State of the Union

B. Ward · Feb 10, 2009

Any thoughts, concerns, questions, or suggestions you may have regarding the weekly competitions or the just the PoTW forum in general please voice them here. I will consider all opinions here, but that does not guarantee they will put into practice. I believe in the end I am doing what is fair and in the best interest of the PoTW forum. Even if you do not agree with the way I'm running the show, I ask that you keep this thread as respectful as possible. Every captain runs his ship a different way, and this is the way I run mine. But this is "our" community, and your voice matters to me.

-B. Ward, PoTW & UESW Manager

molls · Feb 10, 2009

Everythings looks so fresh, so clean, just like your Libertas vel Mors...
I have to say, when you do something, you do it right!:thumbsup4

Now as to the specified rules:

As you know I tend to create pictures that implement a segment or units from the Total War Series into other pictures, not belonging to the games.
As these TW segments are made entirely out of ingame Screenshots, the "screenshot" rule is fulfilled, however I am uncertain about the segments not belonging to TW.
Will I be allowed to continue merging these two categories?
(This case has to be added to the rules to clarify what's allowed and what's not)

Take this as a rather extreme Example:

An English General Unit out of M2TW into a screenshot from Mount&Blade.

B. Ward · Feb 10, 2009

mollsomg said:
Everythings looks so fresh, so clean, just like your Libertas vel Mors...
I have to say, when you do something, you do it right!:thumbsup4

Now as to the specified rules:

As you know I tend to create pictures that implement a segment or units from the Total War Series into other pictures, not belonging to the games.
As these TW segments are made entirely out of ingame Screenshots, the "screenshot" rule is fulfilled, however I am uncertain about the segments not belonging to TW.
Will I be allowed to continue merging these two categories?
(This case has to be added to the rules to clarify what's allowed and what's not)

Take this as a rather extreme Example:

An English General Unit out of M2TW into a screenshot from Mount&Blade.

Thanks for your kind words and constant support. My whole take on it is that we as a community have strayed too much from the actual premise on what this competition was built on which was the screenshots from the actual total war games. This is ultimately why the UESW competition was put into effect. Most of the time, a great artist able to manipulate an image would trump someone with a perhaps superior screenshot. This left a lot of members at a vast disadvantage. Winners of the UESW currently can't win an award for that competition. I only wanted to make it as fair for everyone who is constantly posting in this forum and supporting it. The reason I asked for the PoTW contestants to include the original in spoiler tags is to see the actual screenshot and how much is actually used in the the entry image. If the majority of the entry is from the actual screenshot then I don't have an issue with it. I hope this compromise was good enough for both those who are great at editing and those who lack the skills. I don't want to infringe on anyone's creativity, but we need to keep this as fair and fun for all. I hope to get a legistative proposal drawn up for a more refined points system so that those who enter in the UESW can have the opportunity to also win an award. Now, please remember that the weekly competitions aren't about the awards at all, but the sharing of our creativity and the sheer thrill of friendly competition, but I believe in acknowledgement to those who constantly are participating and keeping this forum alive.

Augustus Lucifer · Feb 14, 2009

I have a suggestion, Officer. I suggest that contestants incorporate this big pimpin into their screenshots for extra credit.

That is all.

(And I agree with the not transposing screenshots elsewhere rule, isn't much of a screenshot at all then.)

molls · Feb 14, 2009

But transposing screenshots elsewhere is exactly what creativity is... (and be it just a sky)

If we were only working with pure Total War screenshots, how boring would the competitions be?
You would see all the same blood, mud/dirt effects, alot of contrast and burn etc.
And above all, either 10 cavalry charges each week, or 10 extremly chaotic mass battles, or 10 screenshots of a march or battle line-up.

No thanks.

B. Ward · Feb 14, 2009

Augustus Lucifer said:
I have a suggestion, Officer. I suggest that contestants incorporate this big pimpin into their screenshots for extra credit.

That is all.

(And I agree with the not transposing screenshots elsewhere rule, isn't much of a screenshot at all then.)

