Forum Trash Barrel

Hazbones · Mar 29, 2009

Re: American Civil War : The Blue and the Gray

So any skinning been done yet? I could start churning out skinned units if I had a base model and base skin to play off of. I think the enthusiasm for this mod will really take off if we can feed the hungry masses with screenies of units as we finish them.

Titan Uranus · Mar 29, 2009

Re: American Civil War : The Blue and the Gray

Ok, first to simulate :wub:

rail networks we could just use different levels of roads, re modeled to look like railroads.
Second, it is a blatant lie to say that just as many blacks fought for the C.S.A. as the U.S.A. a few regiments and single cases does not equal hundreds of thousands, of men.

Most of both sides advantages can be easily simulated with current gameplay mechanics, the exceptions are Gatling guns and repeating rifles.

harshman_chris · Mar 29, 2009

Re: American Civil War : The Blue and the Gray

You want to join the team, sure.

As for skinned units, give it a few more days until until we have compiled a unit list, I have 4 days before a 40 page report is due for school so I need to finish that off but then hopefully we can have unit lists done by the end of next week and start the skinning process.

For now it will just be changing the textures which we can then use to create new units, I am not sure what we are going to do about the hats yet, we might need wait until we can get access at the models to change hats to the famour union hats.

But we can work some of the other units, and get samples out.

As to Slave numbers, 179,000 fought for the north which total 10% of their armed forces strength. The confederates had as many as 69000, but only 13000 met the enemy in battle.

And while it was not until the last days of the war that the government recruited them into the army, officers would often use them to replenish their units, in the south, which the except of one or two black units they all served in mixed units.

I was already thinking of doing railways in such a manner as it makes the most sense. Repeating Rifles will be easy we can just make a fast reloading dragoon, who were the ones who had repeating rifles really.

Titan Uranus · Mar 29, 2009

Re: American Civil War : The Blue and the Gray

harshman_chris said:
I was already thinking of doing railways in such a manner as it makes the most sense. Repeating Rifles will be easy we can just make a fast reloading dragoon, who were the ones who had repeating rifles really.

Thing is last I checked, no one knew how to give infantry magazines, though we could just make a faster rifle, it would be better to use mags because it would simulate the shock effect of 12 volleys in six seconds, and then have twelve( or whatever) seconds of reloading.
Also not all blacks were slaves and far higher numbers served in the navy, but I'll drop it.

Aradiel · Mar 29, 2009

Re: American Civil War : The Blue and the Gray

Hazbones said:
So any skinning been done yet? I could start churning out skinned units if I had a base model and base skin to play off of. I think the enthusiasm for this mod will really take off if we can feed the hungry masses with screenies of units as we finish them.

The closest vanilla model to what we need is the milita unit from the road to independence campaign. Altering this model in the future would allow us to make most uniforms out of it with minimal changes. We have all the nessecary references for any uniform you can imagine, if you like i can try to find the closest match, and you could also skin the ironclad model im about to finish as well if you like

edit:

First renderings of the Tecumseh

Hazbones · Mar 29, 2009

Re: American Civil War : The Blue and the Gray

Aradiel said:
The closest vanilla model to what we need is the milita unit from the road to independence campaign. Altering this model in the future would allow us to make most uniforms out of it with minimal changes. We have all the nessecary references for any uniform you can imagine, if you like i can try to find the closest match, and you could also skin the ironclad model im about to finish as well if you like

Militia unit you're referring to the Virginia militia correct? I haven't played RTI yet.

I am just a beginner when it comes to skinning but if I have a diffuse map of the ironclad you are making then yes I can skin it.

also...
Most CSA units wore a slouch hat after the supply of kepis ran out so any model we have that wears a slouch hat will do (there are many) however the US units mostly wore kepi or fez except units like the Iron Brigade who wore a slouch hat with the brim turned up on one side (see the euro pikeman model for a similar example).

Aradiel · Mar 29, 2009

Re: American Civil War : The Blue and the Gray

Hazbones said:
Militia unit you're referring to the Virginia militia correct? I haven't played RTI yet.

Yes

Hazbones said:
I am just a beginner when it comes to skinning but if I have a diffuse map of the ironclad you are making then yes I can skin it.

I will pm you a reference, will be good practice.

Hazbones said:
Most CSA units wore a slouch hat after the supply of kepis ran out so any model we have that wears a slouch hat will do (there are many) however the US units mostly wore kepi or fez except units like the Iron Brigade who wore a slouch hat with the brim turned up on one side (see the euro pikeman model for a similar example).

Will also look for a proper reference for that.

El_Diablo13 · Mar 29, 2009

Re: American Civil War : The Blue and the Gray

im pretty sure the modellers on this team can give u something to work with

Emperor_of_Italy · Mar 29, 2009

Re: American Civil War : The Blue and the Gray

Please delete.

tobier · Mar 30, 2009

Re: American Civil War : The Blue and the Gray

Emperor_of_Italy said:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=244157

Why did you post that? This is for the Civil War mod, you shouldn't "advertise" other stuff here :S

Emperor_of_Italy · Mar 30, 2009

Re: American Civil War : The Blue and the Gray

Please delete.

tobier · Mar 30, 2009

Re: American Civil War : The Blue and the Gray

Emperor_of_Italy said:
Ok, I'm sorry, how do you delete posts?

