3 Spartan units and the Marathon battle

More threads by morfeasnikos

Re: The Marathon battle

Okay, I publicly apologize for using profanity.

I won't deny I feel like using strong language with Anthonius, yet I better restrain myself from now on. Have a good day.
Personaly no offence taken. Have a good day you too.
 
Re: The Marathon battle

All this talk about Persians and Athenians at Marathon but what about the Spartans! Oh wait...nevermind.

Well, I bet they formed an orderly queue when viewing the battlefield :P
 
Re: The Marathon battle

Here is a render this unit will be uploaded very soon , maybe i will change the legs...
credits
Tone
Neo
Agon, (a mod from MTW2)
Greek units from Mythology TW (the hair is from there) i think this is OSP...
Napoleon TW
Hegemonia of course
16640871.jpg

By morfeasnikos1 at 2012-05-29
98959536.jpg

By morfeasnikos1 at 2012-05-29
 
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Re: The Marathon battle

very nice ! awesome pics dude :)
 
Re: The Marathon battle

Regarding Marathon Battle here's an assay from a strategy network. I think it's quite fair.
'cause it's in italian, here's the sum of the fact (sorry for the poor English).

-Numbers
Persians: Even though some sources indicate 40.000 infantrymen and 4-6.000 cavalrymen, the more reasonable number are
10-15.000 persian infantrymen
1000-1500 persian cavalrymen
3-6000 Ippia's henchmen (irregulars?)
maybe some mercenary hoplite
Athenian:
9-10.000 Athenian Hoplites
1.000 Platean Hoplites

-Battle Formations
The Persian landed on Marathon, where the Athenian arrived later. The Marathon plain was estemeed befitting for the Persian heavy cavalry. The two armies confronted for some days but in the end, the Athenian attacked on the 11 September.
Interestingly Herodotus don't speak of the Persian cavalry. Probably they were on the boats (used like stables) 'cause the Persian general, Artafernes (son of the Great King) do not wanted to leave such precious troops in the open at night, or maybe they were devasting the fields around (the expedition was a vindicatory expedition, after all). But as a matter of fact, the persian cavalry never arrived on the battlefield.
The Persian batteline is somewhat unknown. The Greek battleline was, actually, strange: for matching the long Persian line (thus avoiding encirclement, deadly for an hoplitic army) the Athenian generals weakened the centre and then reinforced the wings.
It's unknown if this was a strategic choice or a fluke. Each battle line was long nearly 1500 m and the no-man-zone betwenn the armies was of 1500 m.

-The Battle
The Greek attacked, advancing swiflty, unnaturaly swiftly for a phalanx army, and sprinted the last 200 m. The sprint was probably the point for the poor prestation of the Persian archers, who hitted nearly 100 men. The Greek than clashed on the Persian line. The Greek center (already weakened) suffered, while the (reinforced) wings pushed back the Persian.
The Persian wings routed and then the Greek wings managed to turn around (not a simple feat, if I haven't misinterpreted), attacking the Persian center (probably the toughest section of the Persian army) from three sides. After little, the Persian center routed.

-Aftermath
The Greek losses were 192 (assessed), while the Persian losses were from 6400 to 2000 (Herodotus says 6400, but 2000 or maybe even 1500 is a more reasonable number).
The Greek covered the no-man-land in something like 15'. The battle lasted, from the clash of the armies to the rout of the Persian center, probably less than an hour (maybe even 20').
 
Re: The Marathon battle

Regarding Marathon Battle here's an assay from a strategy network. I think it's quite fair.
'cause it's in italian, here's the sum of the fact (sorry for the poor English).

-Numbers
Persians: Even though some sources indicate 40.000 infantrymen and 4-6.000 cavalrymen, the more reasonable number are
10-15.000 persian infantrymen
1000-1500 persian cavalrymen
3-6000 Ippia's henchmen (irregulars?)
maybe some mercenary hoplite
Athenian:
9-10.000 Athenian Hoplites
1.000 Platean Hoplites

-Battle Formations
The Persian landed on Marathon, where the Athenian arrived later. The Marathon plain was estemeed befitting for the Persian heavy cavalry. The two armies confronted for some days but in the end, the Athenian attacked on the 11 September.
Interestingly Herodotus don't speak of the Persian cavalry. Probably they were on the boats (used like stables) 'cause the Persian general, Artafernes (son of the Great King) do not wanted to leave such precious troops in the open at night, or maybe they were devasting the fields around (the expedition was a vindicatory expedition, after all). But as a matter of fact, the persian cavalry never arrived on the battlefield.
The Persian batteline is somewhat unknown. The Greek battleline was, actually, strange: for matching the long Persian line (thus avoiding encirclement, deadly for an hoplitic army) the Athenian generals weakened the centre and then reinforced the wings.
It's unknown if this was a strategic choice or a fluke. Each battle line was long nearly 1500 m and the no-man-zone betwenn the armies was of 1500 m.

