What's it going to take to fix Shogun 2?

What's it going to take to fix Shogun 2?

Too many features will be too bad. Empire was great in ideas but not so in implementation.

Screeching Women, Naked Fanatics, Head Hurlers... Are you serious ?

stewie39 said:
Do you have an idea, or are you waiting on your misty mountain for me to give you one?
Click to expand...

My idea for the game to be great is just to fix whatever bugs (SP/MP still exist) and also dx11 features/multicore support fully implement.

The rest ? No thank you.

Why break an already good game ?
 
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LestaT said:
Too many features will be too bad. Empire was great in ideas but not so in implementation.

Screeching Women, Naked Fanatics, Head Hurlers... Are you serious ?
Click to expand...

I almost forgot because you don't agree with everything I say you going to be an :poop: whenever I write something you don't like. Good luck with that.

BTW I did say We must totally put Screeching Women, Naked Fanatics, Head Hurlers into Shogun 2 NOW! TODAY! yesterday. Or was I rather giving an example of unit variety? Let me think given my total lack of posts here, I guess I can totally understand how you got where your brain cell took you.



"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go."
-Oscar Wilde
 
Guys and Gals what are your ideas on how to create a better game, a game that is as interesting the 10th time around as it is the 1st time? It has been done before, and it will be done again.

This explains itself sufficiently without any need for me to feel self righteous and grandiloquent.

"Looks Like something caught her." David Caruso:cool:

:gnight:

"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go."
-Oscar Wilde
Try the veal:laughter:
 
Aeneas Veneratio said:
How would adding that be aligned with keeping the historical accuracy? It seems you and OP want to add features, which will destroy the ability to immerse yourself into a Japanese civil war in the 16th century due to too many surreal units/traits.
About your idea about a different start for every faction, I have to ask -What should have changed in the historical conditions for a clan that every start needs to be different? If CA ever apply that notion to their game, I hope they will make it a DLC (so I don't have to get it). I rather not see a return of units like incendiary pigs, massive armies of war hounds and battlefield gladiators (although the battlefield ninjas are already stretching it).
Click to expand...

I can understand your point at wanting to keep these games as historical as possible, but not all people, myself included, want that. As soon as you start playing the game it stops being historical and starts becoming your version of history. In Rome for example, you can never perfectly mirror the exploits of the Roman Empire, so why not accept that and allow for the addition of units/traits that embrace that each player wants to make it their own version of history.

I'm not implying that silly units should be added, but what if the player wants to field gladiators in his army, with incendry pigs there is a historical account of them (or something similar, maybe oxen) being used so why not allow the player to recreate that or use such tactics as he sees fit.

It's each to their own but save strong historical accuracy for the mods and allow the vanilla version to have new and innovative features. At the end of the day we can simply mod out those we don't like.

P.S
To answer the FP, I think something needs to be done about the blandness of each clan. By and large they are all just recoloured copies with slightly different stats which makes each play through (apart from the Oda) very similar. I'm not saying to add units that didn't exist or have no historical basis, but surely something can be done?

Also, historical campaigns (similar to TATW's fellowship campaign or maybe the historical battles in Rome:Alexander) to allow players to take their favourite clan and go through their historical rise/fall. Certainly the Oda, Takeda, Uesugi, Tokugama and Azai clans would have several interesting campaigns, and if that could be supplemented by cutscenes to fill in the gaps between the battles then it would add a lot of replayability to it, and allow those who aren't so clued up about the Sengoku era to learn a bit more.
 
I like stewie's ramblings, with all the difficult words he used. I have no idea whether he's serious or just trying to troll. =D

but to get on the topic. Since everyone have different tastes and opinions on what needs to be 'fixed', there's one simple solution to appease most of the people:

"MAKE EVERYTHING MODDABLE".

okay, maybe some mechanics are hardcoded in the exe, so it's not possible, but at least CA can "MAKE IT AS MODDABLE AS RTW".
 
