Mercenaries

[Farwest]

What do you think about Mercenaries in Middle Earth and how they should be implemented, let's discuss here.

On the below, I am sharing my opinions about Mercenaries:

1) I think not all Mercenaries should be available to all factions, but good Mercenaries should be available to good Factions only, and evil ones are available to evil factions solely.

Beornings should be available to all good factions in lands of Beornings if a good faction settles there. In Ettenmoors and Trollshaws, any Evil army can hire Trolls.

2) My understanding of mercenary in Middle Earth is "aid" from that faction. Elven Archers can come to Helms Deep through recruitment of Loth Lorien units in the border.

Some faction units should be available to be hired by allied factions like we see in vanilla Attila gameplay. We know Mordor army consists of Rhun, Harad, Variag forces too in addition to native orcs. Mordor of course doesn't train them, but these forces can be recruited as mercenaries in lands on the border provinces of Rhun and Harad only too.

Same can apply to all good factions, for example Dwarves can hire basic Dale Cavalry in Erebor, Dale can hire basic Dwarven Axemen in Lake-Town. Rohan can hire some Gondor soldiers in some border cities. Gondor does the same. But this kind of troop recruitment should be limited to some Tier 1 and Tier 2 units not elite Tier 3. Rohan mercenary for Gondor can be only 1-2 types of horsemen only, to supply the need of cavalry, Gondor mercenary can be just basic Spearmen or Infantry for Rohan (if Elves take over Rohan lands in late game, Elves hire these soldiers in game mechanics). Elven factions can give Archer units to good factions as mercenaries in borders, Dunland gives a few Dunland infantry or cavalry to Isengard or Orcs of Misty Mountains and such.

So Mordor can find Harad soldiers close to Harad border, but finds Rhun soldiers close to Rhun border. This increases variety to the current faction rosters and adds more spice I think.

3) If Gondor takes a Rohan city from an Evil faction, Gondor should be able to recruit some specific Rohan units in that city also, but when Gondor wants to recruit Gondor soldiers, Gondor finds Gondor soldiers in that city as well along with Rohan. Same applies to Rohan for Gondor soldiers, same applies to all good factions and evil factions among each other. Let's say when Arnor/Eriador captures Imladris from orcs of Misty Mountain, Arnor/Eriador should be able to recruit some elven units from Imladris rest of the game by holding that city. This is for good factions between each other and evil factions among each other.

For Mordor and Isengard, it can be a little different:
When Mordor captures Isengard in mid-late game, even though Isengard was neutral before or even enemy to Mordor (rival evil), Mordor should be able to recruit some units of Isengard there as well, such as Wargs, some faction specific Trolls of Isengard, or Isengard Uruks because they now will start to obey Mordor's power now.

Bottom line is, player can get more variety where to expand, where to get neighbourhood with which allies, these all of course should be implemented with lore limitations always.
In summary rule never changes: evil factions recruit evil, good factions recruit good according to:
1) based on provinces (trollshaws, ettenmoors, carrock, beorning lands, Rhudaur, Rhovanion, Mirkwood Elves or Spiders/Olog Hai for good and evil etc.),
2) allies (containing border neighbourhood with any allies)
3) through support of captured locations' inhabitants. (Capturing Imladris gives future Elven troops to good factions, Edoras or any core Rohan city to Gondor or others, Minas Morgul to Harad etc.)

[Mr.Jox]

Mercenaries definitely will take place in our mod though we not yet sure about them. The reason for that - we have not started any campaign development yet.
But I see some props of discussing this right now right here.

[Alkar]

What do you think about Mercenaries in Middle Earth and how they should be implemented, let's discuss here.

On the below, I am sharing my opinions about Mercenaries:

1) I think not all Mercenaries should be available to all factions, but good Mercenaries should be available to good Factions only, and evil ones are available to evil factions solely.

Beornings should be available to all good factions in lands of Beornings if a good faction settles there. In Ettenmoors and Trollshaws, any Evil army can hire Trolls.

2) My understanding of mercenary in Middle Earth is "aid" from that faction. Elven Archers can come to Helms Deep through recruitment of Loth Lorien units in the border.

Some faction units should be available to be hired by allied factions like we see in vanilla Attila gameplay. We know Mordor army consists of Rhun, Harad, Variag forces too in addition to native orcs. Mordor of course doesn't train them, but these forces can be recruited as mercenaries in lands on the border provinces of Rhun and Harad only too.

Same can apply to all good factions, for example Dwarves can hire basic Dale Cavalry in Erebor, Dale can hire basic Dwarven Axemen in Lake-Town. Rohan can hire some Gondor soldiers in some border cities. Gondor does the same. But this kind of troop recruitment should be limited to some Tier 1 and Tier 2 units not elite Tier 3. Rohan mercenary for Gondor can be only 1-2 types of horsemen only, to supply the need of cavalry, Gondor mercenary can be just basic Spearmen or Infantry for Rohan (if Elves take over Rohan lands in late game, Elves hire these soldiers in game mechanics). Elven factions can give Archer units to good factions as mercenaries in borders, Dunland gives a few Dunland infantry or cavalry to Isengard or Orcs of Misty Mountains and such.

