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Thread: Late-game-challenge discussion

  1. #41

    Default Re: Late-game-challenge discussion

    This is a major issue for me ,i try to role play and as a part of it i never declare war, with exception being when i want to recreate some historical wars like Punic , etc , instead i let AI to build up and comes after me . This is how i always played since original Shogun.

    It is extremely frustrating when AI hate your guts and has similar size empire and does nothing. I have sink somewhere around 800+ hours in this game and had only maybe few times AI declaring war on me past turn 50+. And even when it does there is no AI army anywhere near my territory, so i can assume that war declaration was one of those random ones that have chance to occur on every turn (there is a value in db tables for that).

    That just never happened in any previous TW game , going from Shogun to Shogun 2 and it's very disheartening.I don't know if CA hardcoded anything , but Rome 2 CAI is complete;y harmless and neutered,IMHO
    Last edited by Tariq; December 17, 2015 at 06:11 PM.






  2. #42

    Default Re: Late-game-challenge discussion

    It can be very dependent on campaign difficulty level in Rome 2.

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  3. #43

    Default Re: Late-game-challenge discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Dresden View Post
    It can be very dependent on campaign difficulty level in Rome 2.
    I have tried every difficulty, with or without mods, closest i got was on VH with part of your Hardcore mod (financial boost and diplomacy part),AI was very lively, but still no war declarations...

    I am about to start another one with increased military aggression (raised it one level across the board) so will see.






  4. #44
    Litharion's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Late-game-challenge discussion

    We as a Team will always try to add new mechanics. The first one for 1.2 being the tribal unification idea Dresden mentioned above. The War Weariness script from charlemagne is also something I will try to implement and Manpower is still on top of my list. These mechanics will make the game play differently and like the supply system a bit harder.

  5. #45

    Default Re: Late-game-challenge discussion

    Guys, really, please don't take my comments as anything but what they are, suggestions on alternatives to the changes that you are considering to make and taking the opportunity to have a friendly historical debate

    Dresden, I know that if you and the team decide to implement that, it will be done as a nuanced feature and not as a blunt modifier. I just wanted to point out that the feature might interact badly with the artificial "cultural affinity" diplo bonus, since if, anything, it should be a malus.

    Flashheart, I see your point, if the approach us nuanced, it would not be used n the same category as legendary difficulty. A blunt modifier would be. It depends on the execution.

    To recap, I just wanted to say that if it was up to me I would focus on a realistic and targeted mechanic to increase the enjoyability of the late game (like a manpower system or a culture spread mechanic) rather than mess with the bad diplomatic system that we inherited from vanilla. It is filled with badly thought, artificial variables, of which I enjoyed presenting an example.
    The problem is that the late game steamroller is completely historical and realistic, and it is exactly what happened in this time period to Rome. Can anyone point out a war after the Punic wars thatvuf the Roman had lost they would have lost their empire and Independence?
    Balancing gameplay and historical accuracy is hard and compromises need to be made, I was just trying to suggest more realistic alternatives.

    I might be wrong though, you guys have already pulled off feats that can only be explained with magic in my eyes, so you might be able to redesign the diplomacy in this game to be more nuanced and realistic. If you do, I am going to once again silently applaud your ability, perseverance and your willingness to entertain this old fan of yours

  6. #46
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Late-game-challenge discussion

    Rome was constantly raided by barbarians on borders, Germanic invasion in I century BC caused battle of Arausio which was bigger defeat then Cannae, Hellenic states were stormed by Celtic invasion, Persia was conquered by small Macedonia. All this stuff can't happen in late game of TW game, because AI won't attack, AI can't take any opportunity to invade player and cause any trouble. Manpower and culture conmversion will not be a problem for you once you are in the late game, your proposal with increasing difficulty with these things will actually do what you are afraid off, it will increase base difficulty. Once you have 1/2 of the map, manpower will not be a problem for you at all, same for culture conversion as your tech, governors and stuff will be pumped up. I don't quite see what can be enjoyable when you just move your armies from one country to another without any risks. I can understand the argument about need for casual experience but the truth is that DeI is all about being the opposite of casual experience. That is why first 50-100 turns are a lot of fun, because you have to think and you actually care about what to do next instead of painting the map in one color.
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  7. #47

    Default Re: Late-game-challenge discussion

    All your historical examples are either "early game" examples (I.e. Celtic invasions in Greece) or just pure pinpricks for a large empire. Yes
    , even the Quadi and Marcomanni invasion was never a systemic threat for the Roman empire. The game does not simulate small Germanic raids, and the large ones happened past the end of the time frame of Rome 2, Attila simulates those with the horde mechanic.
    The Persians empire being invaded and conquered by Alexander is a rare example of late game threat, I admit.