To the OP

The problem with this game (one which is due entirely to the setting) is that it takes place within one nation. It's like creating a game based on Britain during the Roman Period and complaining that all the tribes have the same units. There are a few variations you can implement, improved units, different clans having easier access to imported guns and the buildings available in the starting provinces, but by and large. There is limited variation due to the setting so there is only so much variation you can include in the game.

As for the notion of ghosts:

An interesting idea for a mod maybe, but first and foremost, lets keep this rooted in the real world. The Japanese may have believed in spirits/ghosts et al, but in no historical accounts or writings did such things ever take part in battles. As someone else said, "Shogun Total War not Total War: Ghostbusters"



The notion of "fixing" is entirely down to ones opinion on the game. For me it should be "improve" not "fix" but that matter is irrelevant.


Zukenft: You are spot on with saying that the only way to properly fix/improve this game is to increase the number of things we can mod. Mod's are the only way to silence fanboys/haters/those who simply wish an aspect was different.


P.S
Please stop using multiple posts, simply edit your previous posts rather than adding new ones. It might be a hassle but its what we all do.
 
Just how many more units can u add? I mean surely most of the weapons used in the period have there own unit e.g. katana samurai, naginata samurai. I mean the difference between the katana cavalry and yari cavalry in appearance is minimal, the yari even have swords as their back up. This is a game about the Japanese civil war. People who buy the game should not be surprised when there is only one culture in the game.

The people complaining about the OP clearly did not read his post properly.
 
i swear... if TW starts having ghost in their games, im done... i can deal with some historical inaccuracies, but the super natural... ... ... as units... ... ... come on!!!


PS: if you would like me to rewrite my post with 'big words', incoherent ramblings, and off-beat insults i can :)... but i don't feel like these forums are a true testing ground or battlefield for the brain! so please... don't insult people if they are having difficulty understanding your writing... remember, half of writing is understanding your audience; it's a shared melody between the writer and reader... if out of tune, it's typically the writers fault!
 
stewie39 said:
Not wishing to sound quite as acidic as this does, i don't gain my sense of self through flaming others on game forums.;)
Click to expand...

After re-reading the entire topic and realizing that you attacked and personally offended almost everybody either directly or indirectly who had not agreed with you, you have prooven the opposite...
You are entirely unable to give proper anwers to people objecting or criticizing your points but instead you try to belittle them personally with arroganting and snappish comments/answers or you call generically everybody a troll if they do not agree with you...this and your exhaustive use of smileys and your double/triple posting beaviour shows clearly that you are somebody people should not bother with...
 
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FIX: Taking human nature out of the product's development. Removing the driving force of profits bueacracy and deadlines. Add exemplary product manufacturing and testing before release.

This will never happen as everything is a businiess and business is all about money. Money has become a "large" part of the modern worlds human nature(equates to greed). And you cant remove human nature from the world, its why we kill each other, have jealousy, greed, and everything else.
 
stewie39 said:
Do I come to your work & tell you how to kneel properly infront of your paying clients?:laughter:

Fix mate, like in make it better.

Sorry about the use of words its what we people use to explain our ideas:whistling
Click to expand...
Let me try and re-clarify what I (we) meant. There are already several threads in existence with the word "fix" attached to them and they all deal with "bugs". There are also several threads on this subject currently in existence which you could have just added to. Lastly owning a thesaurus does not make you more intelligent especially if you continue to use your current form of sentence structure. We are only trying to help you out, especially if you want to have a any kind of intelligent discussion in the future.
 
zukenft said:
I like stewie's ramblings, with all the difficult words he used. I have no idea whether he's serious or just trying to troll. =D

but to get on the topic. Since everyone have different tastes and opinions on what needs to be 'fixed', there's one simple solution to appease most of the people:

"MAKE EVERYTHING MODDABLE".

okay, maybe some mechanics are hardcoded in the exe, so it's not possible, but at least CA can "MAKE IT AS MODDABLE AS RTW".
Click to expand...


Yay good point! Both regarding the game and my apparently intolerable use of the English language.

Why would you make the game so hard to mod?

