Scottish lancer cavalry of the British civil wars

AlphaDelta · Sep 8, 2008

As I understand they wore burgonet helmets, and carried lances. I presume they wore breast and back plates.

Does anyone have any images or descriptions of them? This was the best I can find, and I'm not really sure if they're convenanters.

Cheers

AlphaDelta · Sep 8, 2008

Here are some convenanter infantry.

BritPatriot1815 · Sep 8, 2008

Not very regular uniforms are they lol. But the berets make it look good

Der Angelsachse · Sep 8, 2008

BritPatriot1815 said:
Not very regular uniforms are they lol. But the berets make it look good

Strangely enough the Scots were the most "uniformed" men of the period, wearing predominantly Hodden Grey tunics and breeches with their Blue Bonnets

A few did wear red tunics, but they were the men who had been fighting in Ireland and had been issued clothes by the English.

Oh and AD just as we're on the topic of Scots. If you do include any Pikeman in the Covenanters army that spawns, they shouldn't have any armour upgrades as the Scots pike never went into battle with it.

Samuel Adams · Sep 8, 2008

Yes but isn't the name of the game to change history? Just a thought. This mod, simply put, looks amazing. Looks like you're well on your way.

AlphaDelta · Sep 8, 2008

Oh and AD just as we're on the topic of Scots. If you do include any Pikeman in the Covenanters army that spawns, they shouldn't have any armour upgrades as the Scots pike never went into battle with it.

For King or Country won't have any armour upgrades. The covenanter pikes seem to be wearing sleeveless buffcoats unless I'm much mistaken?

Yes but isn't the name of the game to change history? Just a thought. This mod, simply put, looks amazing. Looks like you're well on your way.

I'm trying to make the mod follow history as closely as is possible with the med2 engine.

Cheers

Dux Eboracum · Sep 9, 2008

AD,

I'm on holiday and away from my books for a week or so. I have limited access to internet.

I have a picture of a Scot's Lancer from 1644 at home, but from memory he isn't wearing any back or breastplate. The lancers really weren't that great cavalry and if I remember correctly they only served in the second line at Marston Moor because of their weak horses. The Parliamentarians took the brunt of the Royalist charges and then the Scots piled in tothe melee.

The picture you have with that lancer is a command group for the parliamentarians- and he's the standard bearer. Cavalry standards were carried on lances at this period.

In this war it seems there was a good deal less armour worn than many people think- hence the fame and impact of Cromwell's 'Ironsides'. If you ever find the time it might be prudent in version two to add solely buffcoated cavalry to both sides. (if you haven't already- I haven't got to the other threads yet.)

AlphaDelta · Sep 9, 2008

Dux,

Thanks for taking the time out of your holiday to make that post. It got me thinking.

I'll wait on the scots cavalry for a while, but including lesser armoured Parliamentarian (Royalists already have this unit) cavalry is a fantastic idea. It'll allow me to simulate the inferior nature of the Parliamentarian cavalry throughout 42 in comparison to the cavaliers of the time.

I checked my osprey books and found a few pictures of buffcoat only units. One wearing a combed burgonet and one wearing a tribar pot. So what I'm going to do is the following:

1) Make a buffcoat only parliamentarian cavalry unit. Some of the men will have felt hats, some will have tribars. Two will wear sleeved buffcoats, two will wear a sleeveless version. They'll wear the turned-down boots and orange waist sashes.

2) I'm going to make a new lifeguard unit. It's going to be a more elite Parliamentarian ironside/harquebusier. A combination of tri-bars and the continental style helmets I gave to the royalist lifeguard. All in back and breast plates, with one man wearing thigh tassets. The most important thing is that this unit will carry a carbine. This unit will bridge the gap between the full bore Royalist harquebusiers and the pistol armed cavalry on both sides. I will probably give this unit armour piercing weapons such as military picks and light axes.

The new poorly armoured parliamentarian unit will be available from tier 1 cavalry buildings and will not be available at tier 2. This will ensure that you see it en-mass in the early part of the campaign, but later on it'll become a rarity.
The lifeguard unit will become the new bodyguard for Parliament and will be available at tier 2 only.
The Parliamentarian pistol armed ironsides I already made will be available at both tier 1 and 2.
Hasslerigs lobsters will only be available from London.