So Mordor can find Harad soldiers close to Harad border, but finds Rhun soldiers close to Rhun border. This increases variety to the current faction rosters and adds more spice I think.

3) If Gondor takes a Rohan city from an Evil faction, Gondor should be able to recruit some specific Rohan units in that city also, but when Gondor wants to recruit Gondor soldiers, Gondor finds Gondor soldiers in that city as well along with Rohan. Same applies to Rohan for Gondor soldiers, same applies to all good factions and evil factions among each other. Let's say when Arnor/Eriador captures Imladris from orcs of Misty Mountain, Arnor/Eriador should be able to recruit some elven units from Imladris rest of the game by holding that city. This is for good factions between each other and evil factions among each other.

For Mordor and Isengard, it can be a little different:
When Mordor captures Isengard in mid-late game, even though Isengard was neutral before or even enemy to Mordor (rival evil), Mordor should be able to recruit some units of Isengard there as well, such as Wargs, some faction specific Trolls of Isengard, or Isengard Uruks because they now will start to obey Mordor's power now.

Bottom line is, player can get more variety where to expand, where to get neighbourhood with which allies, these all of course should be implemented with lore limitations always.
In summary rule never changes: evil factions recruit evil, good factions recruit good according to:
1) based on provinces (trollshaws, ettenmoors, carrock, beorning lands, Rhudaur, Rhovanion, Mirkwood Elves or Spiders/Olog Hai for good and evil etc.),
2) allies (containing border neighbourhood with any allies)
3) through support of captured locations' inhabitants. (Capturing Imladris gives future Elven troops to good factions, Edoras or any core Rohan city to Gondor or others, Minas Morgul to Harad etc.)

Sounds very nice. I'm not sure that Isengard has trolls in the mod though.

[dfool06]

All make sense. May I add that mercs should cost more in recruitment and upkeep since they are not really part of the core army of a faction but rather only act as supplementary forces and emergency bolstering force.

We should also consider other factors in recruiting mercs like, allegiances and culture. Maybe we can have something like this as a format;
Neutral settlements or region = regular factionless mercs
Vassal or ally region or settlement = 1 tier 1 basic unit from ally faction.
Ally region with high culture = 1 or 2 tier 2 units of that ally faction.
recaptured or conquered city or region = nuetral factionless mercs until cuture becomes high enough to get native mercs of that region

[Farwest]

Harad didn't conquer Gondor in history of Middle Earth, but the player of Harad will conquer Gondor surely, so are we planning to restrict Harad to not recruit any Troll mercenaries near Mordor? or even near mountains of Gondor (because those mountains or vicinity will be empty from Gondor patrols since its collapse)?
Or when player chooses Isengard faction to play, and Isengard conquers Harad (or become neighbour); should we restrict them to not recruit Mumakils? Why? So I think there should be Role Playing aspect in the game and we must assume that "Saruman the Wise persuaded beast masters of Harad to recruit Mumakil forces into his army too, but as mercenaries".

Thus, I am expecting Isengard to contain some Troll units not even as mercenaries, but as vanilla units, because Saruman was a Maia like Sauron and he "knows" the ways to persuade orcs, wargs but why not trolls? Trolls are in the vicinity and they are not dimwit creatures like we saw in PJ's movies, trolls have a language and they are able to talk in Tolkien's books too. I didn't check if Isengard has trolls or not from the books when I wrote above letters, but it always sounded logical to me if Isengard can recruit them as vanilla units, because Misty Mountains are just lying on the very north of Orthanc. If not for vanilla units, but at least containing them as mercenary units is a must.

I am usually against Tier 3 mercenary recruitment, but for special units like Mumakils, Trolls, Ents (Ents without any unit replenishment) there can be some presence of these units according to which faction stands for what (good or evil). Evil needs to attract evil, Good attracts Good for the common goal of Middle Earth, for survival or for domination or service.

[Alkar]

Harad didn't conquer Gondor in history of Middle Earth, but the player of Harad will conquer Gondor surely, so are we planning to restrict Harad to not recruit any Troll mercenaries near Mordor? or even near mountains of Gondor (because those mountains or vicinity will be empty from Gondor patrols since its collapse)?
Or when player chooses Isengard faction to play, and Isengard conquers Harad (or become neighbour); should we restrict them to not recruit Mumakils? Why? So I think there should be Role Playing aspect in the game and we must assume that "Saruman the Wise persuaded beast masters of Harad to recruit Mumakil forces into his army too, but as mercenaries".

Thus, I am expecting Isengard to contain some Troll units not even as mercenaries, but as vanilla units, because Saruman was a Maia like Sauron and he "knows" the ways to persuade orcs, wargs but why not trolls? Trolls are in the vicinity and they are not dimwit creatures like we saw in PJ's movies, trolls have a language and they are able to talk in Tolkien's books too. I didn't check if Isengard has trolls or not from the books when I wrote above letters, but it always sounded logical to me if Isengard can recruit them as vanilla units, because Misty Mountains are just lying on the very north of Orthanc. If not for vanilla units, but at least containing them as mercenary units is a must.