Especially after having such a long and proud history within the modding fraternity.:disgust:


What about a unit editor? Before all and sundry mounts up on back again I'd like to ask whether the leader of a Clan would've been free to design his own army? A person who held the very life of his vassals in his hands, may well have had the authority to dictate how his minions appeared?:hmm:


Twelve twins twirled twelve twigs.:laughter:
 
I would, however, love to see a unit editor. The MP system would be so incredibly fabulous in-game, historical color accuracy be damned.
 
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sdjenkyn said:
Let me try and re-clarify what I (we) meant. There are already several threads in existence with the word "fix" attached to them and they all deal with "bugs". There are also several threads on this subject currently in existence which you could have just added to. Lastly owning a thesaurus does not make you more intelligent especially if you continue to use your current form of sentence structure. We are only trying to help you out, especially if you want to have a any kind of intelligent discussion in the future.
Click to expand...

Now you become somewhat equitable, very well I have heard your opinion. Just a minor point, does an intelligent discussion require poorly veiled insults?

I slit a sheet. A sheet I slit. Upon the slitted sheet, I sit!
 
stewie39 said:
Now you become somewhat equitable, very well I have heard your opinion. Just a minor point, does an intelligent discussion require poorly veiled insults?

I slit a sheet. A sheet I slit. Upon the slitted sheet, I sit!
Click to expand...

Apparently, yes, it does. Either that, or occasional inane babbling.


stewie39 said:
Really we should just troll and flame any hope at improving things, or simply act like clever little :wub:s instead of constructing an actual thought (No wonder your so happy with Shogun as it stands.) Bravo you little hero's of pubescent pettiness.:thumbsup2
Click to expand...

stewie39 said:
This explains itself sufficiently without any need for you to feel self righteous and grandiloquent. I do hope you enjoyed your moment of feeling superior and adequate. Giving all on this thread a chance to witness you for the obviously neurotic David Caruso obsessed shut in that you are.

"Looks Like something caught her." David Caruso:cool:
Click to expand...

stewie39 said:
What's it going to take to fix Shogun 2?:whistling
Pretty clear:shifty:
What do you think will make Shogun 2 play better?:doh:
is that a little easier on the grey matter?:hmm:
Click to expand...
 
GambleFish said:
Sure, except for when it took him about 2 posts to start insulting everyone who asked him to clarify. There's no need for him to be rude.

I would, however, love to see a unit editor. The MP system would be so incredibly fabulous in-game, historical color accuracy be damned.
Click to expand...


I apologise for my human response, when it appears I should have embraced my detractors like some biblical benefactor of old. Perhaps there are two sides to this issue, or perhaps you have all the answers. I insult everybody out of the sheer whimsy, I don't even bother to read others post and simply adopt a position through some as yet discovered random process.
:yes:
btw Is this how you would improve Shogun 2? By selecting me on this forum and explaining how my behaviour grates on your character, I may have been simply responding in kind to others less than polite posts. But I guess you'll never know. For to you I am a walking embodiment of discourtesy(rather than some guy who is genuinely interested in ways to bring back good game play to game we all love.)


Vincent vowed vengeance very vehemently.:tongue:
 
stewie39 said:
I apologise for my human response, when it appears I should have embraced my detractors like some biblical benefactor of old. Perhaps there are two sides to this issue, or perhaps you have all the answers. I insult everybody out of the sheer whimsy, I don't even bother to read others post and simply adopt a position through some as yet discovered random process.
:yes:
btw Is this how you would improve Shogun 2? By selecting me on this forum and explaining how my behaviour grates on your character, I may have been simply responding in kind to others less than polite posts. But I guess you'll never know. For to you I am a walking embodiment of discourtesy(rather than some guy who is genuinely interested in ways to bring back good game play to game we all love.)


Vincent vowed vengeance very vehemently.:tongue:
Click to expand...

Perhaps there are two sides to this issue, or perhaps you have all the answers. I insult everybody out of the sheer whimsy, I don't even bother to read others post and simply adopt a position through some as yet discovered random process.
Click to expand...
Didn't say that.

I may have been simply responding in kind to others less than polite posts.
Click to expand...
Therein lies the problem.

