Conquest: 1066 AD - Charlemagne Mod

[Linke]

Ok, here are a few wip German and West Slavic units. About the same resources as last time, a few more variantmeshes from my units for TW Karling, and also a few helmets from there that I never used in my units, wich means I'll have to ask formally to have them in the release.

[Jezza93]

Those look excellent.

[Three Eyed Crow]

keen.

KEEN.

[druzhina345]

Linke, re. your PM request, here are some images on plates that could be of Magyars:

Magyar? horseman on a silver dish from Muzhy, 9th - 10th centuries
Magyar? horseman on a ewer from Nagyszentmiklós, 9th - 10th centuries.
. Magyar Heavy Cavalryman in Armies of the Dark Ages 600-1066 by Ian Heath, based on the ewer from Nagyszentmiklós.
Dish with mounted archer from Berezovskii u., Tobol'sk province, c.10th century
Dish with mounted falconer from Utemil'skii, c.10th century

I don't have anything on 10-11th century Serbia.

Druzhina345
10th Century Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

[Linke]

Linke, re. your PM request, here are some images on plates that could be of Magyars:

Magyar? horseman on a silver dish from Muzhy, 9th - 10th centuries
Magyar? horseman on a ewer from Nagyszentmiklós, 9th - 10th centuries.
. Magyar Heavy Cavalryman in Armies of the Dark Ages 600-1066 by Ian Heath, based on the ewer from Nagyszentmiklós.
Dish with mounted archer from Berezovskii u., Tobol'sk province, c.10th century
Dish with mounted falconer from Utemil'skii, c.10th century

I don't have anything on 10-11th century Serbia.

Druzhina345
10th Century Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

Thanks alot!
For the Hungarian "Milites", I will have to do initially both German (as introduced by the earlier kings marriage to a german princess), and at least a little of that old equipment.
South slavs maybe can be found in byzantine sources, for example the Dukljan cavalry serving (I believe) general George Maniakis

[Caledharoch]

While clearly Charlemagne, since it is 1066, any chances of William the Conqueror showing up?

[Linke]

While clearly Charlemagne, since it is 1066, any chances of William the Conqueror showing up?

William the conquerer is basicly the mods main character, imagine Stannis Baratheon in long mail, as on bayeux.
Harold Godwinson also will have a historical look from bayeux, red moustache, medium hair. All ca 16 factions will have historical leaders, and if possible they will have a unique historical look.

By the way, this weekend, as I finish Italian, Hungarian and Croatian rosters all factions will have rosters, nevertheless not neccesarily big ones, nor late (if such will exist) units, but all rosters will be of a playable size. So then I'll be moving on to the startpos (last one failed a bit), get someone to make unit cards, combine everything, and hopefully release that as a beta in Mid-June or later.

[Athos187]

Hey are you going to create new unit cards?

[AnthoniusII]

Got it, it'll be Imperium Romanum.

That is a good choice of naming the Ottonian German Empire (the succesor of the East Frankish Empire). But only if you rename the "Byzantine" Empire as Roman Empire as well.
Why? Because that was realy what caused the diplomatic tentions back then.
For the record.
Germans must not look "norman" style. They had their individual one with more "casis" style helmets and armors closer to Roman (byzantine) ones.
Here. FliegerAD is a real historian expert in this matter.If you use his info and unit names do not forget to add him in yoru CREDITS list.

[Eldgrimr]

Of course the "Byzantine" Empire will be called the Roman Empire, but in Greek. Just wondering, what do you think would fit the most? "Basileia tōn Rhōmaiōn" or "Basileia Rhōmaiōn"? Both are used, but I'm not sure which one would fit the most in the era.

[LinusLinothorax]

Here. FliegerAD is a real historian expert in this matter.If you use his info and unit names do not forget to add him in yoru CREDITS list.

