Lord Mov said:

Not justifying what happened 2 decades ago with this event, I'm saying the current event is just a stark reminder of what it would mean for Armenians to live within Azeri society. A society that is dangerously intolerable to Armenians.

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This is unfortunately true. On twitter I was receiving many death threats (baseless threats undoubtedly) from Azeri users simply because they saw my Armenian name (I only use twitter strictly for baseball updates).

A peace settlement recognizing NK's independence and creating understanding amongst the populations would be good for Armenians and Azeris alike who would like to live in Karabakh, and even Azerbaijan and Armenia again rather than as refugees.

Drtad said:

This is unfortunately true. On twitter I was receiving many death threats (baseless threats undoubtedly) from Azeri users simply because they saw my Armenian name (I only use twitter strictly for baseball updates).

A peace settlement recognizing NK's independence and creating understanding amongst the populations would be good for Armenians and Azeris alike who would like to live in Karabakh, and even Azerbaijan and Armenia again rather than as refugees.

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They don't even allow people with Armenian last name into Azerbaijan, regardless of citizenship. The amount of racism and utter propaganda against Armenians there is at really disturbing levels, and this really should be factored into the peace process. Azeris make big statements about Karabkah people living within Azerbaijan's territorial integrity, but how can you do that when Armenians are compared to bacteria in your country?

TheSutekh said:

The two are connected only in the other direction. The future is not an indication of a past situation.

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So if tomorrow Karabakh becomes part of Azerbaijan, all this hate and racism against Armenians will evaporate? You cannot one one hand advocate for a region to be incorporated in your country, but at the same time make your country intolerable towards the people of that region. It's hypocrisy at its best, and acts like glorifying an axe murderer, only show the outside world that indeed it would be a bad idea for the given region to be within that country's borders as the people of that region will not be respected as equal citizens and their lives will in fact be in danger as a result of a racist ideology that is widespread in the society.

TheSutekh said:

Enough with this BS? Considering the fact that majority of the hostilities today is a result of NK it is idiotic to use it as a justification for NK.

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BS? No actually it's very relevant to current confidence building measures. You can't have any peace without such measures. When a county whines about a region returning to its borders, it should be ready to treat those citizens as normal human beings. What goes on in Azerbaijan today, shows a much more dismal reality. This case alone is not justification. This case is just a stark reminder. One case like this cannot be used for justification, but it serves as a symbolic reminder.

TheSutekh said:

Enough with this BS? Considering the fact that majority of the hostilities today is a result of NK it is idiotic to use it as a justification for NK.

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I'm confused here. Are you saying that the hostilities caused by NK being independent do not come into play when returning NK to Azeri?

International Law disagrees thankfully. International law I'd remind you that Turkey and the Azeri agreed to. Azeri does not have their right to territorial integrity by international law. There's no debating that. Azeri hostilities have demonstrated on numerous occassions that they do not appreciate the sanctity of life. I've posted this before but since you seem to have missed it, the Azeri's only have the right to territorial integrity if they are "in compliance with the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples' and allows a subject people 'to pursue their economic, social and cultural development' as required by United Nations General Assembly Resolution 2625(XXV)"

Their statements, actions and even historical conflict negates this. The Azeri's do not own the territory under international law. Nato does not recognize it. The UN does not recognize it except in a non-binding resolution passed by Azeri allies (non-binding because Russia, US etc voted against it while over 108 countries abstained).

Even historically the territory is not the Azeri's. The NK was lumped into Azeri territory by the United Soviet Socialist Republics in a process of divide and conquer, essentially they split Azeri and Armenian territories in a misguided effort to make them more managable. Azeri claims to be the continuation of the Azeribaijan Republic of 1918-1920 until they were taken by the USSR not the continuation of the Azeri Soviet Socialist Republic. However the Azeri's formally gave up the territory right before the USSR collapsed denying any claim USSR or pre USSR. It's very important to note that before this occurred in 1920 Azeri did not control and was not recognized to own the lands in NK.

Thus your statements that it's Azeri territory remain to be validated. They're no more Azeri territory than the Philippines belong to the US. How are the territories Azerbaijan's? What claim do they lay to them corroborated by what evidence?