For to you I am a walking embodiment of discourtesy(rather than some guy who is genuinely interested in ways to bring back good game play to game we all love.)
Click to expand...
Didn't say that.

Please don't put words in my mouth.



To be perfectly frank, you asked for opinions on how Shogun 2 can be fixed / improved. Fine. However, if a person posts stating they believe it doesn't need fixing, that's a valid opinion to hold. You don't need to use the "poorly veiled insults" you are so critical of, just because they have a different opinion. Even if I agree with you that Shogun 2 can be improved, it doesn't mean I will scorn those who believe otherwise.

As for the people who insult you - no, you are not expected to return in kind. The proper action is to report the posts and either ignore them, or be the better man and respond sincerely, despite their lack of sincerity. Doing otherwise is counter-productive.
 
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chris10 said:
After re-reading the entire topic and realizing that you attacked and personally offended almost everybody either directly or indirectly who had not agreed with you, you have prooven the opposite...
You are entirely unable to give proper anwers to people objecting or criticizing your points but instead you try to belittle them personally with arroganting and snappish comments/answers or you call generically everybody a troll if they do not agree with you...this and your exhaustive use of smileys and your double/triple posting beaviour shows clearly that you are somebody people should not bother with...
Click to expand...

I apologise for my human response, when it appears I should have embraced my detractors like some biblical benefactor of old. Perhaps there are two sides to this issue, or perhaps you have all the answers. I insult everybody out of the sheer whimsy, I don't even bother to read others post and simply adopt a position through some as yet discovered random process.

btw Is this how you would improve Shogun 2? By selecting me on this forum and explaining how my behaviour grates on your character, I may have been simply responding in kind to others less than polite posts. But I guess you'll never know. For to you I am a walking embodiment of discourtesy(rather than some guy who is genuinely interested in ways to bring back good game play to game we all love.)

Have and different point of view state it without attacking me and my opinion and see where that goes? Try it before you assume you understand all in the blink of and eye.:hmm:

Which wristwatches are Swiss wristwatches?

GambleFish said:
Didn't say that.


Therein lies the problem.


Didn't say that.

Please don't put words in my mouth.



To be perfectly frank, you asked for opinions on how Shogun 2 can be fixed / improved. Fine. However, if a person posts stating they are of the opinion it doesn't need fixing, that's a valid opinion to hold. You don't need to use the "poorly veiled insults" you are so critical of, just because they have a different opinion. Even if I agree with you that Shogun 2 can be improved, it doesn't mean I will scorn those who believe otherwise.

As for the people who insult you - no, you are not expected to return in kind. The proper action is to report the posts and either ignore them, or be the better man and respond sincerely, despite their lack of sincerity. Doing otherwise is counter-productive.
Click to expand...

Have a different point of view state it without attacking me and my opinion and see where that goes? Try it before you assume you understand all in the blink of and eye.
To be perfectly frank you are displaying the exact behaviour that you are currently in the process of accusing me of (to a degree.) Unless you have posted this position to all parties involved.

btw I agree with much of what you've said and apologise.


There was a minimum of cinnamon in the aluminum pan.
 
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stewie39 said:
Have a different point of view state it without attacking me and my opinion and see where that goes? Try it before you assume you understand all in the blink of and eye.
Click to expand...
I am trying.
To be perfectly frank you are displaying the exact behaviour that you are currently in the process of accusing me of (to a degree.) Unless you have posted this position to all parties involved.
Click to expand...
That's not my intent. Singling you out is more a result of you being the thread creator and most common poster, rather than being the biggest problem.

btw I agree with much of what you've said and apologise.
Click to expand...
Nice of you to say that, demonstrates maturity :)

There was a minimum of cinnamon in the aluminum pan.
Click to expand...

I don't really have a comeback for that one, I admit.
 
jonny duck said:
I can understand your point at wanting to keep these games as historical as possible, but not all people, myself included, want that. As soon as you start playing the game it stops being historical and starts becoming your version of history. In Rome for example, you can never perfectly mirror the exploits of the Roman Empire, so why not accept that and allow for the addition of units/traits that embrace that each player wants to make it their own version of history.

