Apology from CA...

[Halie Satanus]

I couldn't find any discussion on this, please delete/move if it's somewhere else.

CA have finally cast off the cloak of denial and admitted, in a round about way, to their many failures and mistreatment of the fans/community.

Reading between the lines and extrapolating info from many other sources (see spoiler) on the fall of CA.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

PA.
Legend of total war.
The Lotus Eaters.

I guess, like myself, most here don't play TW games any more, following years of loyalty and dedication to the series being brushed off with the snide mistreatment of a creator over a consumer base that they couldn't envisage turning on them. Seems the CA practice of overcharging for DLC's that have poor content, has finally hit the Warhammer community and they have logged discontent by not buying the latest version (DLC).

It's interesting that they lumped Pharaoh in there, which it seems has been an epic flop. Yet still no mention of the modding communities that made their games a continued success (almost) regardless of how bad the base games were on release.

I think this is about 10 years too late, CA should have done a lot more for community relations even pre-Warhammer. But we'll see if they put more effort into historical titles in the future, or if this is just an attempt to maintain the Warhammer cash cow.

[Dismounted Feudal Knight]

I think this is first of a kind (the open letter next door touches on it but isn't quite the same), but I've scooted it into General TW discussion.

I do play total war semi regularly... the old ones, which caught me in the first place and I can still get amusement from. Actually I even play some of the newer stuff but it is not the same and I do not play it with any consistency.

They're going to need to make some long hard changes to alter course and what I suspect will happen is another step in the cycle: some years of good changes followed by a relapse. I hope I'm wrong, others have predicted this too.

From a strictly business standpoint it doesn't make sense to keep working with what is demonstrably failing, the lapsing quality of later titles culminating in Pharaoh's response, so it would be insane if we didn't see some sort of change in course. If it will do the trick, who knows.

[Halie Satanus]

I think they need a big historic title Medieval or Rome III. But given that's been obvious for years and they came up with 'Thrones of Britannia' (flop), 'Three Kingdoms' (canned) 'Pharaoh' (flop), I wouldn't hold my breath.

I get it, Warhammer sells a lot more than historic titles but any company with sense would have realised you don't throw away your bread and butter.

[Dismounted Feudal Knight]

If canned industrial bread gets them the sales...

But I would not be surprised if they appeal to an age old request like Med 3 or Emp 2, something on those lines, or even a remaster for Med 2 despite Feral stringently stating they have not been approached/have no plans for such a project. Rome 3 strikes me as improbable, but we'll see what happens. I do think push has come to shove and if we do see a flop next, it will be a flop of the eyes not meeting the stomach - not because they tried to do another Pharaoh.

Three Kingdoms has actually been relatively popular for its eastern-targeting audience and appears to have been technically ambitious, though an utter mess under the hood and aborted in infancy. I think it might have come to achieve Rome 2 levels of interest if it wasn't dropped, but ToB and Troy were stocking stuffers and Pharaoh was too close to both to carve any meaningful niche. Again, I think they have to at least try and be ambitious, if/how they pull it off is another question.

In any case a good business decision for customers, and for that matter this applies to any game and franchise, is not to hold your breath and to always see what you're getting before you buy. Preordering incentivizes sloppy delivery. Let it come out, let it work out bugs, buy the viable product and support it further if it does the job. If early reports are promising enough and you really want to support say, early access/release, at least get an impression of what you can expect before funding it. There are inevitably too many people who will not follow this advice and do early testing for you, which means your expectations can be, well, whatever you like because you won't have your money on the line unnecessarily anyway.

Therefore it becomes a game of patience, CA will shape up or they will lose and you will have the games and pursuits you prefer either way, let CA re-earn its spot at the table with whatever it comes up with next...

[alhoon]

Empire 2 or Med3 would draw people back in.
I am puzzled as why 3KTW didn't go well in China. It is the best Total War Game IMO.

As of Pharaoh, I could not master the interest to play it and I have not bought it. I think it is the first Total War I haven't bought. I have Britannia (and never played it) I have got Troy from Epic games when they gave it out for free ... and never played it. But Pharaoh I can't even be bothered to buy. Medieval 3? Empire 2 (with naval battles)? I would buy in a heartbeat.

