterate your claims utilizing a "Boil the fat off it" format, listing both the instigations and the supporting evidence to said claims.

In other words...Please...


me to halp you cuz I really want to address your assertions. In it's current form your concerns are opaque and not viably addressed.

With sincere affection & concern,

M...

I shall reserve my words until I understand Stav's argument, and evidence shown, properly.

It seems to me ridiculous that on a TWC, that the very core of the Total War community, the modders, are the ones who have to go through the most amount of effort to please CdeC and become citizens, from a brief glance at the Citizen Antechamber.

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No, they just have to make sure the work they're using as their contribution is released; if it's not available for download then you're not contributing to the forum.

Civitate is awarded to members who have contributed much less to TWC and who do much less once they attain their rank, while modders seem to always contribute before and after they don the red.

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They don't contribute 'much less' at all. Civitates contribute by taking part in the debate and making logical posts frequently and consistently enough for them to be recognised for it by receiving the badge. Also, it's incorrect and a generalisation to say they stop doing it once they receive the badge; I mean most of the moderators and Hex were granted citizenship based on non-modding contribution and here they are now policing the forum. That's merely one example but there are many more cases of civitates contributing after receiving their rank.

I understand CdeC is biased towards fancy words and stupid arguments, but one would think that recognizing the core of the TWC community would be more important than letting basically anyone in as a Civie.

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I had a brief stint in the CdeC and I have to say you're completely wrong. In fact, an example of a post showing the complete opposite of what you're saying is here:

As hesus perfectly stated: If I look good, I come across very little contributions.

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Also, you're ignoring the fact that the D&D receives a lot of traffic so i'd consider it a core of the TWC community too.

Not to mention that, even as this very sub-forum displays, hardly none of those who actually become Civies wear the title with any grace or meaning.

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You'll have to explain - grace or meaning?

Stavroforos said:

It seems to me ridiculous that on a TWC, that the very core of the Total War community, the modders, are the ones who have to go through the most amount of effort to please CdeC and become citizens, from a brief glance at the Citizen Antechamber.

Civitate is awarded to members who have contributed much less to TWC and who do much less once they attain their rank, while modders seem to always contribute before and after they don the red.

I understand CdeC is biased towards fancy words and stupid arguments, but one would think that recognizing the core of the TWC community would be more important than letting basically anyone in as a Civie.

Not to mention that, even as this very sub-forum displays, hardly none of those who actually become Civies wear the title with any grace or meaning.

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1. Original Context preserved pending OP verification of the charge.

Not to mention that, even as this very sub-forum displays, hardly none of those who actually become Civies wear the title with any grace or meaning

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2. I will concede that I am fundamentally incognizant, and yes perhaps devoid of carriage. However as a blanket statement regarding the citizenry as a whole, I think that remains to be seen. Let us see if indeed folks here lead by example.

Okey Dokes waiting to see if the OP wants to alter his presentation or receive a response based on the original stance and assertion.

Stavroforos said:

It seems to me ridiculous that on a TWC, that the very core of the Total War community, the modders, are the ones who have to go through the most amount of effort to please CdeC and become citizens, from a brief glance at the Citizen Antechamber.

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That's just the latest applicants who haven't made any released work on Total War Center. If you'll look into the Antechamber beyond a perfunctory glance, you'll see that almost every modder with released work has been granted the badge.

Stavroforos said:

Civitate is awarded to members who have contributed much less to TWC and who do much less once they attain their rank, while modders seem to always contribute before and after they don the red.

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That's because modding and debating are two different things and some can do it easier than others. There is more demand for a new patch than for a new view on point x in a Mudpit thread. As such the modders appear to be doing more "work" than a civitate. Of course, this is not factoring in the citizens who are still on content staff.

Stavroforos said:

I understand CdeC is biased towards fancy words and stupid arguments, but one would think that recognizing the core of the TWC community would be more important than letting basically anyone in as a Civie.

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Could not be farther from the truth. If anything, it is easier to pass a modder with released work than someone who is just a debater. Even Jom's application was not unanimous, while I guarantee that a substantial majority of artifexes passed unanimously.

Stavroforos said:

Not to mention that, even as this very sub-forum displays, hardly none of those who actually become Civies wear the title with any grace or meaning.

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That's a personal quibble.

Just me musing, really.

I think my main problem has been released work vs. unreleased, then again as I am not a modder the skill of our modding community amazes me simply because it seems so hard.

I'm in the 'proof of having done work despite it being unreleased counts' camp.

