China says the West must handle Global Warming; Rejects emissions cap

Duke_of_Bavaria · Dec 18, 2007

Kiljan Arslan said:
How can one be too cold? I take walks with just a sweatshirt on and golves in 10 F weather.

Why don't you come and live in Scandinavia for a while and you'll know it can be too cold

.

Anyhow, if China and the US go "**** it" then the rest of the world might aswell since they are the ones letting out most of the ****.

Sidmen · Dec 18, 2007

Anyhow, if China and the US go "**** it" then the rest of the world might aswell since they are the ones letting out most of the ****.

If you were really interested in stopping global warming, you would reduce your emissions enough that ours wouldn't matter. (Europe produces more co2 than the US)

Duke_of_Bavaria · Dec 18, 2007

Sidmen said:
If you were really interested in stopping global warming, you would reduce your emissions enough that ours wouldn't matter. (Europe produces more co2 than the US)

Europe has around 710'000'000 inhabitants, US around 300'000'000. Guess who releases the most per capita?
Nobody can do everything alone but everyone can do alot together.

Sidmen · Dec 18, 2007

As I am well aware.

Holger Danske · Dec 18, 2007

Caelius said:
Just thought i'd pre-emptively adopt the Devil's Advocate position of some posters who will inevitably respond here:

"America is to blame. It's their fault!"

not solely, but if the US dosn't do anything actively to lower emmissions then there is no point in other countries do so as it wouldn't make a difference at all.

China and the US must look after cleaner energy sources as they actually have quite deep pockets... I mean the anual bill spend on something as point as Iraq cou... oh wait, let's not go there... :shifty:

Sidmen · Dec 18, 2007

What are you talking about? The US government is bankrupt.

It can't support itself without borrowing money to pay off money it has already borrowed. Bankrupt.

JP226 · Dec 18, 2007

Now, "they" (the Mexicans) choose the US over other countries because it is the easiest western nation for them to get to, being right next door. How much clearer can I make it? You were implying that they choose the US because it is the best country in the world, were you not?

This is out and out agonizing. What is so difficult about this question that you clearly have no idea as to what's the right answer. I'll make it simple, it's "not b/c the US is next door." It's not because europe is far away. **** it, I can't make it any simpler, It's because we create jobs. They come here for work, no jobs no mexicans, no eastern euros, no chinese, no whatever. If the Euros did it any better, or if canada or guatemala did it better they'd go there. It has nothing to do with the ease of entry versus the ability to put food on the table. Costs and benefits. It's why immigrants from all over the world come here, for work.

Was that so hard?

Which then goes back to Kiljan's original dumb point, "we'd be happy to make 10 million refugees." No we wouldn't. We'd lose mexicans picking fruit, sure Americans would do it initially, but we'd have to pay more for american employees, which means the price of an orange is going up up up. Which means unhappy americans with less area under the budget constraint.

China and the US must look after cleaner energy sources as they actually have quite deep pockets... I mean the anual bill spend on something as point as Iraq cou... oh wait, let's not go there...

What the hell kind of logic is that? We're rich so we have to create clean energy. Screw Europe, they produce more pollution then we do. You don't like it, fix it yourself. If you hae so much faith in the manmade global warming hypothesis, then do something about it and quit *****ing.

Holger Danske · Dec 18, 2007

The problem is that there is no way of effectively reducing emissions without the US and China also doing something. We simply can't fix the enviromental mess you're contributing to. Unless you want EU to administrate the America once again?!

I'm not saying Europe is clean, i'm just saying that we actually see an issue and want to deal with it. But it's pointless to try and save what can be saved of our Planet if the US and China dosn't want to agree on a plan to reduce emissions...

JP226 · Dec 18, 2007

I'm not saying Europe is clean, i'm just saying that we actually see an issue and want to deal with it. But it's pointless to try and save what can be saved of our Planet if the US and China dosn't want to agree on a plan to reduce emissions...

