2013 Modding Awards

[.Mitch.]

I'd like to see a methodology implemented quite like Moddb.com and CA utilize. Which is both community and judge based.

For instance:
CA asked for nominations, CA pick the winners from the most popular nominations.
Moddb has a simple "favourite mod" award for everyone to vote on. Then they themselves award various categories, as well as editors choice. (See my sig for TGW's Moddb awards)

1) The community cannot be relied on to deal with final results quite frankly. It will be an uninformed and unrepresentative decision.
2) We cannot delegate to a comity because then as said there is no community aspect and may as well be decided behind closed doors.

I'd like to see either these awards abandoned and a new medium award added between Artifex and Opifex in stature, OR these awards must follow the above two rules, which will be no easy task to make happen and get right.

[PikeStance]

Elaborating on your idea Mitch, we can create an award given by Opifex winners (The Grand Master Modders Award or Opifex Award). This would be similar to the "Editors' Choice Award" on ModDB.
I actually suggested a medium level award last year.... see here.

[Shankbot de Bodemloze]

You should all have access to this forum: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?1678 - if you don't let me know; if you would like access to help out please post here.

However I would like the main discussion to remain here, but the forum is mainly for people who offered to help sort out a list of mods posted sorted out in 2013 - I think seeing what we are dealing with will be the best way to decide what to do. If people are willing to help out with sorting out the list just drop a line in that forum saying which game you would be happy to do, as soon as please so I know which ones I need to cover.

I think, as has been said, that an award for "Most Popular Mod", "Modder" and "New Mod" should be just that - for each game, and with that we could even give out a sort of 1st/2nd/3rd place medal type thing. However I also feel to make these awards meaningful to modders as well there needs to be something alongside this that focuses on more technical aspects of a mod rather than just its populairty. Think of it as running two awards side-by-side, the whole TWC voted popularity one for people's favourite mods which could be done in quite a fun way and seen as more of a thanks from the site rather than an award modders would want/aspire to get and then the other one is something more serious and looks at the aspects of a mod. Although as Aik (I think) said the latter could be accomplished by just looking around at mods and seeing if people deserve Artifex/Opifex and then proposing them like that, it doesn't have to be a site-wide thing and because people have looked and appreciated the mod it might be more meaningful.

Still I think there is agreement on having a popular contest for each game, and as QHH said we don't want to be stuck here deciding until 2016.

[danny X]

Surely the structure of the 2012 modding awards is still in place and can be copied?

[Bethencourt]

For 2012 there was a phase of self nomination, it was not enough as some people, even relevant ones, did not noticed about it, so an open nomination phase was created. The award team members checked the nominations matched the requisits of content being released in that year, the category of award the nomination was for, and I cannot remember if anything else. The votes and that was it. It was intended to créate some kind of technical committee, but it did not work like that. I prefer to keep it clean and let the public vote.

I agree with the idea of less categories but giving more chances to the modders to achieve some recognition by adding second and third position, with a tiny distinction or medal, but something. Or even créate a list of postions and publish it in first page or in a relevant place in the site. Like a hall of fame or something like. So this gives room to more people than just the eternal winner.

I think the hall of fame is something to be considered by the Administrators, so it keeps a history of the awards and more modders can be named there not just the first position ones without the need of new medals which seems to be the problem that stops any second and third position recognition proposal.

[Shankbot de Bodemloze]

As a sort of time-line is it too optimistic to hope to have everything sorted by the end of January?

[Aikanár]

In order to help this project time wise, the Modding Vault will help were we can, starting with creating lists of mods and updates to mods released in 2013. It's hard to say how far we may progress, but we'll keep you posted with our progress.

[Shankbot de Bodemloze]

Thanks Aik.

[Raritу]

For 2012 there was a phase of self nomination, it was not enough as some people, even relevant ones, did not noticed about it, so an open nomination phase was created. The award team members checked the nominations matched the requisits of content being released in that year, the category of award the nomination was for, and I cannot remember if anything else. The votes and that was it. It was intended to créate some kind of technical committee, but it did not work like that. I prefer to keep it clean and let the public vote.

