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Thread: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

  1. #1

    Default Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    Uhh, is there a way to get this mod without annoying "rebalance" attempts?

    I hate it how the pikemen got nerfed, now a heavy cavalry charge can break the formations.. While in reality horses would be way too scared to charge headon into 4 ranks of pikes. Only way these horsemen could break a pike formation would be if the pikemen started routing b4 the charge or didn't setup and brace themselves properly...

    European battlefields were dominated by pikemen and later musketeers after the Swiss revolutionized combat. There were special anti-pike units even...

    So why are pikemen so weak?

    This is just 1 example, I don't like the "rebalancing" in general.

    I only want "real recruitment" (I don't like to have so many elite units) but I can't find download link.

    PS. http://www.mtw2.nosaintshistory.com/...usketeers.html there is typo here. "32 missile attack".
    Last edited by Nikitn; July 14, 2010 at 06:46 AM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    Yes, thankyou for the history lesson, despite you being wrong about, well, everything. See this thread: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=371772

    Oh and by the time that musketeers reached the battlefield, the Swiss were already past their prime. The Swiss scorned firearms and paid for it.

    Back to school for you. If you don't like the re-balancing, you are welcome to go back to vanilla. Imagine my concern. Bye!
    Last edited by Point Blank; July 14, 2010 at 07:04 AM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    It was impossible for infantry to engage light cavalry with bows or javelins in close combat, as long as the chosen ground didn't put a major hindrance to the cavalry movement. The only resort for engagement were missile weapons in ranged combat. In this case both cavalry and infantry fought only in a missile exchange. While the infantry can be considered static in comparison to the cavalry, their own protection, the damage their missiles would cause and the hit rate were important.
    For example in the prelude of the battle of Mohi, crossbowmen, protected by pavises, sniped at the Mongol light cavalry, resulting in a tactical defeat of this Mongol unit even if the Mongols did go on to win the overall Battle.[7]
    The defence of such ranged combat units was important, for cavalry could always switch roles and engage the ranged combat infantry (often lightly armored skirmishers) in close combat.
    Against heavy cavalry with lances the following tactics were sometimes effective:
    Missile weapons: The longbow and the crossbow were able to threaten knights. Although the heavy noble cavalry of Middle Ages often fought on foot or at least avoided futile frontal attacks, it happened several times that knightly armies led charges according to their warrior ideal. The results could be devastating. At Crécy (1346) and Poitiers(1356), the French knights suffered heavy casualties against the Welsh/English longbowmen. Important for military archery was the ability to keep several arrows in the air. Thus, while a cavalry charge followed a strict pattern of acceleration (400 metres in 2 minutes, gallop just at the last 150 metres) from a distance beyond effective weapon range, arrows could be launched to hail down on the advancing enemy as they came within effective range.
    Polearms: The long spears (pikes) of Scots and Swiss were an excellent defensive weapon against cavalry. The warriors stood in tight formations like an ancient phalanx, the end of their pikes embedded in the ground, presenting a massive spiked wall. In battle against the Scots, the English knights proved to be as narrow-minded as their French counterparts, employing the classic cavalry charge despite the new challenge of the Scottish pike. In the battles of Stirling Bridge (1297) and Bannockburn (1314) they were defeated by the Scots. While the English imitated this tactic successfully against the French, the Swiss perfected it. Despite longer lances for the knights, this formation was now almost impenetrable. Pikemen with polearms remained an important part of armies throughout the 30 Years War. Later tactics used against this formation included caracole maneuvers with ranged weapons.
    Using advantages of the terrain: Lancers needed hard, plain ground and enough space for attack. A clever enemy avoided battle on open ground and preferred marshy, mountainous or arboreous grounds for battle. The Scots did this at Bannockburn and Stirling, and in nearly all their guerilla fighting against the English, as did the Welsh to a great extent. The Swiss defeated the Austrian knights at the battle of Morgarten (1315) by attacking the knightly army in a narrow place between an acclivity and a swamp. The peasants of Dithmarschen faced in 1500, at Hemmingstedt, the army of the Danish king. They opened the dykes and flooded the country. If the terrain was not well suited for a cavalry attack, English knights often fought on foot and used their lances as pikes.
    from wiki. There is no way cavalry could kill a prepared pikewall...

    from napoleonic era it was a well known FACT that cavalry would never charge head onto a bayonet wall (like musketeers in square formation). The formation was impenetrable for cavalry and most infantry from the front unless people started running or the formation was flanked. And no, pikes were one of the main things that killed off the feudal order.

    where can I download RR?
    Last edited by Nikitn; July 14, 2010 at 09:03 AM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    From http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_lancepistol.html