I don't know if you can, just edit it out and write like "Please delete" and a moderator will surely find it and delete.

Kiljaden · Mar 30, 2009

Re: American Civil War : The Blue and the Gray

All I want to say, is please, please, please make the campaign map for North America huge! And I mean HUGE! Hell, cut out the western half of it if you have to!

Gomer_Pyle · Mar 30, 2009

Re: American Civil War : The Blue and the Gray

Great work and idea so far...

Did not read through all the posts. But I got a small tip. When you do the map making bit. If you go that far. Please try to make it big but not too big... You are probably going 1 turn = 1 week. So try to make the map so it looks kind of realistic when it comes to movement of an entire army (in 1 week) A perfectly based mapsize will make the war more intense. I would probably first try and go for the america theatre already there in the first place. Maybe a bit bigger. But not much. And to keep the replayability some random events that can change the course of the game.

Keep up the good work.. Looks brilliant.

tobier · Mar 30, 2009

Re: American Civil War : The Blue and the Gray

Atleast the way I view our map, is to make it big. And yes, it will concentrate on NA. I'm going to look into how long an army could march in a week, you can find out pretty much if you follow the movements of the armies before, during and after major battles/campaigns.

UEFHokie · Mar 30, 2009

Re: American Civil War : The Blue and the Gray

A normal army march was 10 miles a day. Gen. Jackson marched his troops 25 miles a day, he began earlier (began at 3 in the morning and went for 17 hours roughly) and kept a faster pace. During the Bull Run Campaign, he marched his troops 56 miles in 2 days.

I have a bunch of notes from my Civil War History class, which is where I got this information from.

Aradiel · Mar 30, 2009

Re: American Civil War : The Blue and the Gray

Marching 10 miles a day sounds reasonable, 25 however will leave you exausted. We will have to reflect the infrastructure and the terrain, like railways and troop transport via boats. Its also a difference to march on a road or through wildneress, marshland is of course the worst. I wonder if it would be possible to reflect the exaustion of an army that marches before a battle in the battle where units start tired instead of fresh based on the used movementpoints.

harshman_chris · Mar 30, 2009

Re: American Civil War : The Blue and the Gray

10 miles seems good, so that would be 70 miles in a week, with roads? or before roads, and roads would not speed up marching that much. Railways would though.

I am going to look into the tiredness thing, that would be neat

Aradiel · Mar 30, 2009

Re: American Civil War : The Blue and the Gray

harshman_chris said:
10 miles seems good, so that would be 70 miles in a week, with roads? or before roads, and roads would not speed up marching that much. Railways would though.

I am going to look into the tiredness thing, that would be neat

We clearly need to research that but an asumption:

Railway: 100-150 miles per day?

By boat: 50 miles per day

10-15 miles per day on a road or equivalent. It must be wide enough to march in column, if its not it will considerably slow down the movement and also the artillery pieces and supply wagons will get stuck.

5-10 miles in the Wilderness, flats to Forrest no maintained roads.

0-5 miles swamp, marshland, semi-alpine terrain.

harshman_chris · Mar 30, 2009

Re: American Civil War : The Blue and the Gray

Now to figure out what those would be in game values.

Also even after a 10 mile hike units will be somewhat tired before moving into battle, maybe it should work so that units can movwe farther than 10 miles but if they do they before much more tired.

Aradiel · Mar 30, 2009

Re: American Civil War : The Blue and the Gray

harshman_chris said:
Now to figure out what those would be in game values.

Also even after a 10 mile hike units will be somewhat tired before moving into battle, maybe it should work so that units can movwe farther than 10 miles but if they do they before much more tired.

Thats what i was proposing to emit this in battle. The fastest documented march i know of is 120 km (75 miles) in 50 hours by Marshall Davout from Vienna to Austerlitz and right into battle in 1806. You may assume that these troops where more than exausted but thats pretty much what is the maximum possible.

Titan Uranus · Mar 30, 2009

Re: American Civil War : The Blue and the Gray

Aradiel said:
We clearly need to research that but an asumption:

Railway: 100-150 miles per day?

By boat: 50 miles per day

Rail:http://science.jrank.org/pages/6894/Trains-Railroads-American-standard.html

Which adds up to 250 miles assuming 10 hours of travel, though it would probably be longer, but that's a lower limit.

By Ship, clippers aimed for nine knots(10 mph), regular merchants for under five(6 mph), that would be 240 miles and 144 miles, respectively. The U.S.S. Lackawanna, a screw sloop-of-war made 10.5 knots or 12.1 MPH, which comes to 290.1 miles.

The 75 mile march in 50 hours would be a very high upper limit, I think per day, 10-20 miles is more reasonable.