TheSutekh said:

Yup, BS. You can't use results of your former up to justify that up. That said, though repeated now that you refuse to understand it, the hostilities goes both ways. You're desperately trying to attack Azerbaijan and paint them in a negative way yet ignore the fact that your state welcomed terrorists. And, frankly, that's much worse and a stark reminder, as you say, of the hypocrisy you present.

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I made myself quite clear that I'm not using this event to justify what happened 2 decades before - it's only symbolic. So stop repeating the same lines over again. Desperately trying to attack Azerbaijan? One really doesn't have to be desperate to condemn Azerbaijan over this. Actually pretty much the whole world condemned Azerbaijan over this, is the whole world also desperate to attack oil rich Azerbaijan? The case about ASALA is not parallel to this as Azerbaijan is proclaiming that the Armenian region should live with in its borders.

TheSutekh said:

What I said about NK was pretty simple. You can't use hostilities caused by NK to justify NK. It doesn't go that way but in the other direction. The past dictates the future, not the other way around.

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The hostilities are not caused by NK. The loss of NK has increased hostilities, but they were around before that to one degree or another for over a century.

I made myself quite clear that I'm not using this event to justify what happened 2 decades before - it's only symbolic. So stop repeating the same lines over again. Desperately trying to attack Azerbaijan? One really doesn't have to be desperate to condemn Azerbaijan over this. Actually pretty much the whole world condemned Azerbaijan over this, is the whole world also desperate to attack oil rich Azerbaijan? The case about ASALA is not parallel to this as Azerbaijan is proclaiming that the Armenian region should live with in its borders.

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Indeed. Also, the ASALA actions certainly aren't supported by most Armenians (diaspora or otherwise)- only select Dashnaks. Most regular people probably don't even know the name of the ASALA.

Drtad said:

Indeed. Also, the ASALA actions certainly aren't supported by most Armenians (diaspora or otherwise)- only select Dashnaks. Most regular people probably don't even know the name of the ASALA.

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That's true, many Armenians recognise that ASALA actions were not good for the Armenian cause. It's just during the 70s and 80s, such groups became a norm of many movements, like Basques, Irish Republicans, Croatians, Communist Groups, and so forth.

TheSutekh said:

-Snip-

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Your tacit lack of an actual argument is actually kinda cute.

TheSutekh said:

The you can't use it to justify what caused it in the first place. If only you've merely condemned it. Somehow these threads are quick to turn into an Armenian propaganda thread. And, I still prefer the state that pardons a soldier for killing an enemy soldier over the state that welcomes terrorists.

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This argument is quite laughable, and shows an ignorance of the actual stance of the Armenian community today and the incredible propaganda machine of the Azeri government.

So you prefer a state that welcomed a terrorist over a state that pardoned a man who chopped a sleeping man into pieces with an axe. If I phrased it that way and only compared those two cases specifically to judge a state (a ridiculous argument) then I'd say I preferred neither rather than one over the other... but ok?

Considering the fact that he lost his family in an Armenian attack this case was indeed caused by the NK. The current hostilities are a result of the NK issue.

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Allegedly. He also claimed that he fought in the war, but he was in fact in school at the time. Unless he was there I don't think he can say for certain whether his family perished in an Armenian attack since the facts are quite muddled by Azeri (and some Armenian) propaganda. But you act so surprised about propaganda when it is plain as day that every kingdom/country/nation-state in the history of the world has used propaganda at one point or another... Armenia no exception.

Azerbaijan's propaganda is simply more inflammatory and has already caused the complete archaeological destruction of Armenian artifacts and monuments in Nakhichevan to prove that it was historic Azeri land. Quite hurtful, especially to a student of archaeology such as myself...

There was actually petitions signed by over a million Armenians for the release of ASALA members. Given that it's clear that Ramil Safarov never got the same support from Azerbaijani people as ASALA terrorists got from Armenian people.

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How exactly is that clear? Your figures are for "over a million Armenians" which is far less than "most Armenians" and those figures are dated to a time when war fervor was quite high probably considering the times. I'm one hundred percent sure the number of Armenians who support ASALA actions is far less now, and their opinions are pretty irrelevant now anyway considering the amount of ASALA activity in the past few decades (none).

TheSutekh said:

Using loaded words doesn't make up an argument. Yes, I prefer a state that welcomes a murderer more than I'd prefer a state that welcomes a terrorist. Armenia pardoned a soldier of it's own that killed an enemy soldier. I'd be surprised if they didn't pardon him. It's real politics. However, Armenians moving in mass to have a terrorist pardoned is just corrupt.