    Despite common belief, the heavy infantry of the Swiss and English models had been dominating European battlefields for some time prior to the dawn of the 16th Century. Compared to the Swiss pike phalanx or the English longbowmen backed by men-at-arms on foot, the heavy cavalry of the feudal pattern, peopled by ungovernable nobles, was as much a liability as a force to be reckoned with. However, French King Charles VIII's compagnies d'ordonnance, consisting of fully armoured nobles and gentry (men-at-arms or gendarmes) mounted on armoured horses, organized and disciplined as well as any force in Europe at the time, changed that in the course of a single battle. When they hit the Italian Condottieri heavy horse at Fornovo in 1495 the Italians were scattered like ninepins, leaving their infantry to be slaughtered at leisure. At Ravenna in 1512, French knights rode completely through a Landsknecht pike-square doing little damage, but proving that they were virtually impregnable. However, such organizations were incredibly expensive to maintain, and only the French crown was capable of doing this to any serious degree. There was an attempt by the Burgundian Dukes and their Habsburg heirs to copy these compaigne d'ordonnance with their own, but they were few in number. When Henry VIII of England invaded France in 1513 he had enormous difficulty in collecting a reasonable number of Men-at-Arms and had to make due with demi-lancers, men wearing only half-armour or three-quarter armour, riding unarmoured horses, and hiring Burgundian (i.e., Netherlandish) heavy horse to compensate for the lack.

    Look, as I said, super-heavy cavalry is highly resistant to pikes. In the charge, they will lose a lot, but once in melee, the pikes are in trouble. Why do you think they included polearms in these formations? M1TW and every miniatures rules set makes pikes of little value in melee vs cavalry. They are mostly good against the charge. Play the Pavia historical battle, watch the French cavalry get massacred when it hits the pike wall.

    Oh, and Napoleonic so-called 'heavy cavalry' was at best light cavalry in Medieval terms. Of course they failed versus the British squares, they had sabres and the horses were in no way comparable to the medieval stallion destrier/warhorse in training, temperament or stature. I would venture to say that a few companies of medieval French Gendarmes would have smashed the British infantry squares at Waterloo, if they had managed to close against the musket fire.
    Last edited by Point Blank; July 14, 2010 at 07:44 AM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    Oh snap!

  6. #6

    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    Try the Pavia historical battle, you will see that Pikemen are still very effective - as long as their formation remains intact.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    OK so basically ur entire argument revolves around some vague example where cavalry somehow got through a pike square?? we don't know the details. But in your mod, pikemen get (seriously, no exaggeration) MASSACRED by heavy cavalry. IRL I don't think it is easy to make even these elite medieval horses charge into sharp pikes. Napolenic cavalry would never do this

  8. #8

    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    I just played Pavia, and the attacking French Gendarmes got massacred by the defending Landsknechts. Don't expect other than high-quality pikemen to withstand charges by super-heavy cavalry. Note in the battle if Marignano, French heavy cavalry made repeated charges against the Swiss pike squares to delay them - successfully.

    Napoleonic cavalry are completely irrelevant to this argument. They aren't 'heavy' in any medieval sense. Napoleonic 'heavy' cavalry would last about a minute versus Medieval heavy cavalry, especially French Renaissance heavy cavalry.

    Other than Landsknechts and Swiss pikemen (and some others such as Tercois and Adventuros), any other pikemen are strictly attrition units.

    Please read the thread I pointed to. The function of pikemen was to provide a 'wall' behind which gunners could hide. If the wall was penetrated by by determined heavy cavalry, they had polearm units to deal with them.
    Last edited by Point Blank; July 14, 2010 at 09:22 AM.

  9. #9
    Lemming69's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    [QUOTE=Kirov123;7671870]from napoleonic era it was a well known FACT that cavalry would never charge head onto a bayonet wallQUOTE]

    In the timeframe in which stainless steel is set as regards to the presence of pikes, (ie the 16th century) lavish full plate armour was still worn by certain units of cavalry (even if it was indeed becoming obsolete by the advance of gunpowder), so how you can moan and groan at the prospect of such heavily armoured cavalry penatrating a pike wall largely unscathed is unreasonable.

    The cavalry of the napoleonic era was used in a different manner to cavalry on a late medieval battlefield, and also had much lighter protection, if any at protection at all that is- in fact the use of steel breast plates or helmets was entirely decorative. The fact that a line of musketeers equipped with bayonets would have a very different effect on cavalry than a wall of 10ft pikes also puts your argument to scrutiny. It is also incredibly unlikely that pointblank would give pikes an ahistorical disadvantage purely on a whim. As he has explained, there is a reason for these stat tweaks.

  10. #10
    hippacrocafish's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    Awww snap! historical throw-down!