    Once you own 1/2 the map it is historically accurate and realistic for your game to be a cakewalk. You should be steamrolling. The Romans DID steamroll.
    Once you own half the map it us time to restart.

    I get your point though. You are talking about flattening the difficulty curve. The challenge is usually high at the beginning, flat for a while and then declines faster as you keep conquering. That's normal both in games and in real life. And I don't think it is a bad thing either since the steamroll phase is tied to the sense of achievement. If no matter how much I conquer there is always a challenge just as big behind the corner, it feels futile... Why bother? Also there is a slippery slope... Where is the challenge when you own 90% of the map?
    Ultimately I realize that it is a philosophical disagreement. Some people like the inflexion point when the game becomes easier to come sooner rather than later.

    But hey, this is your mod. I understand if you tweak it to your liking, you can't make everybody happy. I said my piece.
    Last edited by PietrolEremita; December 18, 2015 at 08:02 AM.

  8. #48
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    Default Re: Late-game-challenge discussion

    They are not early game examples, as history did not start at 270 BC ; P Terms early and late game only apply to the point in which you start the campaign.

    Again, nobody talks that you should start losing when you have 1/2 of the map conquered, but you should feel at least slight threat in certain areas. If rest of your campaign means that AI is braindead because it will never do anything against you then you can just quit the campaign as the rest of it will be only doing same thing each turn, move your army where YOU want and conquer what YOU want instead of doing something similar in theory but dictated not only by your will. Sure, ultimate goal of the game is mostly to conquer everything, but it makes things less rutine like if you want to conquer nation B and you have all your armies there, but nation Y on other part of your empire masses their armies so you have to either postpone your conquest or divide your armies (hence the name of the mod).
    Last edited by KAM 2150; December 18, 2015 at 07:58 AM.
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  9. #49

    Default Re: Late-game-challenge discussion

    I agree with your point, I think we just come from different angles. I edited my post before I saw your reply to clarify my point

  10. #50
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    Default Re: Late-game-challenge discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM 2150 View Post
    (hence the name of the mod).
    How long have you been waiting to use that line?

    Reading that last comment felt like watching inception or figuring out the clue in the Sixth Sense (movie). I don't know, just that feeling how it all ties together.

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    Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
    I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
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  11. #51
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Late-game-challenge discussion

    Way to long my friend, way to long
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  12. #52
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    Icon14 Re: Late-game-challenge discussion

    guys, my experience in late game of augustus campagin setted on Hard/Normal its awesome, but I also use this official submods:

    - DEI Hardcore
    - DEI training Bulding bonus removed
    - DEI Marian reform for augustus campaign
    - Enhanced Dust

    Here You have a picture of the year 12BC

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I'm allied with Gauls, Belge, Helveti and at war with Parthia from the east, Pontos from the northern dacia, dacians in Southern Dacia and Pompeius in Eastern africa, finally I'm tryng to keep good relations with Lepidus and Boi faction in eastern germany, but is not easy especially for Lepidus because I'm not giving support against Pompeius so I ain't get any diplomacy bonus for miltary actions against him.

    I must say that Hardcore mod is a really game changing mod; at this point of the campaign I'm still having economy instability and was unable to convert many barabarian buildings in old conquested Iberia, cause many other central cities have to be developed first then the peripherial one.

    Talking about Diplomacy, I want to tell you about diplomatic disaster I made in Dacia.
    Firstly while was in war against Thracians, I freed the Dacians form theyr oppressor so Dacians allied with me against thracians.
    Then instead of conquering the last settlment of Thracians I subjugated them, with the intention of keeping a border allied state in southern dacia, mainly beacuse I don't have interests to expand north and the parthians from asia are really close now after the fall of Antonius. So Soon, tensions between dacians and me arised and finally they joined Pontus in the war against me and destroyed thracian faction, my client state.
    Last but not least, keeping decent realtions with Lepidus its a really hard job but the intent is to finish the campaign allied with him.