Every modder and mod was required to nominate themselves. Indeed we had the open nomination phase to make sure less mods/modders are left behind, we (award team members) checked if the mods/modders that are nominated met the requirements, then we informed them about the award and asked them to nominate themselves/the mods via PMs and opening threads in their mod subforums.

It was all about self nomination. It worked quite well, in fact.

[Bethencourt]

Every modder and mod was required to nominate themselves. Indeed we had the open nomination phase to make sure less mods/modders are left behind, we (award team members) checked if the mods/modders that are nominated met the requirements, then we informed them about the award and asked them to nominate themselves/the mods via PMs and opening threads in their mod subforums.

It was all about self nomination. It worked quite well, in fact.

As they awards are being made with retardation it gets a bit confusing. I am talking about the last ones that Aradan took care of as Administrator. I think they took place in 2012 and were about 2011 modding.

If the same system was used in the next, 2012 modding awards, turn I guess that modders were aware of it so they selfnominated more efficiently, anyway I was nominated without me knowing about it for 2012 modding awards for best tutor category, I did not want to participate, so it seems there was the same logical process at some point.

[wangrin]

2012 Awards should have, as previous Modding Awards, been based on modders self-nominating theirs mods and/or themselves depending of modding categories.
But, because of very few answers, it was decided to switch to "open nomination".

2013 Awards nomination will be slightly different I think.
The first step should be to create a list of all mods, released or updated, during year 2013.
Then, I don't know what will be the process, if staff will contact modders or if mods listed will be checked and then nominated in theirs categories.

[m_1512]

Don't mean to interrupt the discussion, but the Rome II category is missing from the OP list.

[wangrin]

TWR3 release date was september 2013.
Only some mods were available before the end of the year.
It look like the decision is to "merge" them with TWR2 2014 Modding Awards.

It was suggested in post #19 and #20


If I remember, DeI was released about December 2013 or earlier.

• KLA's Imperial Romans skinpack : release date about mid-September 2013 ;
• KLA'S Spartan Units : release date about mid-September 2013 ;
• Playable Seleucid Faction : release date about early September 2013 (few days, if not hours after TWR2 release) ;
• Ars Gratia Artis : release date about late September 2013 ;
• Kaziel's Romans : release date about late september 2013 ;
• Seasonal Effects for Main Campaign : release date about mid-December 2013 ;
• etc.

So, finally, maybe is there a place for TWR2 mods.

[Shankbot de Bodemloze]

We could have like one category, I just don't want it to be like oh we have 5 different mods that each fit in 5 different categorises so they all get first place... sort of takes away the worthiness of the award. I haven't checked the R2 section but if there are some mods that people feel deserve awarding then we could have simply just one category of award for the game - although I personally am still in favour of just saving it for 2014.

Depends what people want.

[Finch]

i like the moddb idea that people can vote for their fav mods or like facebook where you can like a page or something like that.

[.Mitch.]

Save Rome2 for 2014. People would otherwise just be wondering "why can't I vote for Rome 2 mod X, Y and Z". Much neater to do everything at once for R2 in a 2014 awards.

[Shankbot de Bodemloze]

^agreed.

So by the end of today I should be able to post some solid numbers with regards to how many mods we are dealing with (with thanks to Aik, Kaiser Leonidas, PikeStance, Quintus Hortensius Hortalus and wangrin) and then the discussion on how to structure the awards can really take off.