I'm not implying that silly units should be added, but what if the player wants to field gladiators in his army, with incendry pigs there is a historical account of them (or something similar, maybe oxen) being used so why not allow the player to recreate that or use such tactics as he sees fit.

It's each to their own but save strong historical accuracy for the mods and allow the vanilla version to have new and innovative features. At the end of the day we can simply mod out those we don't like.

P.S
To answer the FP, I think something needs to be done about the blandness of each clan. By and large they are all just recoloured copies with slightly different stats which makes each play through (apart from the Oda) very similar. I'm not saying to add units that didn't exist or have no historical basis, but surely something can be done?

Also, historical campaigns (similar to TATW's fellowship campaign or maybe the historical battles in Rome:Alexander) to allow players to take their favourite clan and go through their historical rise/fall. Certainly the Oda, Takeda, Uesugi, Tokugama and Azai clans would have several interesting campaigns, and if that could be supplemented by cutscenes to fill in the gaps between the battles then it would add a lot of replayability to it, and allow those who aren't so clued up about the Sengoku era to learn a bit more.
Click to expand...
:thumbsup2
Jonny I am in absolute agreement. kudos


“We can only appreciate the miracle of a sunrise if we have waited in the darkness”

It's each to their own but save strong historical accuracy for the mods and allow the vanilla version to have new and innovative features. At the end of the day we can simply mod out those we don't like.
Innovative features may restore a current lack of mystery and dynamism to Shogun 2. Pretty visuals are important but its the gameplay the unpredictability that pulls you in. Yes the new AI is doing a good job there, but after a few campaigns the game as it currently stands is deeply flawed. IMHO

Good thoughts kudos

I see your point, I'll clarify that I was considering that this aspect of Japanese culture could be the reason/basis for unit diversity (something like the berserker units in RTW) if you built a Ubume temple Ubume - A mother ghost who died in childbirth, or died leaving young children behind. This yūrei returns to care for her children, often bringing them sweets. You'd be giver acess to (x) unit with (y) abilities.

If you built a Onryō temple Onryō - Vengeful ghosts who come back from purgatory for a wrong done to them during their lifetime. You'd be giver acess to (x) unit with (y) abilities.

What I'm trying to do, and hoping to inspire others, is to think of ways to adapt the existing game, ways we can make the currently stagnant Shogun 2 into a more dynamic adaptive beast.
 
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Are you suggesting a kind of ghostly adaptation to the current game? If so a major no for my part.

I think there are other ways of improving the current game without the inclusion of the living dead. :)
 
Patrick Sharpe said:
Just how many more units can u add? I mean surely most of the weapons used in the period have there own unit e.g. katana samurai, naginata samurai. I mean the difference between the katana cavalry and yari cavalry in appearance is minimal, the yari even have swords as their back up. This is a game about the Japanese civil war. People who buy the game should not be surprised when there is only one culture in the game.

The people complaining about the OP clearly did not read his post properly.
Click to expand...

I agree with all your saying here, I'd just like to add that the game gets dull. The game not the historical text, rather the game set in this period currently gets dull. I don't believe that Japan at this time was one homogenous whole either. I'm sure that there was more diversity within the Clans. Not to mention there being more diversity within Japans geographic regions, Japan is a big country with differing climates and geography this in itself should've led to more diversity within the Clans.

One could've easily have made a clone war like this in Europe. MTW2 swords, spears, archers, these units were all very similar if that's the approach you want to take. Lets not try to find the similarities here, instead look for the differences the opportunity for variety.
:hmm:
 
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stewie39 said:
I agree with all your saying here, I'd just like to add that the game gets dull. The game not the historical text, rather the game set in this period currently gets dull. I don't believe that Japan at this time was one homogenous whole either. I'm sure that there was more diversity within the Clans. Not to mention there being more diversity within Japans geographic regions, Japan is a big country with a differing climates and geography this in itself should've led to more diversity within the Clans.