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Honestly there is no appropriate response to this other than laughter.

It's real politics, that's why it's okay. I'm sure Safarov is a very well-balanced individual and I'd love to have a chat with him sometime.

I'm not saying the ASALA was right in their actions, but keep in mind other organizations that resorted to terrorism and even caused the deaths of many civilians with their actions, such as the African National Congress. Nelson Mandela helped coordinate bombings of government targets which often led to civilian deaths (see some cases of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission). I don't personally agree with the tactics he employed, but surely it's understandable why he was released.

Where do I act surprised? Why would I take one piece of propaganda over an other? I don't se them pointing out that his family was a victim of aggression. If this was an Armenian guy with a family killed due to Azerbaijani aggression then I wouldn't call that propaganda piece just because it doesn't go well with my stance. You're free to bend information to your own agenda though.

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You are clearly taking the side of Azeri propaganda (Safarov's family was killed in an Armenian attack, he was a soldier who killed another soldier, etc). All cold-blooded murders must be appropriately condemned especially if the attacker shows no remorse and is in fact emboldened.

Care to show here I use the phrase "most Armenian"? The fact remains that a considerable percentage of Armenians supported ASALA terrorists. Somehow war fervor is a factor to understand such actions of Armenian actions but it goes ignored for Azerbaijani actions when their lands have been occupied (and I'm even excluding NK) for over a decade now.

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I said "most Armenians don't support ASALA actions" and you responded with "Actually over a million Armenians signed a petition." It seemed as though you were refuting my point even though a million isn't even 15% of the Armenian community, at a time when thousands of Armenian refugees were pouring into diaspora communities due to Azeri pogroms and were fueling nationalist rhetoric. I never said the actions were okay but they were somewhat understandable during a time of war. Keep in mind the ceasefire, however tenuous it is. There shouldn't be any attempt by either side to fuel aggression or "patriotism."

Again, the fact that you belittle the Safarov pardoning (and the length they went to do so) as an expected and understandable action is ridiculous.

I was laughing at my desk.

Your view of reality is so skewed by Turkish and Azeri propaganda that you can't see the Armenian side of the story. Pardoning Safarov is wrong, it's as simple as that. If you can't see that much, then it's sad. He chopped up a sleeping man who had not hurt Safarov in any way, shape, or form.

I am viewing this incident and the ASALA case with a broad lens and making comparisons with other similar global incidents (the ANC). You won't do so, either due to bias or an ignorance of pertinent histories, or both.

The semantics over the "most Armenians" thing is of negligible importance.

TheSutekh said:

It might be better for you to get off your invisible high horse if you wanna maintain some credibility as your claims about how better your views are is just ridiculous. At least don't lie about my points and don't try to distort reality while applying a gross double standard. I'd expect better...

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The hypocrisy in this post is fantastic...

First of all, the branding of all ASALA members as "terrorists" is very misleading. Talking about Melkonian specifically, his goals were not as simple as just terror. He saw a denial of historical facts by the Turkish government, and when the government did not relent in their suppression of minorities (like the Kurds) he took violent action. I personally don't believe any violent action, especially against civilians, is justifiable. However, this idea is not limited to Melkonian, who also fought on behalf of Palestinian and Kurdish terrorists. I compared it to Nelson Mandela, who said:

"...we felt that without violence there would be no way open to the African people to succeed in their struggle against the principle of white supremacy. All lawful modes of expressing opposition to this principle had been closed by legislation, and we were placed in a position in which we had either to accept a permanent state of inferiority, or to defy the Government. We chose to defy the law."

His actions in Umkhonto we Sizwe caused civilian deaths and the deaths of government policemen. When apartheid fell, he was released and made President. Does that show corruption in the Xhosa and Zulu communities of South Africa? Are they making a hero out of a terrorist?

People are generally not one-dimensional. Melkonian's writings and ideas were not as simple as bloodlust against Turkic people. You criticize Armenia for making him a national hero, but ignore these facts. Do I personally agree with violence? No, but your logic is seriously skewed. Dismissing someone like Melkonian as a terrorist made into a hero by a corrupt community is an incorrect mindset.

