Using force_diplomacy as a feature

[Razor]

I've been thinking about the gameplay and although conquering regions and playing battles is what makes a Total War game, fighting out endless wars and battle after battle can turn into something of a grind. It also doesn't help that diplomacy in Total War generally isn't all that stellar to begin with either to say the least. Many may have heard of the force_diplomacy cheat, which forces the AI to accept almost any offer that you make when doing diplomacy versus the AI (except bribes). This also allows you to force factions to become allies and vassals and give regions to you etc. etc. It also happens to be that in M2TW the territory of your vassals counts as territory that you control for fulfilling victory conditions of the campaign. This makes it much easier to achieve control over a large number of regions without having to actually conquer them. So, I was thinking of implementing the force_diplomacy command into the mod's gameplay triggered under specific conditions to help preventing the big grind that often occurs in the mid to later stages of a campaign.

This was my idea:

Kyoto is controlled by the Ashikaga Shogunate faction. If you conquer Kyoto and kill the Shogun your faction standing with other factions will decrease instantly and many factions will start to dislike you even more over time (enemies and neutral ones more than allies) the longer you own Kyoto. If you own Kyoto you can eventually install a new Shogun and return the territory to the Shogun if you want (or keep Kyoto and kill the new Shogun if you want for some reason. Rinse and repeat).

But now: why would you want to keep Kyoto? Well, historically the Miyoshi clan attacked Kyoto in 1565 and killed the puppet Shogun Ashikaga Yoshiteru because he was trying to break away from the influence of the Miyoshi clan. The Miyoshi clan kept control of Kyoto without installing a new Shogun (not sure what the reasoning behind this was exactly). It was Oda Nobunaga who after mediation by Akechi Mitsuhide took up arms and marched towards Kyoto in name of Yoshiaki Ashikaga. After conquering Kyoto Nobunaga installed Yoshiaki as the new (puppet) Shogun. After a while the relationship between Nobunaga and the Shogun Yoshiaki in Kyoto began to go sour and the Shogun began plotting against Nobunaga. Nobunaga eventually ousted the Shogun from Kyoto in 1573 and became basically the new central ruler without using the old title of Shogun. From there he continued conquering/unifying Japan until he got betrayed and killed by Akechi Mitsuhide in Kyoto. From the internal collapse and strife Hashiba (later Toyotomi) Hideyoshi inherited the legacy of Nobunaga and ultimately finished the unification of Japan.


So what might be interesting to use in the mod bearing this in mind?

Keeping a good relations with the Ashikaga Shogunate or installing a "puppet" Shogun in Kyoto allows you to keep up somewhat of a facade of the old system while trying to use it to further your own goals and conquer Japan without angering other factions more than they already are. At the least you're being protected somewhat by the Ashikaga Shogunate that can excommunicate other factions and call crusades. However, this process is slow and the Shogun will eventually start to dislike you just as much as he does other factions. He will act more independently and could 'excommunicate' you as well as others if you get into conflict with him.

Now, removing the Shogun and keeping Kyoto for yourself and not installing a new Shogun, will effectively make you the new Shogun. However, owning Kyoto while you're just a minor faction with for example just 3 regions shouldn't impress big factions with 20+ regions at all. Also the negatives should outweigh the positives for keeping Kyoto for yourself in such a scenario. However, if you own Kyoto and you're an actual powerful faction to back up your authority (say top 3 or top 5) it should create a situation in which the force_diplomacy command can start to play a role.

If you then engage in a war with a faction you can send a diplomat and ask them to become a vassal and the AI will accept if certain conditions are met. It would be nice if in the script the game can check if your faction is top 5 (or so) and the other faction is not (and/or compare power balance). If conditions are met then the force_diplomacy command has for example a 75% to trigger when you engage with the faction in diplomacy. You can then force the faction to become your vassal or whatever (the AI faction will automatically "barely" accept it). This way you gain control over territory through the vassal mechanic and expand your empire not just by endlessly conquering the whole map.

Now, would this not make the campaign too easy? Well... possibly, but there are many ways to balance this out. Historically the unification process was temporarily halted by the death of Nobunaga after he got betrayed and the interal conflicts that followed. What if the bonusses can be balanced out by implementing several penalties as well? For example, generals can gain traits that lower their loyalties over time increasing the chance of them rebelling. The personal security of your faction leader can be severely lowered making him an easier target for enemy assassins. And... if your faction leader dies, it could trigger several rebellions within your provinces and there's an x % chance that vassals declare themselves independent again/diplomatic standings get reset, at the least partially resetting your progress. You can also set a penalty decreasing your global standing every time the force_diplomacy command is triggered.

I've done a playthrough testing this concept and I think it certainly has potential. I've won my campaign in 145 turns. Obviously my playthrough was full of cheats (add_money, unlimited force_diplomacy usage and no implemented penalties). Nor is the map fully populated yet with rebels and castles etc. The result is the image below. The victory conditions were: control 100 regions, own some key provinces including Kyoto and Ishiyama Honganji/Osaka and eliminate Ikko-ikki.


If you have any thoughts on this, don't hesitate to post them.

[Darhan]

I really like the idea with force diplomaty for interesting gameplay. It would make a campaign interesting and not boring. Fulfill the condition of victory sometimes lacks patience. For a long time I play for the clan Oda.

[Gigantus]

force_diplomacy is dependent on the diplomatic window to be open and thus will only enforce the player's offers. At least that's what I am getting from the various discussions around the site, I might be wrong here.
A more functional approach might be to monitor ownership of Kyoto in combination with other conditions if desired (like existing stances between factions) and then use the set_stance command to assure desired levels of relations (war\neutral\allied) in combination with set_faction_standing to simulate a change in attitude as well (worsening\improving).
We used that approach in 1648 to simulate entries of factions into the war and it worked fairly well.

[Razor]

I really like the idea with force diplomaty for interesting gameplay. It would make a campaign interesting and not boring. Fulfill the condition of victory sometimes lacks patience. For a long time I play for the clan Oda.

It's certainly intended to prevent the endless grind which demands a lot of patience from the player.

force_diplomacy is dependent on the diplomatic window to be open and thus will only enforce the player's offers. At least that's what I am getting from the various discussions around the site, I might be wrong here.
A more functional approach might be to monitor ownership of Kyoto in combination with other conditions if desired (like existing stances between factions) and then use the set_stance command to assure desired levels of relations (war\neutral\allied) in combination with set_faction_standing to simulate a change in attitude as well (worsening\improving).
We used that approach in 1648 to simulate entries of factions into the war and it worked fairly well.

When it comes down to force_diplomacy I don't know. If it only enforces offers from the human player then it would be perfectly fine. There are ways to make the AI offer and accept becoming a vassal of another AI faction involving modding the campaign AI labels.

And indeed a combination of modding descr_faction_standing.txt and adding scripts setting the faction standing and diplomatic stance would be required to nudge factions towards war when one faction has conquered Kyoto or is becoming the dominant power.