[Shankbot de Bodemloze]

Okay, so some numbers for 2013:

Shogun 2 (categorised by Mod Threads sub-forums)
-6 hosted mods were updated/released
-9 compilations and overhauls were updated/released
-20 unit pack and stats were updated/released
-21 gameplay tweaks were updated/released
-28 audio and visuals were updated/released
-3 miscellaneous were updated/released

NTW (categorised by Mod Threads sub-forums)
-7 hosted mods were updated/released
-7 sub-mods for hosted mods were updated/released
-2 compilations and overhauls were updated/released
-9 unit pack and stats were updated/released
-4 gameplay tweaks were updated/released
-6 audio and visuals were updated/released
-1 miscellaneous were updated/released

ETW (categorised by Mod Threads sub-forums)
-5 hosted mods were updated/released
-9 sub-mods for hosted mods were updated/released
-11 compilations and overhauls were updated/released
-7 unit pack and stats were updated/released
-5 gameplay tweaks were updated/released
-10 audio and visuals were updated/released

M2TW
-6 hosted mods were updated/released
-76 () sub-mods for hosted mods were updated/released
-11 non-hosted ("minor") mods were updated/released

Rome
-figures incoming

So... how do people think we should split the categories for each game?

[TASS07]

Aight, offered my help where I can with the mod awards as I find them to be a nice institution and Shankbot asked me to put my ideas down. So here we go.

I think generally the whole thing, from a bit of an outsider's perspective, is going to the right direction. Going to quote wangrin and mitch there in a bit, but others have said the same pretty much. Last years award categories, that is safe to say at this point, were far to complicated to attract the common member and the majority of the people who download and play the mods in thousands (Arguably, some aren't even members really, much like me was for the past years). For them it is purely a popularity vote I'd agree (and that does not have to be a bad thing necessarily). The vote overview posted by wangrin gives a nice summary:

• TOTAL WAR: SHOGUN 2
  
  • [TWS2] All-Time Favourite : 113 voters
  • [TWS2] Favourite Modder : 51 voters
  • [TWS2] Favourite Scenario/Innovative Mod : 38 voters
  • [TWS2] Favourite Unit Pack : 37 voters
  • [TWS2] Favourite New Mod : 33 voters
  • [TWS2] Favourite Campaign AI : 29 voters
  • [TWS2] Favourite Land/Naval Combat Overhaul Mod : 28 voters
  • [TWS2] Favourite Miniature Mod : 25 voters
  • [TWS2] Favourite Historical\Lore Writer : 23 voters
  • [TWS2] Favourite Tutor : 21 voters
  • etc.
  
  
• EMPIRE: TOTAL WAR
  
  • [ETW] All-Time Favourite : 110 voters
  • [ETW] Favourite Modder : 41 voters
  • [ETW] Favourite Immersive Mod : 38 voters
  • [ETW] Favourite Land/Naval Combat Overhaul Mod : 35 voters
  • [ETW] Favourite 3D Artist : 26 voters
  • [ETW] Favourite Scenario/Innovative Mod : 25 voters
  • [ETW] Favourite DB Editor : 21 voters
  • [ETW] Favourite Miniature Mod : 20 voters
  • etc.
  
  
• MEDIEVAL 2: TOTAL WAR
  
  • [M2TW] All-Time Favourite : 324 voters
  • [M2TW] Favourite New Mod : 85
  • [M2TW] Favourite Mapper : 56 voters
  • [M2TW] Favourite 2D Art & Design : 51 voters
  • etc.
  
  

I'm going to argue a slightly different point than he did. But only slightly and it is all in the numbers he gives. Firstly the All-time favourite usually surpasses all other categories for a game added together. That is a strong indiciator what kind of categories are favoured. Readily understood and simple categories that let them think more about what option in the category they prefer rather than why and for what - or why that option even belongs to that category. The second most popular tend to be the favourite modder awards. These are also fairly simply to vote on, for the very same reasons. However here I'd argue to scrap that in the current form, it is a bit too much of the popularity contest on an individual level. Also personal categories should, in my opinion, not compete with collaborative efforts. When we look at the further specified categories we can possibly argue that the more technical they get, the less votes they attract. It is getting difficult here because the margin in votes decreases steadily. But it seems people would rather vote for their favourite scenario/unit pack etc. mod (easily understood still) than for their favourite "insert technical term here" mod. Atleast that is what I deduct. All in all I think there is a certain divergence between people voting for popularity and the awards also wanting to address certain extraordinary skills of more technical kind while at the same time there's the notion that popularity contests for mods are part of the whole success (and traffic) game to begin with, where personal popularity contests tend to be more problematic (and less helpful perhaps aswell in that light).

