[Preview] House Stark of Winterfell

It's been a long while since I was involved with this project, and I just have to say . . . wow! I'm really looking forwards to this.
 
Robb will have a battle model ? Or he will be just like other stark generals ?
 
ooh nice thank ya i thought that was just a image for the lolz
 
Dear god that looks awesome! Totally amazing work guys! :D:D Stark FTW! :D
 
Hmm, shouldn't the equipment be more late 14th - early 16th century?
have you even read the books?
anyway....

16thcentarmor.jpg


they do not look like this...i can assure you...
 
have you even read the books?
anyway....
they do not look like this...i can assure you...

Really there ain't that many descriptions of the different units that you can take from the books, mostly GRRM describes the heraldic symbols and colors very well. Yes he describes some armors and weapons that belongs to main characters, when it comes to the average soldiers he leaves a lot to the imagination. I really love the art that has been developed here at TWC obviously quite different from the HBO series, maybe not, remains to be seen.... Seven days remaining!
 
have you even read the books?
anyway....

they do not look like this...i can assure you...
I have read the books, yes, and I have a good knowledge of the history of armor. Better than GRRM's, methinks. So if we iron out a few total anachronisms, his gear is mostly applicable to the 14th/15th century, with some 16th century stylistic additions.


BTW, for real life cultural/stylistic counterparts I see the following:
1. North - Scotland/Ireland/[northern] England
2. Westerlands, Riverlands, Vale, the Reach and the Stormlands - generic western Europe, with a few variations.
3. The Free Cities - Italy. I mean, c'mon, the Bravosi are wearing mother:wub:ing rapiers and running around in slashed trousers!
 
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I have read the books, yes, and I have a good knowledge of the history of armor. Better than GRRM's, methinks. So if we iron out a few total anachronisms, his gear is mostly applicable to the 14th/15th century, with some 16th century stylistic additions.

yes there seems to be some exaggerations made by Martin there seems to be 3 levels of armor concerning what he says and what we can logically deduce. the governing system is very feudal system and they do not seem to be technologically advanced to the level of the late 15th or early 16th century. i mean they sill use galleys and longboats for pete's sake. I think there are a few levels when it comes to Martin and armors, first you got nobles like Jaime and Renly whose armor is well in the 16th century that probably look like this except the armor is highly decorated that is highly decorated. you know something like this.
and then you got knights that would probobly not have such expensive looking armor but instead still look awesome in regular plate. resembling the 14th century...something like this
l_72007_French_Knights.jpg


then you got the rest of westeros and the "regular" troops, even George in an interview said that the medieval history was grim and the troops look even grimmer with everyone wearing brown and grey while the knights had Red, blue, yellow and green while riding their similarly colorful horses.
so, in conclusion the regular troops should look something like this:
l_025_Medieval_Crossbowmen.jpg

l_8059_Peasant_Army.jpg

l_72040_men-at-arms_and_retinue.jpg


and lets not forget that GRRM said that he was heavily influenced by the war of roses.
 
for some reason i cant edit so, in short i think that GRRM was aiming to have some noble armors and weapons to be like 16th plus century while the rest of the stuff is 14th-ish with a hind of 12th century thrown in for the peasants and levies. if there were more technological advancements and there was at least some small use in gun powder then yea that would make sense that they would wear the stuff i linked in my first post, since they dont i am leaning on what i linked in my second post.
 
yes there seems to be some exaggerations made by Martin there seems to be 3 levels of armor concerning what he says and what we can logically deduce. the governing system is very feudal system and they do not seem to be technologically advanced to the level of the late 15th or early 16th century. i mean they sill use galleys and longboats for pete's sake.
The last major battle between galleys, Lepanto, was in 1571(?), IIRC.
I think there are a few levels when it comes to Martin and armors, first you got nobles like Jaime and Renly whose armor is well in the 16th century that probably look like this except the armor is highly decorated that is highly decorated. you know something like this.
and then you got knights that would probobly not have such expensive looking armor but instead still look awesome in regular plate. resembling the 14th century...something like this
l_72007_French_Knights.jpg
And look, that's perfectly consistent with what I said. Because those knights in the picture are late 15th century.

then you got the rest of westeros and the "regular" troops, even George in an interview said that the medieval history was grim and the troops look even grimmer with everyone wearing brown and grey while the knights had Red, blue, yellow and green while riding their similarly colorful horses.
Well, duh. That's kinda obvious for any period in history. I dislike you using the term "regulars", though, since there was no such thing back then. Armies should be composed of three levels:
1. Personal household troops of lords (both cavalry and infantry) - the best equipped troops of all, the only ones with a degree of uniformity.
2. Landed knights and feudal peasant conscripts - numerous but lower in quality.
3. Yeomanry, city militias and mercenaries - outside the feudal ladder. Extremely varied in every aspect.


and lets not forget that GRRM said that he was heavily influenced by the war of roses.
Dafuq, dude. Now you finally agree?


Either way, me personally I'd be happy to see more sallets and more polearms. Less mail, since it was more expensive than plate by the late medieval era. And definitely much fewer kite shields. But that's just me and my obsession with accurate equipment.
 