I am usually against Tier 3 mercenary recruitment, but for special units like Mumakils, Trolls, Ents (Ents without any unit replenishment) there can be some presence of these units according to which faction stands for what (good or evil). Evil needs to attract evil, Good attracts Good for the common goal of Middle Earth, for survival or for domination or service.

It's not persuading them to join his side, Sauron sends forth his spirit that stirs all evil and compels it to follow him, the prime incarnation of evil in the world. This power can only grow from its weakened state at the second downfall of Sauron, and would become way out of proportion if he was to ever possess the Great Ring again. Saruman is quite pitiful in comparison with Sauron. Plus Isengard is never mentioned as having trolls, for the above reasons. It really depends on your definition of the role of mercenaries when looking at what should recruit what. You defined mercenaries as units of another faction that have signed on to "help" another faction that currently occupies the natural habitat of the mercenary units. Now if Gondor conquers Rohan for example I would think that Rohirrim would hate their guts and never, ever help them. However a few may be intimidated to join the conquerors. Same thing goes for an evil faction conquering another. But if a nation is conquered by another nation and another nation takes back that territory and allies itself with the old inhabitants of the conquered territory, then most certainly native units would sign on to "help" the new conquering nations. The differences between an enemy conquered area with very few mercenaries agreeing to sign on and a friendly occupied area with many potential mercenaries incorporated into the mod I have no idea how to implement. Also, if it is a friendly occupied area, I would think that the friendly occupied nation would give the occupied lands back to the native population once the enemies are kicked out - if not, they would rebel. Also, no idea if possible. There is another aspect of mercenaries as well. Friendly troops near your empire's borders may decide to join your war effort, through persuasion or intimidation, or allies may choose to hire off or send over troops from far away. The elements of this should be decided with lore and a bit of common sense. For example, Harad would probably laugh at Orcs of the Misty Mountains seeking Mumakil in their army, especially since Mumakil are totally useless unless they are in open, flat spaces. The men of Dale would probably be glad to send over a few mercenaries to their mostly friendly neighbors, the Dwarves. Of course, in situations where friendlies in either sovereign or occupied areas would not simply sell units away, at least if they are on the side of good and probably not in the bad ones as well in most cases. The borrowed troops would have to have their provisions paid for. Maybe it would be possible to add a turn limit to mercenaries, that would be incredibly realistic, especially for more elite ones. I don't know how all these nuances and things could be incorporated, however. Please excuse my writing, it is mostly thinking out loud and may not flow correctly.

[Farwest]

You defined mercenaries as units of another faction that have signed on to "help" another faction that currently occupies the natural habitat of the mercenary units. Now if Gondor conquers Rohan for example I would think that Rohirrim would hate their guts and never, ever help them. However a few may be intimidated to join the conquerors.

I don't mean "if Gondor conquers Rohan, Rohan troops should be available to Gondor" No, of course not! If that ever happens, then not Rohan troops, but some troops that look like Rohan units without banners and symbols of Rohan (because those symbols are enemy to Gondor, how can they be recruited by Gondor?). For that case, additional Horsemen can be created with some different banner or symbols, and they can be recruited. This is not so necessary in my opinion, if such thing asked or desired (When Mordor player asks you to recruit Gondor soldier, after subjugation for instance), then it would need additional units (without white tree in Gondor's case, maybe it would be burned tree in this case ).

I mean, if Rohan loses a city to Mordor or Isengard, when Gondor captures it, Rohan population gives units for Gondor's recruitment as colloboration in that suggestion. Same applies to any Good-Evil factions between themselves.

It's not persuading them to join his side, Sauron sends forth his spirit that stirs all evil and compels it to follow him, the prime incarnation of evil in the world. This power can only grow from its weakened state at the second downfall of Sauron, and would become way out of proportion if he was to ever possess the Great Ring again. Saruman is quite pitiful in comparison with Sauron. Plus Isengard is never mentioned as having trolls, for the above reasons. It really depends on your definition of the role of mercenaries when looking at what should recruit what.

I gave answer to you this on Troll topic I think. Saruman is a Maia and knowledgable enough to attract orcs and wargs, by his own dark arts or just persuasion, it is not given explicitly in books if I remember right, left ambiguous. Sauron asks to Saruman to assemble the army via Palantir, but Sauron doesn't assemble that army by himself but via Saruman's persuasion of ork troops either by dark arts or just speech. Saruman thought to be rival power to Sauron too if he could eradicate Rohan in Helms Deep, he failed. Trolls are not seen among the troops of Saruman yet, unless Saruman increases in power even further; thus it is possible for Saruman to recruit them as well in my opinion on this base.