It's a nice camp.

You must understand that viewing and criticizing a modder's work as a Citizen/Civitate/Artifex candidate is inherently more difficult to do than viewing and criticizing a non-modder's contributions.

With a non-modder you can look at their posts and be able to understand them no matter your expertise fairly easily. If someone is an excellent debater then it's not hard to figure that out. But a modder's contributions are much more difficult to assess. First of all, some CdeC members might not have a clue how to mod so it's hard for them to understand how much time and effort it takes a modder to do whatever they have done. Also, it's easy to see if a non-modder contributes more to discussions than others. It's not as easy to see if a modder contributes more to a mod than others. Does that make sense? So, yes, you could make a good argument that modders may have a more difficult time being assessed and/or voted favorably than non-modders. In this case it helps to have modders in the CdeC.

I think there should be some better representation of the Artifex on CdeC. Are any of them even Arties?

Or, perhaps better, maintain the same standards, but make the Artifex rank of higher value than the Civitate one.

Stavroforos said:

I think there should be some better representation of the Artifex on CdeC. Are any of them even Arties?

Or, perhaps better, maintain the same standards, but make the Artifex rank of higher value than the Civitate one.

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Squid is an artifex and y2day is an opifex, so yes there are two of them on the CdeC. Some of the others are better at assessing things like debate, content work and everything in between modding and debating.

Lysimachus said:

Squid is an artifex and y2day is an opifex, so yes there are two of them on the CdeC. Some of the others are better at assessing things like debate, content work and everything in between modding and debating.

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There's no difficulty in assessing debating, or in debating.

Civitate should be the lowest rank of citizenship, as they aren't actually contributing anything to TWC. Content and Modders do.

Stavroforos said:

There's no difficulty in assessing debating, or in debating.

Civitate should be the lowest rank of citizenship, as they aren't actually contributing anything to TWC. Content and Modders do.

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Of course there's difficulty. Firstly you have to identify whether a member with short posts is just spamming or making clear and concise ones, or if they're making long-winded posts which are full of nonsense. Then you have to identify if whether their posts employ sophistry or not and whether their debate on the whole is good.

I'd beg to disagree about them not contributing to TWC either (i'm probably biased since I was patronised for it, but meh) since there are civitates who were made phaleras who have made absolutely exceptional posts (Spartan JKM for an example) and which are undeniably contributions; the D&D and other non-TW areas are still a part of TWC.

Why is someone who slaves away at Content for months below a modder

Lysimachus said:

Of course there's difficulty. Firstly you have to identify whether a member with short posts is just spamming or making clear and concise ones, or if they're making long-winded posts which are full of nonsense. Then you have to identify if whether their posts employ sophistry or not and whether their debate on the whole is good.

I'd beg to disagree about them not contributing to TWC either (i'm probably biased since I was patronised for it, but meh) since there are civitates who were made phaleras who have made absolutely exceptional posts (Spartan JKM for an example) and which are undeniably contributions; the D&D and other non-TW areas are still a part of TWC.

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No, the difficulty is in looking through the person's posting history and their moderator interactions. It is not hard to tell a good debater apart from a bad one.

And how do posts contribute to TWC? Unless these posts are in the form of articles, journals, etc., which could also pass as something that would be published by TWC Content.

Moses Beacon said:

Why is someone who slaves away at Content for months below a modder

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He should be above a D&D debater at least.

Moses Beacon said:

Why is someone who slaves away at Content for months below a modder

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No one is better than anyone else. Each review is a Cathedral unto itself. I will supplement this thought shortly.


Please forgive the intrusion. I thought the distinction necessary.

No, the difficulty is in looking through the person's posting history and their moderator interactions. It is not hard to tell a good debater apart from a bad one.

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Like I said, a member could simply be employing sophistry in to his posting so as to make it seem like he is a good debater even though he's just sounding like one. That's just an example though.

And how do posts contribute to TWC? Unless these posts are in the form of articles, journals, etc., which could also pass as something that would be published by TWC Content

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Because as you post you educate people. If I make a number of extensive postings on Operation Bagration, it's a contribution because it's educating people about what happened and may correct their previously held views on the operation.

Stavroforos said:

No, the difficulty is in looking through the person's posting history and their moderator interactions. It is not hard to tell a good debater apart from a bad one.

And how do posts contribute to TWC? Unless these posts are in the form of articles, journals, etc., which could also pass as something that would be published by TWC Content

He should be above a D&D debater at least.