Dafuq, dude. Now you finally agree?

yes i do, well to some degree, i think that only the nobles and maybe some really rich knight houses could actually afford the armors that look like they are from the 16th century.

as for anyone below the rank of rich knights or nobles...GRRM never really described what the troops looked like but from most arts that i have seen for War of Roses, there are high amounts of really heavy armor and equipment on the field...i really doubt any of the westerosi houses can actually field something like that.
also i really cant imagine the westerosi people be dressed in 15th-16th century fashion. i dont know the whole setting seems to indicate that most armies were dressed with rudimentary arms and armor while the knights and noble families are dressed in incredibly beautiful and powerful armor.


so in short no...i dont think that the westerosi armies resembled this:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cool-art/4488937913/

but something like this
http://www.conflicts.rem33.com/images/deut/teutonicorum_files/image009.jpg
 
Accurate equipment in a fantasy world setting is total *BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP* and deserves no such further *Bleep* thought. :P

Joking of course ^^

We have alot of information on armour and weapons from GRRM. As you stated Blatter Optimus Maximus (sorry, couldn't help myself. Sounded like the best Transformer ever :thumbsup2 ), the main part of Westeros seems to be in an age equivlent to the 14th/15th century with some 16th century stylistic armourments, perticullary for the Knights. Also there is the large extent of using pikeformations and longbows/crossbows in union, which can be seen evidently in the Westerlands. (Take the Battle of the Green Fork for instance) However, I do not think GRRM has minded the fact that you also stated, that chainmail in this era was less in evidence, due to its effort and time-consuming making. We have many sources of mail being used to a great extent. Night's Watch, Gold Cloaks, retuines etc etc. On kite shields I cannot comment, as my memory gives me no clear proof of the extent of this type of shield in larger formations, but I do remember that Vardis Egan used a kiteshield in his duel with Bronn, and I also seem to recall some usage of it in the Blackwater River Battle.

Overall, I think the developers are doing a pretty damn decent job of equipment accuracy in this mod, based from what sources we have. :thumbsup2

Edit: Also, as a sidenote, the Iron Islands seems to be mostly 9th/10th Century equipped. Think late viking era, as in the time of the Saxon/Scandinavian wars in Britain.
 
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Love the units! Now I'm deffinitely going to play as the Starks! Keep up the great work guys, this looks amazing :)
 
Accurate equipment in a fantasy world setting is total *BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP* and deserves no such further *Bleep* thought. :P

Joking of course ^^

We have alot of information on armour and weapons from GRRM. As you stated Blatter Optimus Maximus (sorry, couldn't help myself. Sounded like the best Transformer ever :thumbsup2 ), the main part of Westeros seems to be in an age equivlent to the 14th/15th century with some 16th century stylistic armourments, perticullary for the Knights. Also there is the large extent of using pikeformations and longbows/crossbows in union, which can be seen evidently in the Westerlands. (Take the Battle of the Green Fork for instance) However, I do not think GRRM has minded the fact that you also stated, that chainmail in this era was less in evidence, due to its effort and time-consuming making. We have many sources of mail being used to a great extent. Night's Watch, Gold Cloaks, retuines etc etc. On kite shields I cannot comment, as my memory gives me no clear proof of the extent of this type of shield in larger formations, but I do remember that Vardis Egan used a kiteshield in his duel with Bronn, and I also seem to recall some usage of it in the Blackwater River Battle.

Overall, I think the developers are doing a pretty damn decent job of equipment accuracy in this mod, based from what sources we have. :thumbsup2

Edit: Also, as a sidenote, the Iron Islands seems to be mostly 9th/10th Century equipped. Think late viking era, as in the time of the Saxon/Scandinavian wars in Britain.

The iron islands are not specifically 9th/10th century, since their equipment is not specified for the most part. As for longships, those remained in use in Scotland, Ireland and Iceland well into the 17th century, albeit with some upgrades.

Kite shields - well, kite shields were used by infantry in the flat-topped version for quite a long time, although I think GRRM might be confusing them with heater shields.

so in short no...i dont think that the westerosi armies resembled this:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cool-art/4488937913/

Ahum, I never said that. I was talking about armor, I never said they were all 16th century. So either learn to read, or quit :wub:ing.
 
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The iron islands are not specifically 9th/10th century, since their equipment is not specified for the most part. As for longships, those remained in use in Scotland, Ireland and Iceland well into the 17th century, albeit with some upgrades.

Obviously GRRM's inspiration for the Ironborn are the Vikings, mostly based on the rip and run tactics they use when invading the north and the reach. That same tactic was used by Danish and Norse vikings all over Saxony, Normandy and England, often the great scandinavian sailors was halfway home before the locals could send for reinforcements, if im not wrong this was as early as year 850 to 900 im not sure (i should be though since im Swedish and my middle name is Viking) :laughter:
 
The iron islands are not specifically 9th/10th century, since their equipment is not specified for the most part. As for longships, those remained in use in Scotland, Ireland and Iceland well into the 17th century, albeit with some upgrades.

Why yes, the Longships, same as galleys were used much longer than from the time that were their "prime".