Friendly troops near your empire's borders may decide to join your war effort, through persuasion or intimidation, or allies may choose to hire off or send over troops from far away. The elements of this should be decided with lore and a bit of common sense. For example, Harad would probably laugh at Orcs of the Misty Mountains seeking Mumakil in their army, especially since Mumakil are totally useless unless they are in open, flat spaces. The men of Dale would probably be glad to send over a few mercenaries to their mostly friendly neighbors, the Dwarves. Of course, in situations where friendlies in either sovereign or occupied areas would not simply sell units away, at least if they are on the side of good and probably not in the bad ones as well in most cases. The borrowed troops would have to have their provisions paid for. Maybe it would be possible to add a turn limit to mercenaries, that would be incredibly realistic, especially for more elite ones. I don't know how all these nuances and things could be incorporated, however. Please excuse my writing, it is mostly thinking out loud and may not flow correctly.

I don't like the idea of borrowing units. If you think you can handle the script work, no worries for me, but I believe that is increasing the memory usage even further with additional lines of coding in the memory after each turn. If I am wrong, please correct my words. Borrowing units make things complicated. But mercenaries are also a type of aid, if their upkeep is too high, player would disband them next turn, so borrowing can work that way too.

After reading your comment about Mumakil, I think their recruitment should be limited to their own habitat. For example Mumakils should be available only in desert or Harad habitat. Let's assume if Misty Mountains Orcs conquered Gondor, from Harad border only they can recruit Mumakils. If Harad extends to snowy Misty Mountains, Misty Mountains shouldn't be able to recruit Mumakils there. Because they are exotic animals which their living would be limited to their own habitat. Even so, higher upkeep than usual should be necessary, if Misty Mountains Orcs plan to drive them in snowy areas after recruiting close to Harad (higher upkeep: using additional medicine to increase immunity system of Mumakils, thick blankets to sleep in snow etc. )

For faction mercenaries of human and orcs, upkeep of most units should stay same. For instance if Rohan army pays Rohan Riders 500 gold, Gondor army should pay 500 gold too when they have chance to recruit. But for Mumakils, or some special units which their habitat or culture provides them cheaper rations or equipment, the upkeep can be higher for those units because their supply needs would be higher by logistics too. This applies to Elven and Dwarven units especially, let's say the Bow string of an Elven Archer is broken. That Elven archer won't be liking to use Human Bow Strings, but prefer Elven ones for his Elven Bow. Supplying such needs would increase the cost of employer faction. 15% additional upkeep would be fair I think (for transportation).

[Alkar]

I don't mean "if Gondor conquers Rohan, Rohan troops should be available to Gondor" No, of course not! If that ever happens, then not Rohan troops, but some troops that look like Rohan units without banners and symbols of Rohan (because those symbols are enemy to Gondor, how can they be recruited by Gondor?). For that case, additional Horsemen can be created with some different banner or symbols, and they can be recruited. This is not so necessary in my opinion, if such thing asked or desired (When Mordor player asks you to recruit Gondor soldier, after subjugation for instance), then it would need additional units (without white tree in Gondor's case, maybe it would be burned tree in this case ).

I mean, if Rohan loses a city to Mordor or Isengard, when Gondor captures it, Rohan population gives units for Gondor's recruitment as colloboration in that suggestion. Same applies to any Good-Evil factions between themselves.



I gave answer to you this on Troll topic I think. Saruman is a Maia and knowledgable enough to attract orcs and wargs, by his own dark arts or just persuasion, it is not given explicitly in books if I remember right, left ambiguous. Sauron asks to Saruman to assemble the army via Palantir, but Sauron doesn't assemble that army by himself but via Saruman's persuasion of ork troops either by dark arts or just speech. Saruman thought to be rival power to Sauron too if he could eradicate Rohan in Helms Deep, he failed. Trolls are not seen among the troops of Saruman yet, unless Saruman increases in power even further; thus it is possible for Saruman to recruit them as well in my opinion on this base.



I don't like the idea of borrowing units. If you think you can handle the script work, no worries for me, but I believe that is increasing the memory usage even further with additional lines of coding in the memory after each turn. If I am wrong, please correct my words. Borrowing units make things complicated. But mercenaries are also a type of aid, if their upkeep is too high, player would disband them next turn, so borrowing can work that way too.

After reading your comment about Mumakil, I think their recruitment should be limited to their own habitat. For example Mumakils should be available only in desert or Harad habitat. Let's assume if Misty Mountains Orcs conquered Gondor, from Harad border only they can recruit Mumakils. If Harad extends to snowy Misty Mountains, Misty Mountains shouldn't be able to recruit Mumakils there. Because they are exotic animals which their living would be limited to their own habitat. Even so, higher upkeep than usual should be necessary, if Misty Mountains Orcs plan to drive them in snowy areas after recruiting close to Harad (higher upkeep: using additional medicine to increase immunity system of Mumakils, thick blankets to sleep in snow etc. )

For faction mercenaries of human and orcs, upkeep of most units should stay same. For instance if Rohan army pays Rohan Riders 500 gold, Gondor army should pay 500 gold too when they have chance to recruit. But for Mumakils, or some special units which their habitat or culture provides them cheaper rations or equipment, the upkeep can be higher for those units because their supply needs would be higher by logistics too. This applies to Elven and Dwarven units especially, let's say the Bow string of an Elven Archer is broken. That Elven archer won't be liking to use Human Bow Strings, but prefer Elven ones for his Elven Bow. Supplying such needs would increase the cost of employer faction. 15% additional upkeep would be fair I think (for transportation).