I lol'd so hard when I saw that. Yes, putting me in your images gets you instant victory...this is truth right here.

mollsomg said:
But transposing screenshots elsewhere is exactly what creativity is... (and be it just a sky)

If we were only working with pure Total War screenshots, how boring would the competitions be?
You would see all the same blood, mud/dirt effects, alot of contrast and burn etc.
And above all, either 10 cavalry charges each week, or 10 extremly chaotic mass battles, or 10 screenshots of a march or battle line-up.

No thanks.

It's not so much as transposing images from elsewhere. That is exceptable. I just want the majority of the screen to be based from the total war series. It starts with a great base shot. The right angle at the right time. Added elements from other screens and images is fine with me.

lolgast · Feb 17, 2009

What do you think of having a non-total war screenshot competition once a month? Because pics of other games can be so cool to.

And maybe you should enlargen the new rules for the POTW for the coming weeks because I pmed like 4 or 5 people last week who forgot to post the unedited pic aswell.

Worm · Feb 20, 2009

The forum is really clean just like molls said, and i love it.

I have a small suggestion though, i think the pics that won the POTW before the medal system was put in should be allowed to be submitted again. Because Crypel and Argent Usher both have enough wins for a medal and i think they among others should have a chance to get a medal for their great pics

Vince Noir · Feb 20, 2009

B. Ward said:
This left a lot of members at a vast disadvantage. Winners of the UESW currently can't win an award for that competition. I only wanted to make it as fair for everyone who is constantly posting in this forum and supporting it.

So, under your own words, there is a skill to capturing a perfect moment as there is a skill to editing. I take the former to be more interesting and praise worthy. So why is there no award for UESW? Many people can't edit well with photoshop. While conversely, many can't take a good picture but are able edit everything they find. I know people should come for the 'spirit of good will' and provision of community support/involvement but how is it fair to give one an award and not the other?

Templar Knight · Feb 21, 2009

i propose a rule where screen shots from non-public released mods should not be aloud, since i think this gives an unfair advantage to the poster

for example the RS 2.0 screen shots in the UESW 49

D|major · Feb 23, 2009

Vince Noir said:
So, under your own words, there is a skill to capturing a perfect moment as there is a skill to editing. I take the former to be more interesting and praise worthy. So why is there no award for UESW? Many people can't edit well with photoshop. While conversely, many can't take a good picture but are able edit everything they find. I know people should come for the 'spirit of good will' and provision of community support/involvement but how is it fair to give one an award and not the other?

I think I get what you mean, Vince Noir, and I want to make a suggestion how B. Ward could integrate the UESW contest to the medal system:
Why don't give some 'medal credits' for every win. For example, if you win a PotW contest you get 3 credits and if you win an UESW contest you get 2 credits. To get the bronze medal you need to have at least 9 credits (3 PotW wins or 5 UESW wins or 1 PotW + 3 UESW wins etc.). For the silver medal you would need 27 credits and for gold 45 (if we keep the current award schedule). You can go even further and give 1 credit for the PotW runner-up etc.
Of course this will be a bit more complicated than how it's today, but pretty much everything is possible with this system

And it's easy for the PotW manager to track the awards. He will just have to keep a log about the credits of present PotW wins. :thumbsup2

Also, you can easily carry over the present PotW medal winner, since you can turn their wins into credits one-on-one. For UESW you can just start right now, with UESW 50 (it's a good number for beginning with this I think

).

What do you think?

edit: well that was rather long... I think I should continue working again, now... Not nice to write such essays on work :whistling

Garnier · Feb 23, 2009

I made the UESW as a non-competetive place for people who love finding good screenshots of the total war games to share their best ones. When we were first getting the medal set up, I chose not to have the UESW be included for this very reason, I didn't want the UESW to become competetive and have problems like the PotW has had since then.

I can't speak for him, but I think B. Ward shares this feeling.

One thing I wonder about is how ETW's naval screenshots will fit in. So far all screenshots pretty much have been land battles, and suddenly we'll be having a good chunk fill an entirely separate category. I'm interested to see how voting will be split between the two types of screenshots in the future.