Mitch is I think presenting a feasible way out of it:

I'd like to see a methodology implemented quite like Moddb.com and CA utilize. Which is both community and judge based.

[...]

1) The community cannot be relied on to deal with final results quite frankly. It will be an uninformed and unrepresentative decision.
2) We cannot delegate to a comity because then as said there is no community aspect and may as well be decided behind closed doors.

I'd like to see either these awards abandoned and a new medium award added between Artifex and Opifex in stature, OR these awards must follow the above two rules, which will be no easy task to make happen and get right.

Although I am perhaps again going a slightly different direction from there. The way out of what I talked about above is to adopt a common methodology that differentiates between "favorite" awards and "technical" awards. The former are determined by public vote, the latter usually by a technically skilled or at least informed body of sorts. So I say first and foremost: Limit the the public votes to votes on popularity of projects. Let the public determine the most publicly renowned or recognised project of certain categories. At the same time make clear that they're only doing that and that this voting mode may or will fail to recognise niche projects or individual contributions and conclusively isn't meant to recognise those.

The recognistion of niche projects, individual contributions and special technical achievements I would do through vote among the "informed" audience, much like real life sports/industry branch etc. awards do it. In real life these are given out by a selection of journalists and insiders (in case of sports often coaches and players/athletes). Here something similar could be done by forming a body consistent of modders (perhaps opifex, past winners, project leaders or something along the line) and a second group that here is arguably harder to determine than saying "sport journalists". An option here could be those involved in the organisation of the awards that would NOT fall under the above modder approach (however few that could be). Also eligable options could be certain areas of site staff that obtain a broad knowledge of the site and what goes on through their work they do here. I am trying to represent a group made up of two different aspects here, not only modders, to give the voting body some diversity. It's the same that is done in RL. Now you can argue that such votes can turn into popularity votes aswell and I will not argue that (FIFA World Football/Soccer player for example). That is a matter that largely rests in the "instructions/goal of the awards" that you communicate to this smaller and perhaps more "professional" voting body - and on how serious they take these. An example contradiciting the one I gave there with the FIFA one could perhaps be the UEFA golden ball that existed before both were merged, that far more often recognised less know players.

Lastly I would also pick up the CA idea. I however don't find it suitable to be part of the main voting. Firstly it would rest very largely on their willingness to do that. Secondly, I wouldn't make the whole award depend on an "outside" entitity. Just for pratical reasons. I'd pretty much put them in their own award. "Special CA/developer's mention" or something like that. How you'd have a voting mode for that I am not sure, its more like a designation for a limited number of projects that they think deserve recognition from their angle. That can coincide with the above two public/non-public modes, but don't have to.

I'll try to put down breakdown/template of how I think these three modes could be realised alongside each other:

Public Favourite awards:

Game xyz
-Overall favourite mod of 2013
--Favourite hosted/major mod
--Favourite minor/game alteration mod
--Favourite sub-mod
--Anything I've not covered by this
Perhaps make it a rule that any mod that has won the overall award automatically forfeits any sub categories it would also win to the runner-up/next placed?

Non-Public awards:
Game xyz:-Most innovative feature (mod lvl)
-Best 2d and 3d art (mod lvl)
-Best History/Lore realisation (mod lvl)
-Best Tool
...
-"Editor's choice"/"Special mention" individual modder <--- Probably best avoid "best" here
--2d/3d artist
--Programmer
...
Again I'd argue if we'd have an overal individual modder one, he could automatically forfeit any specific awards?

CA/Developer's Choice awards:
Across all games:-Mod with the most innovative solution
Right now I cannot think of other angles that would be interesting to have from them, but I am sure there are some.

[Shankbot de Bodemloze]

Thanks for the post. I'm heading offline now so I've just given it a quick read, but I'll be sure to post my thoughts when I get the chance.