I would allow Saruman to recruit trolls only if he possesses the One Ring.

[Farwest]

I don't agree. Ring has power indeed, but its power, capabilities and its limits are not described clearly in the books or in anywhere.

Secondly, Sauron already fills his armies with trolls without the aid of ring. How Saruman recruits wargs and orcs to his army? You are limiting the presence of trolls to only "One Ring".

My perspective is, wherever there are ork chieftains, they always can be recruited and persuaded (more meat, let's raid). Your perspective is restricting trolls to Mordor only. So that decision leads Misty Mountain and Gundabad Orcs to contain even more plain faction rosters, which makes the mod emptier unnecessarily.

I gave you many reasons from : Lore, Logic, Movies. Now clearly I don't understand you.

[♔atthias♔]

I don't agree. Ring has power indeed, but its power, capabilities and its limits are not described clearly in the books or in anywhere.

Secondly, Sauron already fills his armies with trolls without the aid of ring. How Saruman recruits wargs and orcs to his army? You are limiting the presence of trolls to only "One Ring".

My perspective is, wherever there are ork chieftains, they always can be recruited and persuaded (more meat, let's raid). Your perspective is restricting trolls to Mordor only. So that decision leads Misty Mountain and Gundabad Orcs to contain even more plain faction rosters, which makes the mod emptier unnecessarily.

I gave you many reasons from : Lore, Logic, Movies. Now clearly I don't understand you.

that maybe so due the fact that other people different opinions as is my opinion I am against trolls for isengard be it as mercenary of core unit
if they come in then for me only after saruman has the one ring
you or somebody can made a submod if the team does not agree whit you
sorry if this feels offending not my intention
and lastly I would like to thank you for bringing up this point +rep

[Farwest]

There is nothing offending here, we are all talking about aspects of the mod by different perspectives with different motives, that's all.

And this is not my mod, if I would have necessary skills (I don't know modding Attila or RTW2, but I know MTW2 and RTW1) and time of course I could think to create my own mod or submod. But for little disagreements, creating a mod from scratch doesn't sound good than developing a current one to a better place.

As we all have a free speech here, we will write, discuss, put ideas. The developer team here will agree what to adopt, what is not suitable and such. Thanks for the rep, I appreciate it, cheers

[Commissar Caligula_]

Imo, going off nothing but my own thoughts (I've never read the books ).
If Saruman were ever to get trolls, I think they'd have to be hybrids, since Saruman is all about using his knowledge to improve and combine aspects of different races in order to create a much more effective soldier.
So if he gets the One Ring, I figure he should be able to recruit a hybrid of Olog-Hai and something else (I think one of the TATW submods did this) thats stronger than normal trolls/Olog-Hai. Therefore he CAN get trolls, but its fairly hard to do, but worth it.

Also, Farwest if you need help with modding I'll try and give ya tips, so long as its only database stuff. I can't do 2D art/3D modelling/scripting.

[Alkar]

I don't agree. Ring has power indeed, but its power, capabilities and its limits are not described clearly in the books or in anywhere.

Secondly, Sauron already fills his armies with trolls without the aid of ring. How Saruman recruits wargs and orcs to his army? You are limiting the presence of trolls to only "One Ring".

My perspective is, wherever there are ork chieftains, they always can be recruited and persuaded (more meat, let's raid). Your perspective is restricting trolls to Mordor only. So that decision leads Misty Mountain and Gundabad Orcs to contain even more plain faction rosters, which makes the mod emptier unnecessarily.

I gave you many reasons from : Lore, Logic, Movies. Now clearly I don't understand you.

Oh my you are frustrating. Those are not independent "factions", they are groups of forces under Sauron's dominion. Sauron is a great spirit, a god on Earth, and the official successor of Melkor.

Edit: I mentioned in another thread that it could be interesting (but not accurate) to allow Saruman to dominate trolls to a small extent very far into the game with increased knowledge (tech). Otherwise, he would need the Great Ring or some other Ring perhaps (maybe one he makes himself). Now what would actually add spice to the game is to allow Saruman to perhaps craft better and better Rings of Power as the game goes on (he crafted a rudimentary one in the books), in perhaps a rare event or a quest to find hidden knowledge. Now that would be awesome.

[Farwest]

Also, Farwest if you need help with modding I'll try and give ya tips, so long as its only database stuff. I can't do 2D art/3D modelling/scripting.