One could've easily have made a clone war like this in Europe. MTW2 swords, spears, archers, these units were all very similar if that's the approach you want to take. Lets not try to find the similarities here, instead look for the differences the opportunity for variety.
:hmm:
Click to expand...

The problem is the lack of modding tools... I lament their loss. Some of the crowning moments of awesome in M2TW, RTW, Civ 4, Morrowind, and Fallout 3 for me came from the really inspired work modders put into making these games special.

It's a durn shame, it is.
 
Totalheadache said:
Are you suggesting a kind of ghostly adaptation to the current game? If so a major no for my part.

I think there are other ways of improving the current game without the inclusion of the living dead. :)
Click to expand...

That is not where I was going, sorry to have mislead you.

What other ways of improving the current game?

This is the question I am posing, What other ways of improving the current game? Share you thoughts, help modders, perhaps even allow CA a look into what you feel might make Shogun 2 a fitter beast?

I am currently of the opinion that the games current clone mechanic is intrinsic to the games falling short on replay-ability. If a more diverse unit roster could be instituted within the games current build/historic position something needs to be done about the blandness of each clan. Were they in truth simply recoloured copies with slightly different stats ?

I don't agree that Japan at this time was one homogenous whole. I'm sure that there was more diversity within the Clans. Not to mention there being more diversity within Japans geographic regions, Japan is a big country with a differing climates and geography. How can the Ashigaru of the Chosokabe clan be identical in both appearance and martial prowess to Isa Tomomune's Date clan? Japans differing climates and geography in itself should've led to more diversity within Shogun 2's Clans.

One could easily have made a clone war like this in Europe. MTW2 swords, spears, archers, these units were all very similar if that's the approach you want to take. Lets not try to find the similarities here, instead look for the differences the opportunity for variety.

“There was never a night or a problem that could defeat sunrise or hope.”:thumbsup2
 
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stewie39 said:
That is not where I was going, sorry to have mislead you.

What other ways of improving the current game?

This is the question I am posing, What other ways of improving the current game? Share you thoughts, help modders, perhaps even allow CA a look into what you feel might make Shogun 2 a fitter beast?

I am currently of the opinion that the games current clone mechanic is intrinsic to the games falling short on replay-ability. If a more diverse unit roster could be instituted within the games current build/historic position something needs to be done about the blandness of each clan. Where they in truth simply recoloured copies with slightly different stats ?

I don't agree that Japan at this time was one homogenous whole. I'm sure that there was more diversity within the Clans. Not to mention there being more diversity within Japans geographic regions, Japan is a big country with a differing climates and geography. How can the Ashigaru of the Chosokabe clan be identical in both appearance and martial prowess to Isa Tomomune's Date clan? Japans differing climates and geography in itself should've led to more diversity within Shogun 2's Clans.

One could easily have made a clone war like this in Europe. MTW2 swords, spears, archers, these units were all very similar if that's the approach you want to take. Lets not try to find the similarities here, instead look for the differences the opportunity for variety.

“There was never a night or a problem that could defeat sunrise or hope.”:thumbsup2
Click to expand...

sounds good and i will be sure to add my feedback until i have actually played it properly. sorry for me the aa thing doesnt mean a finished game. (well gtaiv4 with forced aa looks ok considering its age).

tbh given another yr of the bs current to the pc gaming community i might just stick to my console. life is 2 short. (or i am getting old hehe)
 
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Anybody with any ideas?
What incentives can be added by modders or CA themselves?
What motivation can be implemented to remove the inevitable grind the tedious and unrewarding mid to end game becomes?

"It's been said before a ton of times, but, why in the world would I replay the campaign with a different faction? They're identical both aesthetically and functionally. It's like playing ETW on NTW's map, but the only factions are England versus blue England versus yellow England versus green England times 10. I thought this game was going to have at least one or two unique units distributed between the factions, and something, anything, to distinguish them from each other." Originally Posted by M2TWRocks

It is 2011 after all, there is a wealth game development, exciting and interesting game evolution underway. Why not embrace interesting/dynamic game evolution?
 
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