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Why dont we make it into a class system like you suggest Stav, thats a great idea.

Upper Class: Modder
Middle Class: Content Staff
Lower Class: D&D Debater
Plebs: British People

I can see it working so well.. With the modders with canes and top hats, and the Content Staff with their cars, and the D&D Debaters mining in the pits while those awful Brits clean up after everyone else. I shall propose this in the CVRIA.

Lysimachus said:

Like I said, a member could simply be employing sophistry in to his posting so as to make it seem like he is a good debater even though he's just sounding like one. That's just an example though.

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Perhaps you have difficulty in telling the difference, but I assure you it is quite easy to spot it.

Because as you post you educate people. If I make a number of extensive postings on Operation Bagration, it's a contribution because it's educating people about what happened and may correct their previously held views on the operation.

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So basically only people from VV should become Civies?

Moses Beacon said:

Why dont we make it into a class system like you suggest Stav, thats a great idea.

Upper Class: Modder
Middle Class: Content Staff
Lower Class: D&D Debater
Plebs: British People

I can see it working so well.. With the modders with canes and top hats, and the Content Staff with their cars, and the D&D Debaters mining in the pits while those awful Brits clean up after everyone else. I shall propose this in the CVRIA.

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We already have a class system, Hex > Mods > CdeC > Citizens > Plebs.

Don't see a problem with creating one based on worth though.

Forgive my ignorance, but I ask this:

Even if we made it where Artifex was considered higher then Civitate....
What would that do?
Even if one is considered better then the other, at the end of the day, they both give you a red name, they both require a two-thirds majority, and they both impress new people just as much and make old people scoff at it being handed out too often, and they both are worth just as much when a Citizen casts a vote.

There is no practical way to make one worth more then the other, even if it was needed.

Also, Major Darling, Stop Changing Your Name!

Perhaps you have difficulty in telling the difference, but I assure you it is quite easy to spot it.

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I'm not saying it's difficult (well, for myself anyway), but it's one of the things you have to analyse in judging a debater applicant.

So basically only people from VV should become Civies?

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No, the rest of the D&D applies too. In the Mudpit you can discuss recent events, in the Academy you can discuss abstract political concepts and educate people about them, in the EMM you can discuss religion and debunk people's original opinions on them or simply discuss them, in the Athenaeum you can discuss science and there's a few more too, but they all apply; you can contribute in any part of the D&D.

Isnt Phalera/Opifex for this

Stavroforos said:

I think there should be some better representation of the Artifex on CdeC. Are any of them even Arties?

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Currently there are Artifexes (Word? Artifexi? Artifexii? Whatever...) in the CdeC. I'm positive there has always been modder representation in the CdeC. When I was a member years ago I remember I always appreciated having modders as members so modder candidates could be better assessed.

Or, perhaps better, maintain the same standards, but make the Artifex rank of higher value than the Civitate one.

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Uhh...what? And what do you base that opinion on? How do you compare intellectual contribution to TWC (non-modders) to artistic/technical contribution to TWC (modders)? How does one have an understanding of what is more of a contribution? Is a modder's contribution inherently more than a non-modders? And who decides this? I really don't understand the reasoning behind this. I understand that modders spend a great deal of time and effort making something that can actually be seen, used, enjoyed, and interacted with, but what you're asking for is devaluing intellectual debate. Why?

Stavroforos said:

There's no difficulty in assessing debating, or in debating.

Civitate should be the lowest rank of citizenship, as they aren't actually contributing anything to TWC. Content and Modders do.

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Again, where do you get this idea from? You've mentioned that articles written by members are worthy but why not intellectual debate? Some members spend hours replying to topics. While they might not be writing something that is a formal study of history, politics, philosophy, etc., they are taking the time to interact with other members, form proper arguments, and present their opinions in an intellectual, maybe even academic, way. Some Content members only have something published every fortnight or longer while non-Content members can post an untold number of intellectually stirring posts. Besides, I'd argue that more members view non-Content posts anyway. I'm not saying that Content publications/articles/whatever are less worthy but it should be noted that non-Content posts may be more appreciated by the TWC community.

Please, if you feel a member is less worthy of equal rank as an Artifex, please say so. I'll volunteer myself to your scrutiny. Disregard my Opifex and Content badges, including all contributions that gained me those. I'll represent myself only as a Civitate.

I simply don't feel as though putting some words together in debate should earn people the same rank as actual contributions, such as articles and mods. Especially on a website which is supposed to be about TWC.