Thank you VxBoredxV, you are very kind. I also enjoy to do mainly database stuff. When you make modding somewhere and need a second hand, let me know, I can give you additional help and learn from you too.

I don't agree. Ring has power indeed, but its power, capabilities and its limits are not described clearly in the books or in anywhere.

Secondly, Sauron already fills his armies with trolls without the aid of ring. How Saruman recruits wargs and orcs to his army? You are limiting the presence of trolls to only "One Ring".

My perspective is, wherever there are ork chieftains, they always can be recruited and persuaded (more meat, let's raid). Your perspective is restricting trolls to Mordor only. So that decision leads Misty Mountain and Gundabad Orcs to contain even more plain faction rosters, which makes the mod emptier unnecessarily.

I gave you many reasons from : Lore, Logic, Movies. Now clearly I don't understand you.

Oh my you are frustrating. Those are not independent "factions", they are groups of forces under Sauron's dominion. Sauron is a great spirit, a god on Earth, and the official successor of Melkor.

Edit: I mentioned in another thread that it could be interesting (but not accurate) to allow Saruman to dominate trolls to a small extent very far into the game with increased knowledge (tech). Otherwise, he would need the Great Ring or some other Ring perhaps (maybe one he makes himself). Now what would actually add spice to the game is to allow Saruman to perhaps craft better and better Rings of Power as the game goes on (he crafted a rudimentary one in the books), in perhaps a rare event or a quest to find hidden knowledge. Now that would be awesome.

How do you explain Sauron's power when Goblins and Orcs of Misty Mountains and Gundabad march against Erebor? There is 78 years between Battle of Five Armies and events of Fellowship of the Ring? Orodruin awakens 13 years later after Battle of Five Armies and 3 years later Sauron reveals himself and starts building Barad Dur.

Sauron is not dominating those factions at that time, only from Dol Guldur as "Necromancer" and his power is not enough to reach outside of Mirkwood, but giving distress to Woodland Elves and area.
But orcs and goblins attack to Erebor with different motives, for the richness of the mountain because Smaug is dead and to defeat Thorin and dwarves for previous hostility.

These factions seem to be independently managing themselves until that time (but only the Necromancer/Sauron would be giving the strategy by messengers at least), that's why Sauron starts to gather his armies by himself when he is powerful enough when he settles in Barad-dur.
Misty Mountains and Gundabad orcs are just Ork groups settled in their mountain areas. Sauron doesn't feed them, train them, bring recruits for their armies. They do all by their own. After Sauron comes in power again, many of them comes to Mordor and come together.

[Dude with the Food]

I don't agree. Ring has power indeed, but its power, capabilities and its limits are not described clearly in the books or in anywhere.

Secondly, Sauron already fills his armies with trolls without the aid of ring. How Saruman recruits wargs and orcs to his army? You are limiting the presence of trolls to only "One Ring".

My perspective is, wherever there are ork chieftains, they always can be recruited and persuaded (more meat, let's raid). Your perspective is restricting trolls to Mordor only. So that decision leads Misty Mountain and Gundabad Orcs to contain even more plain faction rosters, which makes the mod emptier unnecessarily.

I gave you many reasons from : Lore, Logic, Movies. Now clearly I don't understand you.

This is a part of my post in the trolls thread but I think it's relevant here.

I think that there needs to a distinction between different types of evil to avoid misunderstanding. Imagine if Galadriel had taken the ring and become a dark queen. She'd have been undoubtedly evil but that doesn't necessarily mean she'd have controlled armies of evil (as in influenced by Melkor). Her society would have probably become something similar to a police state with Elves at the top level and everything else beneath them. Considering the ingrained hatred of true servants of Melkor (orcs/trolls/wolves) for Elves, they'd be in constant warfare even with her, even without Sauron and even if they weren't, she's seen enough warfare with them in her life that they'd be ruthlessly persecuted anyway.

Saruman is a similar case. He didn't see the warfare of the first or second ages (or at least skipped most of it) so he's more open to using Melkor's creations than Galadriel ever could be but his problem is they aren't necessarily of the same opinion - especially the wilder ones like trolls. He is persuasive enough that orcs will fight for him and wolves were always the least evil of Melkor's 'creations'. Trolls are much less open to being controlled but if Saruman received the ring he'd more than powerful enough to control them. Whether or not he'd want to devote resources to such destructive creatures of questionable loyalty before then is something for the mod team to decide but I'm of the inclination he wouldn't bother.



About mercenaries I think they should be limited mainly to humans and orcs as elves and dwarves would be too proud to fight for other factions. In terms of 'borrowing' units there is the levy mechanic in-game where you can recruit a faction's units if they are your vassal. It would be interesting to see if that could be modded to include all types of alliances rather than just for vassals. After all, it wouldn't make much sense for Dale cavalry to serve Dwarves if Dale itself doesn't have the ability to recruit cavalry for themselves.