[Abdülmecid I]

The recent commercial history of CA is a bit weird. Warhammer I & ΙΙ initially failed to meet expectations, because they didn't reach the pre-order figures of Rome II, which is very worrying, considering that Games Workshop receives a nice portion of the profits for the loyalties of the franchise. In fact, Warhammer II didn't even come close. However, these setbacks were negated by the unprecedented success of the DLCs, starting even from the first lord and race packs. Warhammer II eventually managed to recover many former fans, which led to Warhammer III being a great success. Three Kingdoms also performed very well in pre-orders, but the performance of its DLCs was underwhelming. Troy relied mainly on the very advantageous deal with Epic. As for the future, we know from inside information that there are plans for three tent-pole games, the first one being historical and the other two fantasy. 40K is basically guaranteed. As for the historical game, it will almost certainly take place in the modern era. Many have guessed World War I, but I expect something even more recent. Medieval III and Empire II are out of question, however. These scenarios have been explicitly rejected by leaks.

That being said, some of these projects might get scrapped, because CA has been suffering from structural issues. Pharaoh's flop and the controversy surrounding Shadows of Change are just the surface. As far as I understand, like many companies in the video-gaming industry, CA overextended itself. Thanks to the profits generated by the pandemic, it invested too much into bloating its staff and chasing off the popular trends, which led to the Hyenas disaster. The annual release model has also shown its limits. It gives the opportunity to CA to maximize its revenue, but the result is the incessant production of mediocre products that get easily forgotten. Anyway, I don't think the next historical game will be cancelled, but its release date, originally planned for 2024, will be postponed. Not sure, however, if this will lead to the creation of a game of higher quality. CA will not hesitate to cut corners in order to follow the strict time schedule. Imagine a Napoleon game without Spain or the Ottoman Empire.

[alhoon]

What is the controversy over "shadows of Change"? And what is the "Hyenas disaster"?

I have WHI, II, III. I have played WH II for a bit. I tried to get into WH3 because I read the diplomacy has similar things with 3KTW about trade of regions... but I very quickly dropped it and went back to 3KTW. It is not that I didn't like WHIII. It is just that I wanted more 3KTW and WH3 was not that. But a new campaign in 3KTW was so different thanks to the different faction mechanics that it quickly fit what I wanted.

I think many have similar issues with some of the games you mention: Pharaoh was, according to positive and negative critics, similar in scope and "feeling" to Troy. But those that wanted Troy went back to Troy. Those that didn't like Troy ... didn't like Pharaoh either. So it flopped.

The "Sell a rebrand of the game as a new full game instead of a standalone DLC, or simply a DLC" may have worked for Napoleon - ETW and Attila - R2TW but didn't work for Pharaoh - Troy.

[Halie Satanus]

The recent commercial history of CA is a bit weird.

That being said, some of these projects might get scrapped, because CA has been suffering from structural issues. Pharaoh's flop and the controversy surrounding Shadows of Change are just the surface.

Aye 'weird' might be an understatement.. Internal strife, whistle blowers, employees being threatened - leading to mass sackings... My sense is the historical titles were done and dusted anyway as far as CA were concerned, once they started farming them out to satellite studios to focus on Hyenas.

What is the controversy over "shadows of Change"? And what is the "Hyenas disaster"?

I believe 'Shadows of Change' was a DLC that didn't live up to fans expectations, was in fact way off.
Hyenas' was a 'Fortnight' style shot em up title CA put a huge amount of time/investment into, then cancelled by Sega due to below from Wiki.

''Hyenas was a planned science-fiction first-person shooter developed by Creative Assembly and published by Sega. Set in a dystopian near-future, players were to take control of a space pirate known as a Hyena and compete in teams of three to raid heavily-guarded Plunderships. The game was ultimately cancelled by Sega in late September 2023, citing a low potential for profitability.''

I'm no expert, but it seems Taleworlds (Bannerlord) have done everything right that CA did wrong.