TheSutekh said:

And now we're back to defending terrorists... You even have the guts to parallel killing of civilians due to their views to an armed anti-apartheid struggle. I thought your posts couldn't sank even deeper. I guess I was wrong...

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Both organizations caused the deaths of civilians. I was specifically referring to Melkonian, who is not as one-dimensional as you claim, like Mandela. It is simply misleading to write him off as a terrorist as you are doing.

Turkey and Azerbaijan have not been kind to their minorities and that is a fact. Armenians in Karabakh did not want to live under Azerbaijan's control and rightfully so- the government violently persecuted many Armenians. Someone with an Armenian last name cannot even travel within Azerbaijan. All presence of Armenians, modern, ancient, and medieval has been erased from Nakhichevan by government programs. If you can't see the disturbing trend here, then that is a result of bias.

Wow, just it is unbelieveable. Armenians have guts to defend ASALA actions, lol, an terrorist organisation. LOL.

This is a distraction like any discussion of Armenia/Azerbaijan's military capabilities.
Safarov murdered a man. He was given life imprisonment. Azerbaijan requested his extradition in exchange for a promise of upholding his sentence. Safarov is extradited. Azerbaijan releases him and honors his actions.

Armenia did not force Azerbaijan to do anything. Armenia did not force Safarov to murder a man in his sleep.

white-wolf said:

Wow, just it is unbelieveable. Armenians have guts to defend ASALA actions, lol, an terrorist organisation. LOL.

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You should read the posts more carefully:

Drtad said:

I personally don't believe any violent action, especially against civilians, is justifiable.

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Lord Mov said:

You should read the posts more carefully:

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First of all, the branding of all ASALA members as "terrorists" is very misleading.

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I assume I am and the rest of the world are wrong, and the ASALA members were flower children.

John's post is on the money.

white-wolf said:

I assume I am and the rest of the world are wrong, and the ASALA members were flower children.

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I don't believe I ever said that... I said that Melkonian was not a simple terrorist and was not one-dimensional. Hagopian, on the other hand, was a nutcase. I also said that I don't believe their actions were justified as Lord Mov pointed out.

white-wolf said:

I assume I am and the rest of the world are wrong, and the ASALA members were flower children.

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You are putting words in his mouth. Don't do that. Not a honest way of argument.

Lord Mov said:

You are putting words in his mouth. Don't do that. Not a honest way of argument.

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I am not putting words in others mouth. ASALA members are scum. I can not find enough words to tell ones who try to white wash them or some of them.

white-wolf said:

I assume I am and the rest of the world are wrong, and the ASALA members were flower children.

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white-wolf said:

I am not putting words in others mouth. ASALA members are scum. I can not find enough words to tell ones who try to white wash them or some of them.

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You were somehow implying that Drtad was saying ASALA members are flower children....that was my issue.

Lord Mov said:

You were somehow implying that Drtad was saying ASALA members are flower children....that was my issue.

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Yet, he says

First of all, the branding of all ASALA members as "terrorists" is very misleading.

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I sorry that if you are offended my assumption from his words that he defends "some" terrorist.

white-wolf said:

Yet, he says

I sorry that if you are offended my assumption from his words that he defends "some" terrorist.

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In that statement he was referring to Melkonian specifically, in that he was not a simple terrorist and not one-dimensional as for example Hagobian was in their actions.

Lord Mov said:

In that statement he was referring to Melkonian specifically, in that he was not a simple terrorist and not one-dimensional as for example Hagobian was in their actions.

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Yeah I know Melkonian is Your Hero because of Karabagh war. However, it does not change that he was a terrorist. And Melkonian and his career-friends' case - their status in Armenia - is the irony about this thread.

white-wolf said:

Yeah I know Melkonian is Your Hero because of Karabagh war. However, it does not change that he was a terrorist. And Melkonian and his career-friends' case - their status in Armenia - is the irony about this thread.

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And he is considered a hero for his efforts in Karabakh, not for his time in ASALA. No ASALA member besides him is considered national hero in Armenia. His actions to obtain hero status were done on the battlefield.

white-wolf said:

Yet, he says

I sorry that if you are offended my assumption from his words that he defends "some" terrorist.

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I'm not defending his terrorist actions. I clearly stated that labeling him a terrorist is misleading because he was not a one-dimensional person like other ASALA members.