    Only bug I have, are some Lepidus Legions stuck in sicily unable to return in africa.

    Great Job TEAM

  13. #53

    Default Re: Late-game-challenge discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM 2150 View Post
    They are not early game examples, as history did not start at 270 BC ; P Terms early and late game only apply to the point in which you start the campaign.

    Again, nobody talks that you should start losing when you have 1/2 of the map conquered, but you should feel at least slight threat in certain areas. If rest of your campaign means that AI is braindead because it will never do anything against you then you can just quit the campaign as the rest of it will be only doing same thing each turn, move your army where YOU want and conquer what YOU want instead of doing something similar in theory but dictated not only by your will. Sure, ultimate goal of the game is mostly to conquer everything, but it makes things less rutine like if you want to conquer nation B and you have all your armies there, but nation Y on other part of your empire masses their armies so you have to either postpone your conquest or divide your armies (hence the name of the mod).
    I do think that unwillingness of AI to attack Human army/settlement without having 3+ to 1 number advantage plays major role in all of this. Is there a way to get AI to reconsider that evaluation process, and as the counterbalance make battles harder/more costly to human player or that is hardcoded( i know battle part is not)?

    Maybe making auto resolve even more heavily favoring AI when 1 on 1?

    On the other hand, if one goes and plays Stainless Steel with Lusted AI , you will see lot of this happening there(same AI behavior to bore you to death by avoiding human player confrontation), and Jack Lusted is part of CA that does AI.It's not criticism of Jack , just a mere observation


    *** Update: I have tweaked several things, mostly using some of Dresden's tables from his submods, changed Imperium diplomatic penalties to higher + slightly increased number of armies per Imperium level and what do you know , on my Imperium lvl 4 with power on my side , as soon i leave areas defended lightly enough , AI declares war, pending that they don't like me.
    Last edited by Tariq; December 19, 2015 at 07:28 PM.






  14. #54
    ostendadler's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Late-game-challenge discussion

    According to CA (https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/co...nto_the_grand/)

    Its easily transferable to Vanilla Attila. Let's hope its also possible to import into Rome 2. (I do recall it was present in Empire Total War but never really understood how it worked)

    Anyway keep up the good game. I'm one of your old fans who is looking forward to be the AI's in late game! Keep up the good work
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  15. #55
    gdwitt's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Late-game-challenge discussion

    I like this thread as it is a key problem with TW.
    Some random ideas:
    In Civ5, the peaceful kingdoms were able to accelerate ahead of warmakers with wonders, tech and policy options.
    The symmetry is poor because in Civ you could build a new building every 10-20 turns whereas here we're stuck with 3-5 slots for the entire campaign.
    An easy fix would just be to handicap tech or food even more. If you do this, maybe add a few techs that represent civil policies, such as new policy options as time evolves.
    But alot of these penalties are already in place very nicely in DEI. Buildings cost so much and give little return versus just taking over the neighboring cities.
    Another idea: You know that you still get the full income from an enemy base if you occupy it?
    Why not automatically razing it 20% no matter what you decide, forcing you to invest or leave.
    Then on repair, the buildings will give only 50% of their former benefits until you rebuild them?
    This would match the puppet state mechanism in Civ5

    Maybe extended warfare could cause global handicaps as in Attila?

    Looking back again. I recall that Third Age Total War had triggered armies that generated when you attacked the faction's home base.
    That should be easy to program back in.
    I know RTW has a similar mechanism with slaves, but the slave armies are just so poor at battle and don't stop to reestablish the faction.
    I would vote for a rally trigger that would force you to confront a stack of partisans whenever a faction was eliminated.

    I'm sure you've seen the parts in the Campaign Variables :




    economic_wealth_category_threshold_moderate

    economic_wealth_max_amount_moderate

    I don't see how this helps in late game? But does removing it help?
    The problem I have with modding is that half the variables are empty and don't seem to have an effect.

    My New Year's wish: give me a Rome, Macedon or Carthage AI that truly steamrolls. I haven't had a chance to stand up to an effective Rome AI in 2 years of playing.[/TD]
    Last edited by gdwitt; December 24, 2015 at 11:10 PM.

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