I was speaking more generally about their techniques and strategies, and some of their equipment. Their equipment seems to be mostly ringmail for the veterans, Lords, captains or prominent fighters. Others seems to rely on leather jerkins, padded or not and bits of fur. Axes seems to be an quite prominent weapon for the Ironborn.

If you ignore the historical inaccurecies with their helmets... (Illustration of 10th Century vikings):

vikings3.jpg

Edit: @Korpskog My point exactly! Also, nice to see more swedes here! Our army is growing! :viking:

This is propably a bit more accurate version: (illustration of 9th Century viking raid)

tumblr_ln544yu1D51qe23mao1_500.jpg

Illustration of Olav Tryggvarson's last stand (10th Century)

olof-trygvassons-last-stand.jpg

Illustration of a 9th Century Huscarl:

huscarl_concept.jpg

Reminder: These are later illustrations, there were very few illustrated examples from this time, and those wern't very detailed. But they give a pretty good picture of equipment.
 
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And Victarion with his plate armor and kraken-shaped barbuta? How does that fit your pictures?


Or do you honestly suppose I don't know viking armor like the back of my hand. That said, Ironborn are quite anachronistic, but that doesn't mean they're vikings just because we may think of them as such.
 
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Edit: @Korpskog My point exactly! Also, nice to see more swedes here! Our army is growing! :viking:

Kul att höra kapten! :viking: :viking: :viking:

Blatta Optima Maxima said:
And Victarion with his plate armor and kraken-shaped barbuta? How does that fit your pictures?

Obviously it does not fit any of those pictures at all, and also it does not fit any description of vikings that I have ever heard about. I do not doubt that you know plenty about armor and equipment, that much you have proven! You are right the Ironborn are no vikings but GRRM have obviously taken a lot of inspiration when it comes to armor/equipment (common soldiers), fighting-style (both naval and ground). They rape and pillage, take thralls, claim the "ironprize" and such, sounds very viking-like to me.

As for Victarion Greyjoy he is as highborn as any member of a great westeros-house and therefore can afford a full-plated armor if he wishes to have one (that much can't be said about the rest of the ironfleet). As for the vikings they eventually stopped raiding and evolved to a stereotype feudal agricultural society, maybe that will happen to the Ironborn?
 
It is also stated that Victarion was something special, and pretty much the only one who wore full plate because he had absolutely no fear (of drowning).
 
And Victarion with his plate armor and kraken-shaped barbuta? How does that fit your pictures?


Or do you honestly suppose I don't know viking armor like the back of my hand. That said, Ironborn are quite anachronistic, but that doesn't mean they're vikings just because we may think of them as such.

Trust me, I don't doubt your knowledge of this. You have again and again proven your vast understanding of this. Nor do I claim that they are vikings per say, as we also know they have their variations. Like you said, Victarion and then there's also that Ser Harlaw with his Valyrian sword. What I am trying to say is that based upon the evidence from descriptions, we can assume with somewhat certainty that the society, warfare and equipment of the Ironborn as a people, that they are inspired by or perhaps even go to as far as based upon the 9/10th century vikings.

I see your point, but do you see mine? :)
 
Thanks for all the lovely comments chaps :)

Can we move the debate (if you want to continue it that is ;)) away from this thread though? Tusen tack :buba:
 
Obviously it does not fit any of those pictures at all, and also it does not fit any description of vikings that I have ever heard about. I do not doubt that you know plenty about armor and equipment, that much you have proven! You are right the Ironborn are no vikings but GRRM have obviously taken a lot of inspiration when it comes to armor/equipment (common soldiers), fighting-style (both naval and ground). They rape and pillage, take thralls, claim the "ironprize" and such, sounds very viking-like to me.
Yes, well, most infantry throughout history have been unarmored save for maybe light helmets, which is the case for both Ironborn and Vikings. So that obviously means they're the same. Oh, and the rape&pillage&burn everything? That's obviously unique for vikings!

Anyway, I am not denying the Ironborn are based on vikings, what I am saying is that it shouldn't guide our perception of their equipment. I'd say they're not exactly like vikings, but rather what would've become of vikings had they still maintained their lifestyle in the 15th century.
 
GUYS ITS A FICTIONAL WORLD STOP ARGUING OVER ARMOUR INACCURICIES PLEASE
Sorry for the caps but i find this quite annoying, this world is quite different to our own! Whose to say things developed at the same pace etc.
 
Just something to add to the debate, i hope it ends soon (WRONG PLACE! HERE WE LOOK AT THE BEAUTIFUL STARKS :D ):

Yes, the Ironborn are based somewhat on the Vikings. But saying that they are just like vikings would be wrong- Just take the Dothraki for example. Those aren`t just mongols, but also share some similarities with the native americans and many twists of Martins own design. (Like their arakhs.. Which are similar to the dacian falx)

The Greyjoys will get an overhaul- Their old units will be redone and changed. So i can`t be sure what equipment they will use exactly but it will keep in line with the books. Leather, mail. Open helmets. Some might use old scale mail, while other experienced raiders might have a piece of plate armor, too. They will kinda look like vikings that have adapted themselves somewhat to the 13, 14 or 15 century while keeping their old fighting style.
 

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