I got it, your continent is the quintessential bleeding heart. Complain and do nothing. Do you guys typically get satisfaction out of complaining to make yourselves feel like you care?

The EU pollutes more then both the US and China, again, why should we care when you don't?

Duke_of_Bavaria · Dec 18, 2007

Holger Danske said:
The problem is that there is no way of effectively reducing emissions without the US and China also doing something. We simply can't fix the enviromental mess you're contributing to. Unless you want EU to administrate the America once again?!

I'm not saying Europe is clean, i'm just saying that we actually see an issue and want to deal with it. But it's pointless to try and save what can be saved of our Planet if the US and China dosn't want to agree on a plan to reduce emissions...

I love it how people try to make it sound like the world is doomned because of the climate change :laughter:

. Nobody seriously thinks that we are all gonna die. Africa and southern Europe will ge dryer etc. but humanity will survive. Stop using stupid phrases like "save what can be saved".

Kiljan Arslan · Dec 18, 2007

Wow JP so then why do you support illegals coming over here and yet then you decide to be a patriot? Someone heres being inconsistant.

Gary88 · Dec 18, 2007

I got it, your continent is the quintessential bleeding heart. Complain and do nothing. Do you guys typically get satisfaction out of complaining to make yourselves feel like you care?

The EU pollutes more then both the US and China, again, why should we care when you don't?

seeing as per capita the US polutes around double the average European (the EU is an organisation not a continent) (the last figures i saw had Europe at 12 tonnes and USA at 20, the difference was almost entirely through car emissions (sp)) we are already doing something compared to the US citizen. if US citizens came down to european levels that would save ~2.4 billion tonnes of CO2 per year. Europeans would have to halve emissions by over 25% to compensate for americans polluting more than anyone else.

Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus · Dec 18, 2007

Kiljan Arslan said:
Well I say send them back where they came from.

But all they're doing is pursuing happiness, thats a right given to anyone in the declaration of Independence. :whistling

Second of all, Co2 is not the only greenhouse gas, The worst one (Being the one that re-radiates the most heat back towards the earth's surface) Are chlorofluorocarbons, And the last two countries to resist efforts to phase these out were the United states and China, not europe.

Kiljan Arslan · Dec 18, 2007

Yes those who are LEGALLY!

JP226 · Dec 18, 2007

seeing as per capita the US polutes around double the average European (the EU is an organisation not a continent) (the last figures i saw had Europe at 12 tonnes and USA at 20, the difference was almost entirely through car emissions (sp)) we are already doing something compared to the US citizen. if US citizens came down to european levels that would save ~2.4 billion tonnes of CO2 per year. Europeans would have to halve emissions by over 25% to compensate for americans polluting more than anyone else.

Oh, the numbers game. I can play too. The us pollutes less per unit of output. Again, get off your lazy euro asses and get to work. Don't come *****ing to me and then do nothing.

s.rwitt · Dec 18, 2007

But all they're doing is pursuing happiness, thats a right given to anyone in the declaration of Independence.

Well damn, if they meant that I could pursue happiness even if it requires breaking the law, I better go rob that bank down the street. :whistling

Gary88 · Dec 18, 2007

Oh, the numbers game. I can play too. The us pollutes less per unit of output. Again, get off your lazy euro asses and get to work. Don't come *****ing to me and then do nothing.

you did read where i said the difference in CO2 output between the US and Europe is almost entirely down to vehicle exhaust emissions didn't you?

and seriously mate calm down, we're having a grown up discussion here.

Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus · Dec 18, 2007

Kiljan Arslan said:
Yes those who are LEGALLY!

The Idea of Natural rights transcends Legality.

s.rwitt said:
Well damn, if they meant that I could pursue happiness even if it requires breaking the law, I better go rob that bank down the street.

Because one person explicitly going out and robbing a bank is similar to Millions of people who come here for a better life. Oh wait, Its not. :no:

s.rwitt · Dec 18, 2007

Because one person explicitly going out and robbing a bank is similar to Millions of people who come here for a better life. Oh wait, Its not.