Also what do you want us researchers to focus on first, flags uniforms, guns, ect.?

Also a guy from the yuku forums wants to join.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

2ndlegion
Hi,

I'd like to help you make the civil war mod, i have NO tw modding experience the only modding I've ever done was with Europa Universialis: Rome (may have heard of it) and compared to this it was like a stroll in the park. What i really want out of this is basic knowledge on how to mod with empire and the tools required but that doesn't mean i won't help or want to help. So if you're looking for an extra pair of hands, please, ring me up.

Thanks

harshman_chris · Mar 30, 2009

Re: American Civil War : The Blue and the Gray

Direct the guy from the Yuku forums to make a account and post here.

Aradiel · Mar 30, 2009

Re: American Civil War : The Blue and the Gray

Titan Uranus said:
Which adds up to 250 miles assuming 10 hours of travel, though it would probably be longer, but that's a lower limit.

By Ship, clippers aimed for nine knots(10 mph), regular merchants for under five(6 mph), that would be 240 miles and 144 miles, respectively. The U.S.S. Lackawanna, a screw sloop-of-war made 10.5 knots or 12.1 MPH, which comes to 290.1 miles.

Yea i was careful with the railway, it will depend on terrain as well, a train cannot go at full speed all the time. A clipper is a very fast vessel, i was referring to river barques. Propeller sloops or blockade r unners are even faster but they should not be used to transport troops.

Titan Uranus · Mar 30, 2009

Re: American Civil War : The Blue and the Gray

Are we going to include end of the war prototypes and rare/unique ships. For example the triple-turret Roanoke monitor and the Hunley(though that would probably be very hard to do, bad example) or the Kalamazoo Class of monitor.

Aradiel · Mar 30, 2009

Re: American Civil War : The Blue and the Gray

Titan Uranus said:
Are we going to include end of the war prototypes and rare/unique ships. For example the triple-turret Roanoke monitor and the Hunley(though that would probably be very hard to do, bad example) or the Kalamazoo Class of monitor.

Get me the references and consider it done :tongue:

I dont see the problem with the hunley it simply will be underwater or just the turret visible, the problem will rather be to make its ramming attack devastating. For monitors i already modeled one which is almost done as seen a page before. Turrets will be problematic as we dont know if we can make them turning. But in general i dont see why we shall not have the proposed vessels if we get good references to model them.

Titan Uranus · Mar 30, 2009

Re: American Civil War : The Blue and the Gray

Aradiel said:
Yea i was careful with the railway, it will depend on terrain as well, a train cannot go at full speed all the time. A clipper is a very fast vessel, i was referring to river barques. Propeller sloops or blockade runners are even faster but they should not be used to transport troops.

Ah ok, I thought you meant open sea and used boat by accident, thought I don't think the game would allow a ship to not be able to go into the open ocean, unless we put barriers, but then the ocean going ships would not be able to reach the rivers.
Anyway, this is the first thing I found: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9905E5DE1F31E033A2575BC0A9669D94639ED7CF
It says that 21 MPH is very good time for a steamboat, I would take that down to at least 16MPH or less, because of Murphy's Law, and because the article states that that is a very good time, so 21MPH upper limit that comes to 504 miles for twenty four hours of travel or 252 miles for a more reasonable twelve hours.
I can't find any numbers of river barques and they probably varied widely, but this was well into the era of the steam boat so I think those numbers should work.
Never mind, I just realized those numbers are from 1892, so the steamboats of 1860 would be far lower, I'll look more.

Edit:

Aradiel said:
Get me the references and consider it done I dont see the problem with the hunley it simply will be underwater or just the turret visible, the problem will rather be to make its ramming attack devastating. For monitors i already modeled one which is almost done as seen a page before. Turrets will be problematic as we dont know if we can make them turning. But in general i dont see why we shall not have the proposed vessels if we get good references to model them.

Here you go: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/monitors-1.htm
I'll try to find some more, but there are very few pics of the Roanoke.
The Hunley didn't have a turret.

Edit here are some better images: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/monitors-2.htm

Aradiel · Mar 30, 2009

Re: American Civil War : The Blue and the Gray

Thats a start, for detailed modelling it is however nessecary to have plans, most likely the best place for those are the historic archives. We will have to investigate that, but anything from a picture to a colored drawing for the skinner helps.

Titan Uranus · Mar 30, 2009

Re: American Civil War : The Blue and the Gray

http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/roanoke.htm
Deck and hold plans for the Roanoke:

How is that?
Edit: I think the mods deleted it, here is the link:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/roanoke1a.jpg

Aradiel · Mar 30, 2009

Re: American Civil War : The Blue and the Gray

Yes, thats one part required, you should remove the img though. You need deck, profile and side. Deck and profile are required to make the hull accurately, side for details which is suposed to be supported by drawings or images as complex plans tend to get crowded and often miss deck structure. Even more interresting is the booksource, maybe someone from the us can borrow it and scan in the other plans.

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