    I changed the pikemen's stats on my game, what I did is I basically gave them a higher base attack but a very low charge bonus to force the player to use them defensively. Low-quality pikes (Pike Militia, Pikemen) have around 3-4 attack, average-quality pikes (Terico, Aventuros, Late Pikemen etc.) have about 4-6, and Elite pikes (Swiss, Late Terico, etc.) have around 7-8. I also gave the elite pikes (And some average ones) a slightly higher charge bonus and faster movement speed (%10 faster than low-quality pikes) so they can flank their enemies more easily.

    I've made so many changes to the original export_descr_units that it barely resembles PB's original. Cavalry are still dominant though, mostly due to their increased movement speed (+%20 for heavy cav, +%30 for light cav).

  11. #11

    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    Is this Kirov guy trolling? Surely his arguments are a poor attempt at a joke...

    Using wiki as your historical documentation: pathetic.
    Referring to Napoleonic cavalry as a reference for medieval warfare tactics: more pathetic.
    Whining to a mod leader who has spent hours upon hours rebalancing unit stats based on historical representations of these units' abilities compared to your complete inexperience with such attempts and blatant lack of education concerning historical warfare and pike strategems: most pathetic.

    Nobody's going to make an "RR" only mod for you; just leave. Seriously, PB could be spending his time doing incredibly more constructive things for this mod than indulging in your poorly thought-out rhetoric. Alas, PB once again maintains the legitimacy of his unit design and stat rebalancing through methodical argumentation and superior historical sources.
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  12. #12
    CamilleBonparte's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    What is with the Anti-PB sentiment lately...if you don't like his changes don't play his mod.

  13. #13
    Seether's Avatar RoTK Workhorse
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    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    Some people are just douchebags. For some reason they believe that a pike is the most ultimate, definitive cavalry killer ever conceived. PB has done his homework and has explained, in great detail, who, what, where, when, how, and why pikes were used in the medieval era. For those haters who live in fantasy land, where pikemen are invincible against cavalry and want to continually cry about it, go bugger off to some other mod.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    If you don't like it, then edit the EDU and change their attack.

    MISSION COMPLETE

  15. #15

    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    Mission impossible for some it seems

  16. #16

    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    Quote Originally Posted by Point Blank View Post

    Napoleonic cavalry are completely irrelevant to this argument. They aren't 'heavy' in any medieval sense. Napoleonic 'heavy' cavalry would last about a minute versus Medieval heavy cavalry, especially French Renaissance heavy cavalry.
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Valiant View Post
    Alien vs Predator
    Bruce Lee vs Godzila
    I'll put my money on Bruce lee thank you very much. Anyway on topic, I don't really understand the whining on pikeman nerfing. I only use pike/spear men as charge absorbers (which spearmen aren't good at doing either so I use them as bait) while I get a unit of cavalry to flank the enemy cavalry.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirov123 View Post
    Uhh, is there a way to get this mod without annoying "rebalance" attempts?
    Get the 6.2.4 patch. If thats not close enough then reintegrate the other submods you want manually.
    This is just 1 example, I don't like the "rebalancing" in general.
    Then don't play this mod. Aside from Real Combat / Real Recruitment Compilation there is still Stainless Steel 6.1 and 6.2 to choose from.
    I only want "real recruitment" (I don't like to have so many elite units) but I can't find download link.
    Afaik RC and RR are merged for some time now - you'd have to it (splitting them up) yourself. Mind you I wouldn't give you permission to do it if I were PB but he's most likely a better man then I am. After all he is still working on this despite negative outbursts that would have hampered my motivation quite a bit.

    PS:
    In an unrelated story a man walked into a vegan resteraunt and complained about the lack of meat dishes. As he didn't even use once in his complained and didn't call the menu annoying the reception he received was still quite welcome.

  19. #19
    Rogal Dorn's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    Quote Originally Posted by bane_tw View Post
    Afaik RC and RR are merged for some time now - you'd have to it (splitting them up) yourself. Mind you I wouldn't give you permission to do it if I were PB but he's most likely a better man then I am. After all he is still working on this despite negative outbursts that would have hampered my motivation quite a bit.
    I personally wouldn't mind the RC without the RR . Still, the OP is an idiot.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    I think you will find that 6.3 allows RC without RR I'm, not sure on that, gracul has more info.

    Regarding the pikes, there were complaints for YEARS that they were overpowered. I'm happy with them now, finally. Like any other weapon (system), they are a response to the tactical (and social) circumstances of the day. Alexander was using them centuries before, and the medieval domination of super heavy cavalry combined with the newly available counter-weapon of firearms caused them to rise to prominence again. Pikes were not super weapons - note that only the most elite pike units (Swiss, Tercios) were ever really effective on the attack, during the medieval era anyway.

    Otherwise, if you like Pike-and-Shot warfare, I recommend For King or Country by AlphaDelta, an absolutely superb mod.
    Last edited by Point Blank; July 15, 2010 at 12:40 PM.

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