[Farwest]

Saruman is a similar case. He didn't see the warfare of the first or second ages (or at least skipped most of it) so he's more open to using Melkor's creations than Galadriel ever could be but his problem is they aren't necessarily of the same opinion - especially the wilder ones like trolls. He is persuasive enough that orcs will fight for him and wolves were always the least evil of Melkor's 'creations'. Trolls are much less open to being controlled but if Saruman received the ring he'd more than powerful enough to control them. Whether or not he'd want to devote resources to such destructive creatures of questionable loyalty before then is something for the mod team to decide but I'm of the inclination he wouldn't bother.

I think everybody is putting so much power to the One Ring. We all saw in the books and movies that, Sauron and Saruman collected their such vast armies without the aid of ring. And nobody knows how powerful they ever would become, that answer is not given in the books and movies too. We can think by ourselves, I agree.

But I really wonder the answer of "how Sauron and Saruman collected such vast armies including many different units without the aid of ring?" from all of you guys.

About mercenaries I think they should be limited mainly to humans and orcs as elves and dwarves would be too proud to fight for other factions. In terms of 'borrowing' units there is the levy mechanic in-game where you can recruit a faction's units if they are your vassal. It would be interesting to see if that could be modded to include all types of alliances rather than just for vassals. After all, it wouldn't make much sense for Dale cavalry to serve Dwarves if Dale itself doesn't have the ability to recruit cavalry for themselves.

At my suggestion about dwarves and elves, I think I already mentioned them "they are aid" from those factions, instead of mere mercenaries at the top message?

Yes, the use of levy mechanic of Attila can bring a nice spice to the mod. TATW had many limitations by depending on MTW2, but RoM here has many great options to use the full potential for a better level too.

[Dude with the Food]

I think everybody is putting so much power to the One Ring. We all saw in the books and movies that, Sauron and Saruman collected their such vast armies without the aid of ring. And nobody knows how powerful they ever would become, that answer is not given in the books and movies too. We can think by ourselves, I agree.

But I really wonder the answer of "how Sauron and Saruman collected such vast armies including many different units without the aid of ring?" from all of you guys.

There's a reason everybody was after the One Ring and it's because it really is that powerful. Sauron without the ring is able to vast legions of orcs and call on alliances he's worked over thousands of years for. With the ring he is supremely powerful in Middle Earth and it's doubtful whether even a united alliance of all free peoples could oppose him on anywhere remotely near equal footing. Saruman can build a large army quickly due to his own powers but ultimately, that army isn't enough to beat Rohan. With the ring, he'd be a match for Sauron himself.

At my suggestion about dwarves and elves, I think I already mentioned them "they are aid" from those factions, instead of mere mercenaries at the top message?

Yes, the use of levy mechanic of Attila can bring a nice spice to the mod. TATW had many limitations by depending on MTW2, but RoM here has many great options to use the full potential for a better level too.

I understand that Elves/Dwarves would represent aid but there isn't really a precedent for this outside specific individuals (Beleg in the Silmarillion and Elladan/Elrohir). In terms of modding, I don't think it's possible to allow mercenaries due to specific diplomatic relations or it may not be worth the effort unless the levying mechanic can be used which isn't the same thing as mercenaries anyway.

[Alkar]

Thank you VxBoredxV, you are very kind. I also enjoy to do mainly database stuff. When you make modding somewhere and need a second hand, let me know, I can give you additional help and learn from you too.



How do you explain Sauron's power when Goblins and Orcs of Misty Mountains and Gundabad march against Erebor? There is 78 years between Battle of Five Armies and events of Fellowship of the Ring? Orodruin awakens 13 years later after Battle of Five Armies and 3 years later Sauron reveals himself and starts building Barad Dur.

Sauron is not dominating those factions at that time, only from Dol Guldur as "Necromancer" and his power is not enough to reach outside of Mirkwood, but giving distress to Woodland Elves and area.
But orcs and goblins attack to Erebor with different motives, for the richness of the mountain because Smaug is dead and to defeat Thorin and dwarves for previous hostility.

These factions seem to be independently managing themselves until that time (but only the Necromancer/Sauron would be giving the strategy by messengers at least), that's why Sauron starts to gather his armies by himself when he is powerful enough when he settles in Barad-dur.
Misty Mountains and Gundabad orcs are just Ork groups settled in their mountain areas. Sauron doesn't feed them, train them, bring recruits for their armies. They do all by their own. After Sauron comes in power again, many of them comes to Mordor and come together.

Sauron has power over them during the War of the Ring ...

This is a part of my post in the trolls thread but I think it's relevant here.



Saruman is a similar case. He didn't see the warfare of the first or second ages (or at least skipped most of it) so he's more open to using Melkor's creations than Galadriel ever could be but his problem is they aren't necessarily of the same opinion - especially the wilder ones like trolls. He is persuasive enough that orcs will fight for him and wolves were always the least evil of Melkor's 'creations'. Trolls are much less open to being controlled but if Saruman received the ring he'd more than powerful enough to control them. Whether or not he'd want to devote resources to such destructive creatures of questionable loyalty before then is something for the mod team to decide but I'm of the inclination he wouldn't bother.