-The Battle
The Greek attacked, advancing swiflty, unnaturaly swiftly for a phalanx army, and sprinted the last 200 m. The sprint was probably the point for the poor prestation of the Persian archers, who hitted nearly 100 men. The Greek than clashed on the Persian line. The Greek center (already weakened) suffered, while the (reinforced) wings pushed back the Persian.
The Persian wings routed and then the Greek wings managed to turn around (not a simple feat, if I haven't misinterpreted), attacking the Persian center (probably the toughest section of the Persian army) from three sides. After little, the Persian center routed.

-Aftermath
The Greek losses were 192 (assessed), while the Persian losses were from 6400 to 2000 (Herodotus says 6400, but 2000 or maybe even 1500 is a more reasonable number).
The Greek covered the no-man-land in something like 15'. The battle lasted, from the clash of the armies to the rout of the Persian center, probably less than an hour (maybe even 20').


Just to add something to this vey interesting information, the general who thought the tactic with the weakened center, was Miltiades. He holds a high place in Ancient Greek History:)
 
Re: The Marathon battle

Just to add something to this vey interesting information, the general who thought the tactic with the weakened center, was Miltiades. He holds a high place in Ancient Greek History:smile:
Yup, Miltiades and Callimacos (or was Callimacus? I don't remember, sorry :tongue:)


Regarding a planned retreat, there is no evidence for this claim. Herodotus, our main source, simply states that the Athenian center was broken, fled and the barbarians pursued it inland. Anything but a planned maneuver.

Never said anything regarding a planned retreat.
Actually, I said the center was weakened for extending the greek battle-line (thus matching the persian's one and avoiding encirclement). The centre weakening was planned, but probably the strategoi simply hoped it could bear the persian counterattack while the wings charged through their counterparts.

The center probably routed (I think they simply fallen back disorderly, pushed by the heavy persian center) while the Greek wings broke the Persian's one (comprised probably of light infantry), thanks to the charge's impulse.
It was probably a case, not an ante litteram Cannae Tactic.
 
Re: The Marathon battle

Morfeasnikos, havent you thought about making a detailed tutorial how to convert M2TW units to rome, i have also tried doing it but havent managed to do it properly. I am sure modding community would be very thankful for this as there are loads of threads asking how to convert them. This would also allow making medieval mods and more detailed units farely easily. BTW how did you made those hoplite animations as they look especially cool (like rest of the mod also).
 
Re: The Marathon battle

Acually I do not have them anymore as I had to format my computer about half a year ago and i lost everything exept my university stuff. However even a tutorial just with pictures and arrows showing how to do would work as this would be the first tutorial of a kind. BTW your english looks fine.
 
Re: The Marathon battle

@LaurKristjan have you try to merge first, RTW models? its more easy this way. If yes and you want to deeper you must know to make a skin in 3dmax. Here is a tutorial for merging.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=181509
@Demetrius I Poliorketes
The file contain the homoioi and some game improvements, no rebellion script. in the future i will add more units.:)
thanx
 
Re: The Marathon battle

Morfeasnikos, havent you thought about making a detailed tutorial how to convert M2TW units to rome, i have also tried doing it but havent managed to do it properly. I am sure modding community would be very thankful for this as there are loads of threads asking how to convert them. This would also allow making medieval mods and more detailed units farely easily.


Hm, maybe I'll make it at some points.
 
Re: The Marathon battle

@thanx Raritу
@Demetrius I Poliorketes i will try to add a Helot rebellion script, to the next update

Update in post #1
more morale, more defensive skill, and more time between the hits , in EDU. Now the battles last far more.
and a fix to the Homoioi the spear was to high.
 
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Re: The Marathon battle

That would be great, thank you. Ευχαριστώ, πολύ

Does the AI retrain in BI or is it only the ALEX exe. ? Reason I ask is I am still trying to work out best way to make battles decisive, this would involve one balanced stack for each Polis, with recruitment for further stacks difficult. Except Persia which should be able to field a slightly greater amount of troops...representing a Satraps local army.
 
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