D|major · Feb 23, 2009

Garnier said:
I made the UESW as a non-competetive place for people who love finding good screenshots of the total war games to share their best ones. When we were first getting the medal set up, I chose not to have the UESW be included for this very reason, I didn't want the UESW to become competetive and have problems like the PotW has had since then.

I can't speak for him, but I think B. Ward shares this feeling.

Fair enough... I understand that!
Vince Noir, on the other hand, has a point: with a new system it would be a fair competition for people with great editing skills and for those who capture the perfect scene.
Let's hear what B. Ward thinks about it. :thumbsup2

D|need

Vince Noir · Feb 23, 2009

D|need said:
Fair enough... I understand that!
Vince Noir, on the other hand, has a point: with a new system it would be a fair competition for people with great editing skills and for those who capture the perfect scene.
Let's hear what B. Ward thinks about it.

D|need

You make some very good points.

Garnier, I can see how competitiveness may be an issue. My query was in relation to fairness, and the obvious distinctions between a good shot and good editing. Both earn merit in their own right.

The only problem I can see arising from this is that there are some who may dominate both categories with ease...perhaps limitations into entering both competitions at the same time can be imposed to solve this.

Just some thoughts.

ColdFire · Feb 23, 2009

Garnier said:
I made the UESW as a non-competetive place for people who love finding good screenshots of the total war games to share their best ones. When we were first getting the medal set up, I chose not to have the UESW be included for this very reason, I didn't want the UESW to become competetive and have problems like the PotW has had since then.

I can't speak for him, but I think B. Ward shares this feeling.

One thing I wonder about is how ETW's naval screenshots will fit in. So far all screenshots pretty much have been land battles, and suddenly we'll be having a good chunk fill an entirely separate category. I'm interested to see how voting will be split between the two types of screenshots in the future.

Surely the gallery give users an opportunity to post screenshots without it being competitive, by definition the UESW is a contest, therefore it unavoidably has elements of competitiveness. I would propose that it was given an award, or at least counted towards the awards. Those who wish to show their art in an uncompetitive environment have the gallery for this.

Templar Knight said:
i propose a rule where screen shots from non-public released mods should not be aloud, since i think this gives an unfair advantage to the poster

for example the RS 2.0 screen shots in the UESW 49

I also agree with this, I remember when the N2TW mod got three POTW's in a row before it's release.

Brusilov · Feb 24, 2009

You can see the whole thing being unfair.

By the very nature of a winner being announced it becomes a competition.

With the POTW should we only allow people to post that have actually got a legal copy of PhotoShopCS or whatever software is being used? Surely, allowing illegal copies of software to be used (this is only an assumption) should be against forum rules? I've only briefly looked at the cost of CS4 and blanched at the thought of paying that much. After all any mention of pirating the TW games is not allowed (rightly so).

Is it also fair to compare different game engines. After all M2:TW is a lot 'prettier' than R:TW is (until RS2.0) is released. It's still possible to 'compose' a decent screen shot of a R:TW mod. So, if the competition was 'fair' then there would be a seperate thread for M2:TW and R:TW games. To me that is probably a lot more overhead for the organizers to cope with than they really need.

I've only posted screens RS2.0 that have been shown to the public already in previews. When I first posted the RS2.0 image I did send a PM to B. Ward explaining what it was from and enquiring if it was OK to post. I have many more better pictures to post from the RS2.0 beta but by thier very nature cannot be shown (yet).

B. Ward · Feb 24, 2009

I see this thread is getting some use finally. I am busy with work right now, but will address every post this evening when I get home.

molls · Feb 24, 2009

It's not about the mod or what kind of incredibly expensive editing tool you use, but how much skill you have in shooting the screenshot and editing it.
There are free programs and they totally suffice for PotW.

(That is when everyone follows the Anti Advertising Rule - regarding the unreleased mods)

Brusilov · Feb 24, 2009

mollsomg said:
It's not about the mod or what kind of incredibly expensive editing tool you use, but how much skill you have in shooting the screenshot and editing it.
There are free programs and they totally suffice for PotW.