Stavroforos said:

I simply don't feel as though putting some words together in debate should earn people the same rank as actual contributions, such as articles and mods. Especially on a website which is supposed to be about TWC.

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Well then, you can demote some of the most legendary members of the site then. I mean, tBP, Siblesz, GodEmperor Nicholas, the list could go on and on. The majority of TWC's "elite" or ranked for quite some time were not modders or not significant modders. They were simply people interested in the TW games and who showed themselves to be significantly contributing, intellectual members. TWC has always had a modding community, so, yes, TWC is about the TW games, but it has never been only about that either. Are you suggesting it is?

And many non-modders don't simply put words together in a debate. Is that what you consider intellectual discussion? If it is then you don't understand what it is and I therefore feel your opinion on this matter isn't valid. If that's not your understanding then please rephrase. Besides, "putting some words together in debate" isn't what makes a Civitate or Citizen. And I still volunteer myself to your scrutiny.

Stavroforos said:

I simply don't feel as though putting some words together in debate should earn people the same rank as actual contributions, such as articles and mods. Especially on a website which is supposed to be about TWC.

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http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/crusades.stm

http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/crusades.stm

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffragette

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffragette

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Please forgive the wik-pedia link, but tis just for localized reference....no

Lord Rahl said:

Well then, you can demote some of the most legendary members of the site then. I mean, tBP, Siblesz, GodEmperor Nicholas, the list could go on and on. The majority of TWC's "elite" or ranked for quite some time were not modders or not significant modders. They were simply people interested in the TW games and who showed themselves to be significantly contributing, intellectual members. TWC has always had a modding community, so, yes, TWC is about the TW games, but it has never been only about that either. Are you suggesting it is?

And many non-modders don't simply put words together in a debate. Is that what you consider intellectual discussion? If it is then you don't understand what it is and I therefore feel your opinion on this matter isn't valid. If that's not your understanding then please rephrase. And I still volunteer myself to your scrutiny.

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Indeed, it seems as though anyone who can get away with good debating skills can climb the ranks of TWC easily. I think most of us have come across TWC as a TW website or a modding website, regardless of what made us stay after that.

Of course not, I am simply exaggerating. However, I do not believe that debate should carry the same weight as things which actually contribute to this website. Sure, we should recognize good debaters, but being good in debate alone should not be enough to elevate someone to a position of superiority over the average TWC user.

Stavroforos said:

Indeed, it seems as though anyone who can get away with good debating skills can climb the ranks of TWC easily. I think most of us have come across TWC as a TW website or a modding website, regardless of what made us stay after that.

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Why do you insist on devaluing and exaggerating on the time and effort on intellectual debate? Now you're mentioning something about how good debaters can "get away" with climbing the ranks of of TWC. What does that mean? What ranks? I mean, you already have to be an exceptional poster to become a Citizen, and to become a Phalera you must go above and beyond. It's not like being an exceptional poster is some way to become a moderator or Divus. I don't know where you're getting these ideas. Do you think people think, "Instead of modding I'll just be a really good debater and then I can move up in rank and have cool badges!"? Rank shouldn't be about ego. It should be about pride and representation of the best of TWC.

If you've got a problem with some of TWC's Citizens then why not provide some examples? It's easy enough for you to say intellectual discussion isn't as worthy as other contributions but so far I've seen no verifiable examples.

Of course not, I am simply exaggerating. However, I do not believe that debate should carry the same weight as things which actually contribute to this website. Sure, we should recognize good debaters, but being good in debate alone should not be enough to elevate someone to a position of superiority over the average TWC user.

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Who says or where does it say that debate carries the same weight as other contributions. The rank is equivalent but that does not mean the contributions of members, whether they're a modder or not (or what their contributions are), are exactly equivalent. Not every candidate's case brought to the CdeC shows the same amount of contribution. That's why there is a discussion on the contributions and merits of the candidate. Some candidates have an overwhelming contribution and therefore pass easily. Others are not so easy to decide on and barely pass. Still others fail their votes because they do not contribute enough. As an ex-long time CdeC member, I know this.

So how does one, or you, decide what amount of modding is more of a contribution than non-modding? How does one, or you, decide how many exceptional discussions it takes to equal another's article? How do you know?

Besides, the difference between the average TWC member and a Citizen should be significant. There's a reason why some members have been here for years without even being considered for patronization. That doesn't mean they're "worse" than a Citizen. It simply means their contribution to the forums is not significant enough to merit recognition.