Is Usury Immoral?

Is Usury Immoral?

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In the old days it certainly was

Old Testament


The Prophet Ezekiel includes usury in a list of “abominable things,” along with rape, murder, robbery and idolatry. Ezekiel 18:19-13.


Jews are forbidden to lend at interest to one another. Exodus 22:25; Deuteronomy 23:19-20, Leviticus 25:35-37.

1750 B.C.


The Code of Hammurabi regulates the interest that can be charged on a loan. Historical records indicate that many loans were made below the legal limit.

800-600 B.C.


Both Plato and Aristotle believed usury was immoral and unjust. The Greeks at first regulate interest, and then deregulate it. After deregulation, there was so much unregulated debt that Athenians were sold into slavery and threatened revolt.

443 B.C.


The Romans adopt the “Twelve Tables” and cap interest at 8 1/3%.

88 B.C.


The Roman usury rate is raised to 12%.

533 A.D.


The Roman “Code of Justinian” sets a graduated maximum interest rate that did not go over 8 1/3 % for loans to ordinary citizens. This law lasts until 1543 A.D.

800 A.D.


Charlemagne outlaws interest throughout his empire.

11th century


In England, the taking of any interest at all is punishable by taking the usurer’s land and chattels.

Medieval Canon Law


Usury is punishable by ex-communication.

Medieval Roman Law


Usurer’s are fined 4X the amount taken, while robbery is penalized at twice the amount taken.

1306-1321


Dante pens “The Inferno,” in which he places usurers at the lowest ledge in the seventh circle of hell – lower than murderers.

1553-1558


During the reign of Queen Mary, English Parliament again disallows the collection of interest.

1570


During the Reign of Queen Elizabeth, interest rates in England are limited to under 10%. This law lasts until 1854.

1713


Adoption in England of the “Statue of Anne,” an Act to reduce interest rates.

USURY

From the beginning of their tenure in Europe (and elsewhere), many Jews were merchants. This provided a base as they began expanding into money lending activities, including usury. Usury is defined most simply as money lending for profit. In medieval times it was universally condemned as a heinous and immoral act by the Christian church. The act of usury was deemed a mortal sin, and its practitioner's path of greed was understood to end in eternal damnation in Hell. The idea of profiteering from someone else’s' need -- possibly desperate -- for money was believed by medieval Christianity to be the antithesis of compassion, generosity, and charity. Christ was upheld as an example of poverty, non-materialism, and abstinence. Common wisdom asserted that those who had surplus money to lend in the first place were obsessed with greed and avarice and needed no more -- certainly by usury -- for their coffers. And making money for doing absolutely nothing (except having the money available) went against Christian medieval understandings of decency, justice, honest work, and morality. In essence, usury was perceived as a crass system of exponential exploitation by which the already wealthy could get increasingly wealthier for little more than the fact of their wealth in the first place. (In the nineteenth century, notes Abram Leon, Karl Marx argued that "usury centralized money wealth, where the means of production are disjointed. It does not alter the modes of production but attaches itself to it as a parasite, and makes it miserable. It sucks blood, kills its nerve and compels production to proceed under even more disheartening conditions." [LEON, p. 150]

usury.gif


Usury a short history of banking

In the old days there was no paper money. The accepted token of exchange was precious metal minted into coins by the Church and the Crown. Because there was only a limited amount of gold and silver available, the economic life of the nation had a certain regularity.

An even greater restriction existed throughout Christendom. This was a prohibition against usury, or charging interest. The Church held it to be a grave sin and the code was upheld by the civil powers. There were harsh penalties for those who broke the law.

The regulation of usury was to prevent the separation of money from reality. Money is not a good, it is a measure. It is fraud to pretend otherwise, and constitutes theft. Usury is making money from lending money; it is making money from nothing. This is exactly what is happening today on a colossal scale.
 
it really depends on the extent-- Usury to the tune of 20 and 40 percent is insane and slavery by any other name-- usury to the tune of 5- 12 percent is how banks make a living and allows the economy to move forward.
 
Rush said:
In the old days it certainly was

So?

If we didn't have usury, nobody would ever loan money, which would mean things like, for example, nobody would be able to buy a house until they were 50.

Unless the government made loans at no interest, effectively replacing the private banks with a federally subsidized system.

Big government, right up Rush's alley.
 
Unless the government made loans at no interest, effectively replacing the private banks with a federally subsidized system.

Big government, right up Rush's alley.

Running our monetary system is one of the few powers delegated to the Federal Gov by the constitution. Hence I have no problem with this. In fact I posted a video suggesting just that.

And usury is illegal in most states, is it not? (usury as excessive interest, not interest itself)

Yes it is. But how much of you income goes to taxes? And where does this money go? We are being used people. Isnt the government paying excessive interest on the money it borrows from the Fed? And why is it borrowing money when it can print it itself? When the government asks the Fed for a loan they simply print it up or transfer some digits to the proper accounts.


Almost everyone in the US is in debt up to their ears. And they think this is wonderful. Few nowdays own their homes. I think most people cant see the forest through the trees.