(That is when everyone follows the Anti Advertising Rule - regarding the unreleased mods)

I think you misunderstand the reason behind the 'advertising' rule;

"Advertising for the PoTW and UESW competitions is allowed. Asking for votes in any way however is strictly prohibited and will result in actioin taken against those who these terms."

To me the above is trying to stop people sending PMs or posts in the forums in order to get votes. It's not about advertising the presence of a mod or beta.

All I've done so far is send a PM to B.Ward and Tone (from the RS) team letting them know what I had done - posting a screen from a beta. In the screens that I've posted there is no mention of RS2.0. Also both pictures I've submitted have already been shown to the public. I am also fairly sure that I've not asked anyone to vote for me.

I think that you may find that using a very expensive editing tool like PhotoShop CS puts the poster in a greater advantage than someone using Gimp (for instance). Obviously a highly skilled person can get more out of a product than an inexperienced person with the same product.

ColdFire · Feb 24, 2009

Brusilov said:
I think you misunderstand the reason behind the 'advertising' rule;
"Advertising for the PoTW and UESW competitions is allowed. Asking for votes in any way however is strictly prohibited and will result in actioin taken against those who these terms."

To me the above is trying to stop people sending PMs or posts in the forums in order to get votes. It's not about advertising the presence of a mod or beta.

All I've done so far is send a PM to B.Ward and Tone (from the RS) team letting them know what I had done - posting a screen from a beta. In the screens that I've posted there is no mention of RS2.0. Also both pictures I've submitted have already been shown to the public. I am also fairly sure that I've not asked anyone to vote for me.

I think that you may find that using a very expensive editing tool like PhotoShop CS puts the poster in a greater advantage than someone using Gimp (for instance). Obviously a highly skilled person can get more out of a product than an inexperienced person with the same product.

Not really sure about that, GIMP is very flexible. maybe you are right. I cannot see how you could prove someone has a legal copy however.

Also, why are picture in poll thread no longed listed with their title, but called submission 1,2,3,4...?

molls · Feb 26, 2009

Brusilov said:
I think you misunderstand the reason behind the 'advertising' rule;
"Advertising for the PoTW and UESW competitions is allowed. Asking for votes in any way however is strictly prohibited and will result in actioin taken against those who these terms."

Haha, I am the reason this rule is written and established in that way

.

To me the above is trying to stop people sending PMs or posts in the forums in order to get votes.

correct.

It's not about advertising the presence of a mod or beta.

That was not my point.
There have been cases of people putting up screenshots of new mods and got the entire mod subforum to vote for this pic via PM/posts.

Advertising mods etc is fine of course, I should have explained further what I meant.

B. Ward said:
The reason I asked for the PoTW contestants to include the original in spoiler tags is to see the actual screenshot and how much is actually used in the the entry image.

If the majority of the entry is from the actual screenshot then I don't have an issue with it.

Is this some kind of a rule or not?
Example Vlad Felix, very atmospheric stuff but his screenshots are mostly Total War unrelated.

ColdFire · Feb 27, 2009

mollsomg said:
Is this some kind of a rule or not?
Example Vlad Felix, very atmospheric stuff but his screenshots are mostly Total War unrelated.

I also think while Vlad Felix has very good screenshots, his most recent two are >1/8th TW picture. I am not sure if the backing picture are by him or not.

Baron Vlad Felix · Feb 27, 2009

@ColdFire
wheter picture?
do you think screenshots is not my?

@mollsomg
Total War unrelated.?
I do not understand,others working same!
in all my picture is something that is connected with Total War,or units,or a background is from the game,majority of-dlv mod !
I do not know why my image is big problem,I do like others do!
and the other I see that people love my pictures.
sorry if something's ...?,but I do not see anything that I do wrong!
Salut.

Agisilaos · Feb 27, 2009

i believe that since Vlad images have something from the total war games they are fine for the competition. they are not way off. if this thing bothers some people, then there should be a rule that mentions that only total war series image can be edited without any other image which does not belong to the total war games.
if that rule exists and i have not noticed it, then excuse my post

ColdFire · Feb 28, 2009

They fit within the rules, but they do been them, the last two POTW entries by him have had >1/9 total war image.