Cheers

Samuel Adams · Sep 10, 2008

I have an old British-published "Military History" at home from the 1980's. As it's now open source (usable as long as no commercial license) AFAIK, and from re-enactors (the pics,) I'll scan/upload them if I can find that magazine.

The subjects of these articles is the trained bands and the buffcoat troops. I was astounded when I read how hardy the 'armor' was, being only leather.

AlphaDelta · Sep 12, 2008

Any research you can post is greatly appreciated.

The subjects of these articles is the trained bands and the buffcoat troops. I was astounded when I read how hardy the 'armor' was, being only leather.

Yes, and what was also amazing was the price. It was more expensive than any other part of the kit a harquebusier would wear and carry.

Destraex · Sep 12, 2008

AlphaDelta · Sep 12, 2008

Thank you Destraex!

If this picture is accurate then it seems that these covenanters wore breast/back plates, a mixture of bonnets and faceless burgonets. Some also wear sleeveless buffocats and waist sashes.

Cheers

Destraex · Sep 12, 2008

Something from a wargamer called Besilarius on another site I go too...... Don't know if this is accurate given the accounts given in other text.....

An early book by George McDonald Frasier (editor of the Flashman papers) was on the raiding that took place along the English Scottish border. Its title was The Steel Bonnets.
There were no illustrations that I recall, but he quoted various accounts that described the reivers.
The thing was that these were not organized forces, so they had no uniforms or equipment. Everyone came as they were. (Something like the farmers at Lexington and Concord.) Just about any possible look occurred.
Typical was a helmet (or bonnet), sword, dirk, targe (small shield), a lance, and a leather vest (if they were lucky). These reivers relied on speed and surprise.
The lance was just as useful in driving cattle (much like any subsistence farmers, cattle was wealth). Since there was no drill or training for combat, it is probable the lance was more for show in a confrontation than actual combat use.
These riders should be treated as irregular raiders, not real combat troops.
Something along the lines of Bash-Bazooks or native Americans.

Destraex · Sep 12, 2008

http://www.geocities.com/beckster05/Dunbar/DbArmies.html
"The first line of Scottish cavalry was often lancers, who using long spears, could charge with devastating effect. "

redcoat · Sep 12, 2008

A Scots lancer (figure 3) from the Second Civil War.

He is wearing a Scots blue bonnet and plaid over a long buff coat.

Phunkracy · Sep 12, 2008

http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scottishlancervf6.jpg
here you are ;P is there any difference between each association's militias?

Destraex · Sep 12, 2008

one sec....

Destraex · Sep 12, 2008

So Scots Cavalry Lancers seemed to be mounted on poor quality horses with buffcoats and lances seeming to be predominant.
Headwear it seems could be a helmet or bonnet.
Even on their poor quality horses (which I would not be surprised if was a good quality horse due to the rustling) they seem to have been some of the most feared cavalry
in England.

Its also interesting to note that detachments of Halberdiers were raised!!!

Phunkracy · Sep 12, 2008

Destraex said:

Damn! You stole it from meh! :tongue:

Good job

What's the title of that Osprey? I don't have it ;/

Destraex · Sep 12, 2008

men at arms 331 - scots armies of the english civil war
Its actually got the pic redcoat posted in it. But I did not scan that as its already posted.
I just made your pic easier to see actually Phunkracy..... hope you do not mind. What book is the pic from?

BTW in some of my other books scots longbow mercenaries are in evidence for the swedish army.... was this the case in the ECW?

Also were Scottish troops considered good or poor to have in your army in the Englsih Civil War?

AlphaDelta · Sep 12, 2008

Thanks gents. There is some great information here.

If it wasn't for the long boots, F3: Lancer could pass as a pikeman! I have a pretty decent idea of how I will model them now.

Cheers and thanks.

Phunkracy · Sep 13, 2008

Destraex said:
men at arms 331 - scots armies of the english civil war
Its actually got the pic redcoat posted in it. But I did not scan that as its already posted.
I just made your pic easier to see actually Phunkracy..... hope you do not mind. What book is the pic from?

BTW in some of my other books scots longbow mercenaries are in evidence for the swedish army.... was this the case in the ECW?

Also were Scottish troops considered good or poor to have in your army in the Englsih Civil War?

(first of all-no problem, it was just unfunny joke

)
Scottish mercenaries were famous for their superior firepower and were considered to be the best shooters all over Europe. Of course, most of the covenant forces were just militias, but I think that Scots should have few elite shooters formations (Firelocks for example?).