Why is he using face-covering coifs which only came to use during the late 12th century?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[AnthoniusII]

Because those coifs are NOT a 12 th century evolution.
In fact they were Avar/steppe influence that came to Germans from Romans (byzantines) too.
Such coifs also have been used in Italy in late 9th century by Romans , Lombards and Arabs.
The kite shield in the west is a complicated issue.
In fact the only flaw of our roster was that many "knights" should have round shields as well.
That is why we have a "loricati" version with round shileds only.
FliegerAD writes and publishes articles in MW magasine.
This is how your German knights should look like in your mod's timeframe.

[Linke]

I'll give them less Norman helmets, shure, but I don't have a perfect version of the helmet above, of the nearest Miles. I do have a similar one with leather neckpatch from a Norman or Briton scout at the bayeux tapestry. But I still have other variants of helmets as those on that ivory-roll.

[AnthoniusII]

Use more frequently the "spearical helmets" (casis) that you already use

I mean the light green the blue and the red ones, with/without metal rims.
Here TGC's version of them.

You can use a version with kite shields as "upgrade" version of them.

The upgrade version can have slightly defence and anti-infantry stats from the previus one thanks to the couch_lance attack version.

[LinusLinothorax]

Because those coifs are NOT a 12 th century evolution.
In fact they were Avar/steppe influence that came to Germans from Romans (byzantines) too.
Such coifs also have been used in Italy in late 9th century by Romans , Lombards and Arabs.

Then I would like to see a primary source proving that Germans made use of them.
Here a mid 11th century manuscript depicting royal bodyguards (Ecternach, Luxembourg):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[AnthoniusII]

Then I would like to see a primary source proving that Germans made use of them.
Here a mid 11th century manuscript depicting royal bodyguards (Ecternach, Luxembourg):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I apologise for my mistake... Sorry you are right.
We should make all "byzantine" troops without armors at all!
WHY? Because of this picture:


Why we missed that?
Have you eber thought that a Pallace Guard may not use his coif the way he would in battle?
Just a thought.

[LinusLinothorax]

I apologise for my mistake... Sorry you are right.
We should make all "byzantine" troops without armors at all!
WHY? Because of this picture:


Why we missed that?
Have you eber thought that a Pallace Guard may not use his coif the way he would in battle?
Just a thought.

The soldiers on my pic are obviously fully equipped and prepared for combat, as one can see on the fact that they all wear their armours, helmets (which btw have the very same coifs I have seen on numerous other 11th / early 12th century Central European manuscripts depicting battles), kite shields, spears and swords plus that they are depicted in duty by guarding the king in an audience.

Still waiting for the German source btw.

[AnthoniusII]

I guess you have a source that full face coifs did not exist in that period in Germany.
Can you post a link other than the picture?
If I have to chose between your opinion and FliegerAD's about it (that is a REAL historian and writes articles in REAL history magazines) allow me to prefer his opinion than yours.
Lets use your example picture.
What armor do you think they wear.
Chain hauberg or scale quirass? Any answer will have no proof. Imagine why...
EDIT: Its your mod anyway. The final desision will be yours.
What our team (TGC mod) had to offer is there. It up to you if you are going to use that knowlege or not.
End of discusion.
AnthoniusII

[LinusLinothorax]

I guess you have a source that full face coifs did not exist in that period in Germany.
Can you post a link other than the picture?

Indeed: http://manuscriptminiatures.com/sear...n=&manuscript=
Those are over 200 manuscripts from all over Central Europe, including Germany, France, England and Italy. As one can see, mouth-covering coifs appeared first in ca. 1100 on a French manuscript, but became more popular only from 1150 onward. Nose / face-covering coifs appear first in the last decades of the 12th century, as to be seen on these German manuscripts: http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4821/10242/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/3916/21737/

Now its your turn to show me 11th century sources proving German or even Central European soldiers in general wearing face-covering coifs.

EDIT: Its your mod anyway. The final desision will be yours.
What our team (TGC mod) had to offer is there. It up to you if you are going to use that knowlege or not.

I am not a teammember, so this is entirely about the historicity of your units.


Edit: Since you quit the discussion without beeing able to provide any source I have to assume that I was right the whole time.

[Lord Oakenthrone]

I cannot wait for this mod to be released!!!!