Because using the constitution to justify breaking the law to get something you want makes a great amount of sense. Oh wait, it dosen't.

JP226 · Dec 18, 2007

you did read where i said the difference in CO2 output between the US and Europe is almost entirely down to vehicle exhaust emissions didn't you?

vehicle exhaust is as much a function of output as smoke coming out of a factory. Unless of course we don't need to drive to work or transport freight across the country.

Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus · Dec 18, 2007

s.rwitt said:
Because using the constitution to justify breaking the law to get something you want makes a great amount of sense. Oh wait, it dosen't.

I didn't cite the constitution :laughter:

I cited the Declaration of Independence.

Gary88 · Dec 18, 2007

vehicle exhaust is as much a function of output as smoke coming out of a factory. Unless of course we don't need to drive to work or transport freight across the country.

the fact that americans have excesivley (sheesh i cant spell) poluting cars has nothing to with productivity, nor does the culture of taking even short journeys by vehicle.
also i would like ro know on what basis you are saying that americans are more productive. more hours at work? well you only have to go to and from work once.

if you want to bring down the tone of this debate with lines like 'get of your lazy ass and work' it will be more than simple enough for me and/or any other person to retaliate in kind given the excess vehicle emissions from the US

Kiljan Arslan · Dec 18, 2007

Man this is why I hate bleeding hearts and Neo Libs.

Oh and Centurion the DOI is our DOI from England NOTHING ELSE!

s.rwitt · Dec 18, 2007

I didn't cite the constitution I cited the Declaration of Independence.

You're right, my typo.

Moving on, you're assertion was ridiculous. Illegal immigration is certainly NOT covered by the Declaration of Independece. Or Constitution.

Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus · Dec 18, 2007

s.rwitt said:
You're right, my typo.

Moving on, you're assertion was ridiculous. Illegal immigration is certainly NOT covered by the Declaration of Independece. Or Constitution.

Neither doe's it cover things like tariff's, national banks, etc But only around 25 years after it was signed those were the biggest issues in American Society. Basically, if the only things that we allowed were things specifically allowed in the declaration of independence, then we'd allow nothing because nothing is specifically stated. Anyways, I doubt that the founding fathers would have that much of a deal with people coming over here to get a better life.

Secondly Kiljan, Im citing the Declaration of Independence, I dont really see how that document was neo-lib.

JP226 · Dec 18, 2007

also i would like ro know on what basis you are saying that americans are more productive. more hours at work? well you only have to go to and from work once.

Output, GDP, GNP, whatever term you'd like. We produce more output at lower levels of pollution. IE our GDP is larger and our pollution is less.

going from work once? I worked at a law office and was in the car all day. Truck drivers travel across the country hauling ****, as do trains, planes and automobiles. I have a buddy now who's a financial planner, he's never not on a plane or in a car travelling across the country meeting clients etc.

Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus · Dec 18, 2007

Kiljan Arslan said:
Oh and Centurion the DOI is our DOI from England NOTHING ELSE!

The first two paragraphs of the DOI mention Great Britain a grand total of 1 time(S) Theres a great deal of stuff about natural rights in there.

s.rwitt · Dec 18, 2007

Anyways, I doubt that the founding fathers would have that much of a deal with people coming over here to get a better life.

Why do you insist on pretending that those oppossed to ILLEGAL immigration are oppossed to ALL immigration?

Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus · Dec 18, 2007

s.rwitt said:
Why do you insist on pretending that those oppossed to ILLEGAL immigration are oppossed to ALL immigration?

Im not saying you are opposed to all Immigration.

But in the end, the 'Illegal' Immigrant is coming over for the same reasons the Puritans did over on the Mayflower, and the same way the Irish did in the latter 19th century. A better life. Is that so bad ?

Kiljan Arslan · Dec 18, 2007

SO then why is the DOI not used as a legal document then?

China says the West must handle Global Warming; Rejects emissions cap

China says the West must handle Global Warming; Rejects emissions cap

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