"not one-dimensional" does not mean "his terrorist actions were great"

As I said, I personally don't condone violence as the ultimate solution for any problem. I would never defend terrorist actions. If you think I am, then you are mistaken.

Safarov to Return to Active Duty

BAKU (RFE/RL)—Ramil Safarov, the Azerbaijani army officer who had hacked to death an Armenian colleague in Hungary, will return to active duty military service soon, a senior Azerbaijani military official said over the weekend.
“Right now Ramil Safarov is on vacation and having a rest. He will return to service after the vacation,” Major-General Ramiz Najafov, head of the external relations department at the Azerbaijani Ministry of Defense, told the SalamNews agency. Najafov did not specify whether Safarov will serve and in what capacity.
Citing “threats” from Armenia, the general also said that Azerbaijani authorities are taking “necessary measures” to protect him against possible assassination attempts. “Relevant structures are taking security measures with regard to Safarov,” he said.
Safarov received a hero’s welcome in Baku on August 31 following his extradition from Hungary and immediate pardoning by President Ilham Aliyev more than eight years after he axe-murdered Armenian Lieutenant Gurgen Markarian during a NATO training course in Budapest. He was promoted from the rank of lieutenant to major, granted a free apartment and paid eight years’ worth of back pay the following day.
Azerbaijani Defense Minister Safar Abiyev personally met with the 35-year-old and wished him future success in his military career. Safarov, who was sentenced to life imprisonment by a Hungarian court in 2006, has not been seen in public since then.
The release of the convicted axe-killer has provoked a furious reaction from Armenia and strong international criticism. The United States, the European Union and Russia consider it a serious blow to their long-running efforts to broker a peaceful solution to the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict.
“We continue to express our dismay and disappointment,” U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Philip Gordon told RFE/RL in Washington on Thursday.
“In our view, this is someone who should have continued to serve out his sentence, and certainly we were appalled by the glorification that we heard in some quarters of somebody who was convicted of murder,” Gordon said.
Najafov insisted, however, that Aliyev’s decision to pardon Safarov was an “exceptionally humane step.”

http://asbarez.com/105644/safarov-to-return-to-active-duty/

Im guessing he will be killed by his own troops, blame will be put on Armenia for violating ceasefire and he will be proclaimed a national hero.

gago said:

Im guessing he will be killed by his own troops, blame will be put on Armenia for violating ceasefire and he will be proclaimed a national hero.

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It's a possibility. I really don't know what to expect from the Aliyev Regime anymore. Their oil levels have been dropping so that might mean the regime taking extraordinary steps.

Lord Mov said:

It's a possibility. I really don't know what to expect from the Aliyev Regime anymore. Their oil levels have been dropping so that might mean the regime taking extraordinary steps.

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Apparently they are in need of money, they claim Karabakh owes them $431.5 billion in damages

Baku seeks $431,5 bn. in “damages” from Karabakh

September 25, 2012 - 16:24 AMT
PanARMENIAN.Net - Azeri Ministry of Economic development assessed the “total damage” inflicted to Azerbaijan as a result of a so-called Armenian “occupation,” or rather, liberation of historical Armenian lands.Azeri calculations boiled down to an astronomical sum of $431,5 bn. Azeri Ministries of Ecology and Economic Development, as well as a State Committee on Refugee and IDPs Affairs had a hand in cooking up the figure. Moreover, as Baku assures the damage assessment is still in progress.
Clearly, the “assessment” came as a result of Astana-hosted international congress of appraisers where Baku was instructed to develop the standards of assessing the damages suffered in the international conflict.
Moreover, calls to sue Armenia in international court for economic damages are becoming louder in Baku.
One may suppose, the “total damages” will be growing in proportion to the frequency of those calls.
Back in 2005, Azeri assessed a similar damage at $26,5 bn, with the figure having magically swollen up by over 16 times in 7 years.
Obviously, Baku has finally realized that the Nagorno Karabakh Republic will never become a part of the country propagating hatred towards Armenian nation and bringing up a generation of axe-killers.
So, to have something to show for it, Azerbaijan, with over a $22 bn state budget, is trying to make a market of Karabakh.
Marina Ananikyan / PanARMENIAN News
http://www.panarmenian.net/eng/news/124441/

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