@Vlad IV Felix, I know the pictures are your, are the backgrounds your? (You can use other peoples background, I was only wondering)

Baron Vlad Felix · Feb 28, 2009

Aha...I understand question.
yes 9 backgrounds is not my,55 is whit my backgrounds,but each picture is connected with what TW!
(You can use other peoples background, I was only wondering)
friend I'm very sorry but this work other a same!
even see images in general are not what they are doing these people,these are pictures where you can find from net!...it happened, I see,and nobody did not react!...even I think that some win and to poll!...or put other people's images or add something!...and nobody react!
but if I put a background,I making background whit filters colors and other things and put some my stuff from TW-mods,and work on the picture for hours!!!!......I do not put other people's pictures,like copy and past in poll(perhaps happened whit others!)!
go look around a bit!,you may to see that others are working to!
and see a little in past,and you will see that someone use other peoples picture and put little filters,and then put the poll(and win!!).
look around!

ColdFire · Feb 28, 2009

Vlad IV Felix said:
Aha...I understand question.
yes 9 backgrounds is not my,55 is whit my backgrounds,but each picture is connected with what TW!
(You can use other peoples background, I was only wondering)
friend I'm very sorry but this work other a same!
even see images in general are not what they are doing these people,these are pictures where you can find from net!...it happened, I see,and nobody did not react!...even I think that some win and to poll!...or put other people's images or add something!...and nobody react!
but if I put a background,I making background whit filters colors and other things and put some my stuff from TW-mods,and work on the picture for hours!!!!......I do not put other people's pictures,like copy and past in poll(perhaps happened whit others!)!
go look around a bit!,you may to see that others are working to!
and see a little in past,and you will see that someone use other peoples picture and put little filters,and then put the poll(and win!!).
look around!

Gahh, that was hard to read, my point is, is yes it is within the rules, but pictures you have been posting feature very little from the game, it is mostly a very nice background with a soldier from TW added in, they look great, and I like them...but, for the competition it mean people are mostly voting on the amazing background, not the TW part. Anyway, it is up to B.Ward to decide how he set's the rules.

Baron Vlad Felix · Feb 28, 2009

we better to finish the discussion,here is who will that decision...
I would like to peacefully end discussion,and that all remains well!
and look around!
Salut friend!

Argent Usher · Feb 28, 2009

pling plong my two cents.....

IMO the POTW is and were near ever an BUDDY/POPULARITY VOTE Competition and only all the contributors (mostly the main voters each week) and the voters can change this.
Well we can start to make new "better" rules, try to lower exploits but finally only the community is able to make it to a true competition.
I was absent for a long while and i had also written why I no longer am so happy to be a contributor.
We can discuss here about how much a pic must be related to TW (I tested how far one can go with my own pic's each week and was always eager to Garnier's response :tongue:

) and pondering whether everyone has a legal PS version (I can say as far i have seen i am able to recreate all POTW pics with GIMP) but at the end if the voting is biased it makes no sense to discuss about it and is a waste of time.
Generell if someone think we make here something special - i suggest him go to an art site like deviantART and have a look it is a great ego downer and I even use it from time to time.

If you want a shiny exploited medal well there are enough possibities but such a thing wouldn't make me happy.

Instead you should try to help each other, explains what you have done if you've won and you will all be better and push your skill.

So finally i will try to be here from time to time and have a look at the POTW and the little sister and surely post some pics but just for entertainment or own advertising.

Regards A.U.

molls · Feb 28, 2009

Argent Usher said:
We can discuss here about how much a pic must be related to TW

It seems none of you guys noticed that the first 3 posts in this thread deal exactly with this topic.
As I started about Vlad, I quoted the relative sentence of B.Ward to this whole issue...
We just need a "confirmed" or "denied".

B. Ward said:
The reason I asked for the PoTW contestants to include the original in spoiler tags is to see the actual screenshot and how much is actually used in the the entry image.

If the majority of the entry is from the actual screenshot then I don't have an issue with it.

I hope this compromise was good enough for both those who are great at editing and those who lack the skills.

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