About mercenaries I think they should be limited mainly to humans and orcs as elves and dwarves would be too proud to fight for other factions. In terms of 'borrowing' units there is the levy mechanic in-game where you can recruit a faction's units if they are your vassal. It would be interesting to see if that could be modded to include all types of alliances rather than just for vassals. After all, it wouldn't make much sense for Dale cavalry to serve Dwarves if Dale itself doesn't have the ability to recruit cavalry for themselves.

Yep sounds like a nice addition.

[Farwest]

Sauron has power over them during the War of the Ring ...

That doesn't answer anything.

There's a reason everybody was after the One Ring and it's because it really is that powerful. Sauron without the ring is able to vast legions of orcs and call on alliances he's worked over thousands of years for. With the ring he is supremely powerful in Middle Earth and it's doubtful whether even a united alliance of all free peoples could oppose him on anywhere remotely near equal footing. Saruman can build a large army quickly due to his own powers but ultimately, that army isn't enough to beat Rohan. With the ring, he'd be a match for Sauron himself.

Yes, but still you didn't answer how Sauron or Saruman were capable of collecting such vast armies and legions without the aid of ring?

What I say is, if Saruman has an art/persuasion/power (or anything you name it) to collect such evil legions, why we are surprised if he can call trolls to his army too? If Peter Jackson decided to put them, then we wouldn't speak all these probably?
Even I saw resistance about presence of trolls in armies of Misty Mountain and Gundabad here, then when we have movie Hobbit example, then we come to the start again "one ring is necessary"

So I really don't understand many people here. I am not talking to you only Dude, don't understand me wrong, but I am not satisfied with the community here who seem to be deciding on many core facts.

I understand that Elves/Dwarves would represent aid but there isn't really a precedent for this outside specific individuals (Beleg in the Silmarillion and Elladan/Elrohir). In terms of modding, I don't think it's possible to allow mercenaries due to specific diplomatic relations or it may not be worth the effort unless the levying mechanic can be used which isn't the same thing as mercenaries anyway.

"there isn't really a precedent"??? What about Helm's Deep, the aid sent by Loth Lorien? (Other examples: Minas Tirith as Rohan, Mirkwood with collaboration between Loth Lorien and Thranduil? Erebor: battle of five armies. Later, Dain dies in further skirmishes along with King Brand of Dale? Witchking of Angmar: Colloboration of forces between Rhudaur and Orcs against Elves and Dunedain etc.)

Thus there are many many precedents indeed.

About the aid sent by Loth Lorien in Helm's Deep, how they are supposed to help in Campaign, when player will witness dozens of scenes similar to Helm's Deep? When necessary, player should be able to recruit them near the border of Loth Lorien as mercenaries. I don't support the idea of teleportation of troops iike we see the army stacks in TATW, "just a small siege launches a big support from Elves, the army disbanded, 10 turns later a big Isengard army appears, no support from the elves."

Mercenaries can handle many things with an easier way, the unit pool can be arranged (or limited to certain amount of units when necessary), the upkeep can be fixed so the player can be forced to disband the units or keep them in army as auxiliary forces as an aid from certain factions too.

[Alkar]

That doesn't answer anything.


Yes, but still you didn't answer how Sauron or Saruman were capable of collecting such vast armies and legions without the aid of ring?

What I say is, if Saruman has an art/persuasion/power (or anything you name it) to collect such evil legions, why we are surprised if he can call trolls to his army too? If Peter Jackson decided to put them, then we wouldn't speak all these probably?
Even I saw resistance about presence of trolls in armies of Misty Mountain and Gundabad here, then when we have movie Hobbit example, then we come to the start again "one ring is necessary"

So I really don't understand many people here. I am not talking to you only Dude, don't understand me wrong, but I am not satisfied with the community here who seem to be deciding on many core facts.


"there isn't really a precedent"??? What about Helm's Deep, the aid sent by Loth Lorien? (Other examples: Minas Tirith as Rohan, Mirkwood with collaboration between Loth Lorien and Thranduil? Erebor: battle of five armies. Later, Dain dies in further skirmishes along with King Brand of Dale? Witchking of Angmar: Colloboration of forces between Rhudaur and Orcs against Elves and Dunedain etc.)

Thus there are many many precedents indeed.

About the aid sent by Loth Lorien in Helm's Deep, how they are supposed to help in Campaign, when player will witness dozens of scenes similar to Helm's Deep? When necessary, player should be able to recruit them near the border of Loth Lorien as mercenaries. I don't support the idea of teleportation of troops iike we see the army stacks in TATW, "just a small siege launches a big support from Elves, the army disbanded, 10 turns later a big Isengard army appears, no support from the elves."

Mercenaries can handle many things with an easier way, the unit pool can be arranged (or limited to certain amount of units when necessary), the upkeep can be fixed so the player can be forced to disband the units or keep them in army as auxiliary forces as an aid from certain factions too.

Think in terms of the lore and metaphysics, there you will find all you need.