[JojoPoniatowski]

That letter is corpo slop. "We are still going to sell you endless DLC"
They have been doing this for a decade. It's time for them to own up and ditch the launcher and start open sourcing the old games so we can finish work they refuse to start and haphazardly patch too late. Modders will end up spending more time than they can fund fixing their products. And they just tighten the grip.
They need to allow content to flow from their work. They will literally be able to sell more copies and DLC if people want to buy the game to play a mod which completes the game.
Personally I just want Napoleon Total War to be the full experience it is rigged for but corners were cut and arcadized so it could sell back then and run smooth.
Why does CA tighten and tighten on their old games? Why will they not release the resource so that people can enjoy the products and go straight to Steam and download the version they want and play? They are losing money by making it difficult to work with their games.
We spent a lot of money on their products. It's time to let go. Bethesda is doing the same with Skyrim, and Paradox abuses their DLC model way worse. Then look at what 343 did to Halo and now every old piece of content is available and cared for. MCC had a rough road, but once they caved to people who understood the game's code better than any funding could provide the original Halo trilogy went from beloved to critical work of renaissance computer art. CA's take is ridiculous.

[PikeStance]

I couldn't find any discussion on this, please delete/move if it's somewhere else.

CA have finally cast off the cloak of denial and admitted, in a round about way, to their many failures and mistreatment of the fans/community.

Reading between the lines and extrapolating info from many other sources (see spoiler) on the fall of CA.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

PA.
Legend of total war.
The Lotus Eaters.

I guess, like myself, most here don't play TW games any more, following years of loyalty and dedication to the series being brushed off with the snide mistreatment of a creator over a consumer base that they couldn't envisage turning on them. Seems the CA practice of overcharging for DLC's that have poor content, has finally hit the Warhammer community and they have logged discontent by not buying the latest version (DLC).

It's interesting that they lumped Pharaoh in there, which it seems has been an epic flop. Yet still no mention of the modding communities that made their games a continued success (almost) regardless of how bad the base games were on release.

I think this is about 10 years too late, CA should have done a lot more for community relations even pre-Warhammer. But we'll see if they put more effort into historical titles in the future, or if this is just an attempt to maintain the Warhammer cash cow.

I could not agreed more. Moreover, the games have drifted away from the reason why people played in the first place. I am more interested in Grand tactician, UG's, Am. Rev and Manor Lords.
I only purchased 3K because of my interest in China, the game is irredeemably fantasy and a real chore to play.

[Alwyn]

This thread suggests that they have a long way to go. As I see it, their actions are more important than their words - and reducing the price of Pharaoh was a step in the right direction, at least. I'll be interested to see what they do in future - both with developing Pharaoh and with the next historical game.

[AnthoniusII]

I couldn't find any discussion on this, please delete/move if it's somewhere else.

CA have finally cast off the cloak of denial and admitted, in a round about way, to their many failures and mistreatment of the fans/community.

Reading between the lines and extrapolating info from many other sources (see spoiler) on the fall of CA.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

PA.
Legend of total war.
The Lotus Eaters.

I guess, like myself, most here don't play TW games any more, following years of loyalty and dedication to the series being brushed off with the snide mistreatment of a creator over a consumer base that they couldn't envisage turning on them. Seems the CA practice of overcharging for DLC's that have poor content, has finally hit the Warhammer community and they have logged discontent by not buying the latest version (DLC).

It's interesting that they lumped Pharaoh in there, which it seems has been an epic flop. Yet still no mention of the modding communities that made their games a continued success (almost) regardless of how bad the base games were on release.

I think this is about 10 years too late, CA should have done a lot more for community relations even pre-Warhammer. But we'll see if they put more effort into historical titles in the future, or if this is just an attempt to maintain the Warhammer cash cow.

I will agree that this apology came 10 years or more later than it should come. Now it apears as a despert measure to keep a minimum client basis but the whole attempt looks more than a mocking to TW hardcore players than an apology.
1st They hire the wrong modder based on his nationality and not based on his skills.
2nd They hire an entire team with 0 expirience of previus TW games
3rd They pay famous players to act as advertsers on priducts worthy anly for trush.
4th They cut any communication with the TW sites inorder to avoid answering hard questions.
5th For more than 10 years they follow the same mocking policy on creating TW games.
I wonder after al these actions with an apology worth today?