Also, bow was still in use in East and South Europe. West Europe resigned from bow, as it was cheaper and faster to train muskeeters than archers.
As it turned out-unjustly. Bows still had two big advantages over muskets- accuracy and firing rate.

AFAIK Scots were still using bows until second half of XVIIth century.

Phunkracy · Sep 13, 2008

Scottish mercenaries from Deluge (polish-swedish war during 30YW, these ones are actually polish)

AlphaDelta · Sep 16, 2008

Let's not get too carried-away. Scots in FKoC are just a spawned stack.

Cheers

Destraex · Sep 17, 2008

So no scottish mercenary armies?
oh well.

AlphaDelta · Sep 18, 2008

Scottish lancers.

Destraex · Sep 18, 2008

They look good as usual.
Perhaps the lances should be a little longer?

Scottish Lancers seem to be left over from the old Dragoon concept of mounted infantry. Initially these seem to be horse with cut down pikes combined with horse using muskets.

Thus you dismount them and you had a foot unit again, pikemen and musketeers
THe idea being you could move whole units really fast around the battlefield and then have them hold fast like infantry.

Offcourse if you remain mounted with the cutdown Pike you become a lancer of sorts

AlphaDelta · Sep 19, 2008

Perhaps the lances should be a little longer?

It's a flat perspective, there's no possible way you can know the length of the lances from that render.

Scottish Lancers seem to be left over from the old Dragoon concept of mounted infantry. Initially these seem to be horse with cut down pikes combined with horse using muskets.

The dragoon concept wasn't old at all. Infact it was thoroughly modern at this time being no more than 40 years at the start of the ECW. Dragoon's were in use for hundreds of years after the ECW.

Initially these seem to be horse with cut down pikes combined with horse using muskets.

Lancers were mounted pikemen? Where did you read this? The osprey book on the Scots of the ECW make no mention to this being the case.

Cheers

Destraex · Sep 19, 2008

sorry alphadelta.... just ignore all of my post above.
I was at work and pushed for time.....

Flat perspective.... got it

You are correct. Dragoon concept was new. However is was around in the 30 yrs war. So I suppose it depends on what you call old. If you really want to get puritan

we can talk about mounted infantry throughout time. Including the vikings and their mounted raids.

The mounted dragoon thing I just assumed based on what I was reading and made the connection myself. So ignore that. Was just me thinking out loud. I really would like to know why only the scots were using lances at this time though. Although it is likely just because of cattle raiding.

AlphaDelta · Sep 19, 2008

I was at work and pushed for time.....

No worries, sorry if I sounded 'snappy'. It's been a heck of a long week.

we can talk about mounted infantry throughout time. Including the vikings and their mounted raids.

That's true, plus you could say that the dragoon concept extends from the mounted crossbow although I believe they fired from the saddle.

I really would like to know why only the scots were using lances at this time though. Although it is likely just because of cattle raiding.

What's really strange is that as the war progresses they move away from the pistol, and more towards the lance. From Osprey:

"However, in later years the proportion of lancers increased dramatically and all of the cavalry levied in 1650 were ordered to provide themselves with lances."

Cheers

Scottish lancer cavalry of the British civil wars

Scottish lancer cavalry of the British civil wars

For Country..

For Country..

You're gonna need a bigger boat.

May the Force be with you.

Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn.

For Country..

I'll be back!

For Country..

Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn.

For Country..

I love the smell of napalm in the morning.

For Country..

I love the smell of napalm in the morning.

I love the smell of napalm in the morning.

Here's looking at you, kid!

You can't handle the truth!

I love the smell of napalm in the morning.

I love the smell of napalm in the morning.

You can't handle the truth!

I love the smell of napalm in the morning.

For Country..

You can't handle the truth!

You can't handle the truth!

For Country..

I love the smell of napalm in the morning.

For Country..

I love the smell of napalm in the morning.

For Country..

I love the smell of napalm in the morning.

For Country..

Join the Total War Center!

Rome on TWC Wiki

Total War Center on the Wiki

Total War Series on TWC Wiki

Modding Information on TWC Wiki

Medieval II on TWC Wiki

Wiki Links

Thread Statistics

Site Polls

Axis & Allies

Battleship

Checkers

Chess

Clue

Go

Monopoly

Risk

Stratego

Other