Reminds me of one of my favorite old Kinks tunes

Shangri-La - The Kinks

Now that youve found your paradise
This is your kingdom to command
You can go outside and polish your car
Or sit by the fire in your shangri-la
Here is your reward for working so hard
Gone are the lavatories in the back yard
Gone are the days when you dreamed of that car
You just want to sit in your shangri-la

Put on your slippers and sit by the fire
Youve reached your top and you just cant get any higher
Youre in your place and you know where you are
In your shangri-la
Sit back in your old rocking chair
You need not worry, you need not care
You cant go anywhere
Shangri-la, shangri-la, shangri-la

The little man who gets the train
Got a mortgage hanging over his head
But hes too scared to complain
cos hes conditioned that way
Time goes by and he pays off his debts
Got a tv set and a radio
For seven shillings a week
Shangri-la, shangri-la, shangri-la, shangri-la, shangri-la, shangri-la

And all the houses in the street have got a name
cos all the houses in the street they look the same
Same chimney pots, same little cars, same window panes
The neighbors call to tell you things that you should know
They say their lines, they drink their tea, and then they go
They tell your business in another shangri-la
The gas bills and the water rates, and payments on the car
Too scared to think about how insecure you are
Life aint so happy in your little shangri-la
Shangri-la, shangri-la la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la

Put on your slippers and sit by the fire
Youve reached your top and you just cant get any higher
Youre in your place and you know where you are
In your shangri-la
Sit back in your old rocking chair
You need not worry, you need not care
You cant go anywhere
Shangri-la, shangri-la, shangri-la, shangri-la, shangri-la, shangri-la
 
The 'Quote-a-Lyric' game..
Money, get away
Get a good job with more pay and your O.K.
Money it's a gas
Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash
New car, caviar, four star daydream,
Think I'll buy me a football team
Money get back
I'm all right Jack keep your hands off my stack.
Money it's a hit
Don't give me that do goody good ********
I'm in the hi-fidelity first class traveling set
And I think I need a Lear jet
Money it's a crime
Share it fairly but don't take a slice of my pie
Money so they say
Is the root of all evil today
But if you ask for a rise it's no surprise that they're
giving none away
Roger Waters.
 
Well heres another. The Beatles Taxman

Let me tell you how it will be
There's one for you, nineteen for me
'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman

Should five per cent appear too small
Be thankful I don't take it all
'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah I'm the taxman

If you drive a car, I'll tax the street,
If you try to sit, I'll tax your seat.
If you get too cold I'll tax the heat,
If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet.

Don't ask me what I want it for
If you don't want to pay some more
'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman

Now my advice for those who die
Declare the pennies on your eyes
'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman
And you're working for no one but me.
 
It depends on the interest rate. Usury is not immoral by definition.
i agree, the practice itself is fine but then you see companies charging upwards of 30% and you think...whoa
 
If it is, then the entire western world is going to hell.
 
Usury is... interest?

Can someone put up an example of usury, I'm not fully understanding it in context.

So if I lend Johnny 2 dollars for one week and demand 2.14 back at the end of the week... that's usury?

No it's not immoral, Yes it's wrong and Yes it's a pain in the ass.
 
How about compound interest? In 30 years what is the actual price you will pay for say a 300,000 dollar house?
depends, its not even the amount so much its more the despicable companies that pray on those who have no other option, you must have those ads in the US that are offering loans to people who have 'been refused elsewhere'. theres a reason these people shouldn't be allowed loans for god sake they're clearly not going to keep to the payments you just want to take their house in the end
 
Intentionally ripping people off with insane interest rates is immoral I suppose. I mean, who would want it done to themselves? But I'm sure most logical people can see that ursury to some extent is necessary for the survival of banks and so on so we can keep borrowing money so we HAVE PLASMA SCREEN NOW and so on. Or maybe we should just wait until we've earned enough to pay for something in full? Who's to say? (Not me, I never paid attention in economics class).
 
Usury is... interest?

Can someone put up an example of usury, I'm not fully understanding it in context.

So if I lend Johnny 2 dollars for one week and demand 2.14 back at the end of the week... that's usury?

No it's not immoral, Yes it's wrong and Yes it's a pain in the ass.

Usury is loaning money at really high interest rates. All loans have an interest rate, this is how a bank for example would make their profit. Now, if that bank gives a crazy unmerciful interest rate it would be usury.
 
Islam also has choice words on usury little different from the other Abrahamic faiths.

Al-Baqarah 2:275 said:
Those who charge usury are in the same position as those controlled by the devil's influence. This is because they claim that usury is the same as commerce. However, God permits commerce, and prohibits usury. Thus, whoever heeds this commandment from his Lord, and refrains from usury, he may keep his past earnings, and his judgment rests with God. As for those who persist in usury, they incur Hell, wherein they abide forever


Well, it exists... and it does suck... but it doesn't seem evil to be forced to pay interest.

So I guess we should just shun being bankers, etc.
 
if the intrest are only for the cost of running the bank
than its okay, the bank clerks need an income

the loan itself should be backed by the loantaker with securities.
so buying a house is a good idea because normaly the value of homes is stable and if the guy can't pay its loan back the bank has the house as security

but giving a person 20000$ to buy consume products that lose thier value (like cars, PC, clothes) etc. is a bad idea if the person got no securities.

taking a loan is like useing a timemachine,
you take the money you will earn in future
for a today loan + intrests
it works as long as you really earn the money in future
but economic growth is limited you can't live that way forever


and thats the problem with government making debts
they take your children and your childrens children as hostages,
to pay back the money they spend today

which means government has to spend more money on loans and intrest in future and have to reduce other spendings (wages of thier employees) or they have to rise the taxes which leaves you less money.
 
usury is outlawed in the middle east. As a result they have maong the lowest foreign direct investment in the world. They have a ban on riba (usury) and you can't allocate risk to maximize investment. The countries with the losest interpretation of the riba ban tend to be the gulf states. Coincidence?
 
interest is necessary for modern economy-- but excessive interest has no place at all, and I admire the law itself, on principle ( outlawing of usury)
 

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Rush Limbaugh,
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Chaigidel,
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