Hamas attacks southern Israel

[Ludicus]

Latest news, over 500 Palestinian civilians and medical staff have been killed in the Israeli strike at a Palestinian hospital.
Israel-Hamas war: At least 500 people killed in hospital ...

...The Anglican-run hospital was hit by Israeli rocket fire on 14 October leaving four members of staff wounded, according to a statement from Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby.

[conon394]

What did Arafat walk away from exactly?

The best deal he was ever going to get. He was not holding any trump cards. COnsider the soon to be state of the PAlestinians and tell the post Camp David deal Clinton managed to get Israel to agree was not better than the now the intervening 20 years.

[PointOfViewGun]

The best deal he was ever going to get. He was not holding any Trump cards.

Can you give the rough specifics of that deal?

[conon394]

Can you give the rough specifics of that deal?

From memory no. It been a while. But I will look them up with sources. But got a long drive to go see my lawyer and am scanning paper work - mind waiting for a longer post? But for example I'm sure the deal favored the Palestinians on East Jerusalem but like I said I try and find a breack down. Its People forget Clinton did no give up after Camp David failed and pretty was all in on trying till the end of presidency.

[Ludicus]

Some more news,

Spain rejects Israeli claims of its officials aligning with Hamas

Madrid has dismissed Israel’s claims that some members of Spain’s acting coalition government have aligned themselves “with Isis-style terrorism” by criticising Benjamin Netanyahu’s response to Hamas’s atrocities and suggesting Israeli forces are committing genocide and war crimes in the Gaza Strip.
Although Israel’s embassy in Madrid did not refer to any of the ministers by name, it put out an angry statement on Monday evening, accusing “certain elements” in the Spanish government of aligning with Hamas and of putting Spain’s Jewish communities in danger. It called on the socialist prime minister, Pedro Sánchez, to intervene and condemn his colleagues’ “shameful” comments.

Tech leaders boycott Europe's biggest tech

The tech event finds itself at the center of an extraordinary backlash after its founder, Paddy Cosgrave, accused Israel of war crimes.
Israel, in response, announced it will boycott next month’s event in Lisbon.

In his tweet, sent on October 13, Cosgrave said: “I’m shocked at the rhetoric and actions of so many Western leaders and governments, with the exception in particular of Ireland’s government, who for once did the right thing. War crimes, even when committed by allies, should be called out for what they are.”

Dor Shapira, the Israeli ambassador to Portugal, not only informed the mayor of Lisbon that his country would not take part but called on others to boycott the event. He said in a statement:
“Today, I wrote to the mayor of Lisbon informing him that Israel will not participate in the #WebSummit conference due to the outrageous statements made by the conference CEO, Paddy Cosgrave.

UN Commission on Palestine Finds Evidence of War Committed by All Sides during Ongoing Conflict.

[sumskilz]

Latest news, over 500 Palestinian civilians and medical staff have been killed in the Israeli strike at a Palestinian hospital.
Israel-Hamas war: At least 500 people killed in hospital ...

Considering that the only source is a Hamas run agency and that misfired Hamas rockets land in populated areas of Gaza all the time, it would be reasonable to reserve judgment until there’s more information.

Although this hospital is in the area that Gazans were warned to evacuate four days ago and Hamas has a history of placing military assets in hospitals, I doubt the IDF would have struck a hospital before warning the staff directly, as they have done in the past.

[mishkin]

Considering that the only source is a Hamas run agency and that misfired Hamas rockets land in populated areas of Gaza all the time, it would be reasonable to reserve judgment until there’s more information.

Although this hospital is in the area that Gazans were warned to evacuate four days ago and Hamas has a history of placing military assets in hospitals, I doubt the IDF would have struck a hospital before warning the staff directly, as they have done in the past.

Yeah better to wait for more information, but you are already blaming Hamas.

[Nebaki]

Considering that the only source is a Hamas run agency and that misfired Hamas rockets land in populated areas of Gaza all the time, it would be reasonable to reserve judgment until there’s more information.

Although this hospital is in the area that Gazans were warned to evacuate four days ago and Hamas has a history of placing military assets in hospitals, I doubt the IDF would have struck a hospital before warning the staff directly, as they have done in the past.

It's ridiculous no matter how you look at it. They need to throw something like a Scud that will have that strong impact. For some reason, this rocket goes and accidentally hits the hospital. It would be more logical to say that Hamas planted a bomb underneath and blew up the hospital.

[PointOfViewGun]

From memory no. It been a while. But I will look them up with sources. But got a long drive to go see my lawyer and am scanning paper work - mind waiting for a longer post? But for example I'm sure the deal favored the Palestinians on East Jerusalem but like I said I try and find a breack down. Its People forget Clinton did no give up after Camp David failed and pretty was all in on trying till the end of presidency.

I'm asking because there seems to be certain misconceptions about the summit. East Jerusalem is one of them. It's often passed on as if East Jerusalem in its entirety was proposed to Palestinians.

This was what was proposed by Israel concerning East Jerusalem:

Concerning Jerusalem: Palestinian sovereignty over the exterior Palestinian suburbs (like Beit Hanina) and over one or two of the Palestinian quarters in the so-called inner circle (like Wadi Joz or Sheikh Jarrah, for example), as well as a seat for the Palestinian government in the Old City. The Muslim, Christian and Armenian Quarters were to be put under a special regime. Palestinians were to be given custodianship over al Haram ash-Sharif, which would, however, remain under Israeli “residual” sovereignty. Palestinians were asked to give space to Jews for prayer in the al-Haram ash-Sharif area. Jerusalem as a whole was to remain under Israeli sovereignty.

To put it differently, while conceding sovereignty over some Palestinian quarters in East Jerusalem, as well as a seat for the Palestinian government, Israel insisted on keeping sovereignty over Jerusalem as a whole includingal-Haram ash-Sharif. In a clear change of the acceptedstatus quo, Israel demanded space for Jews to pray insideal-Haram area.

And by Palestinians concerning the same issue:

Concerning Jerusalem: full Palestinian sovereignty over East-Jerusalem, ceding, however, to Israel the Jewish Quarter and the Wailing Wall. There was readiness to exchange the Israeli settlements built after 1967 in East Jerusalem for land to be given to the new Palestinian State elsewhere. There was no readiness to discuss giving up sovereignty over al-Haram or allowing Jews to pray there, i.e. changing the status quo in this area.

Which one sounds more fair? I don't see how the Israeli proposal is favoured Palestinians.

[sumskilz]

Yeah better to wait for more information, but you are already blaming Hamas.

Maybe slow down and read what I wrote again.

In any case, the IDF have made a statement:

The Israel Defense Forces says that based on “intelligence information, a failed Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) rocket caused the deadly blast at the Gaza hospital.”

In a statement, the IDF says that “from an analysis of the IDF’s operational systems, an enemy rocket barrage was carried out towards Israel, which passed in the vicinity of the hospital, when it was hit.”

“According to intelligence information, from several sources we have, the PIJ organization is responsible for the failed [rocket] fire that hit the hospital,” the IDF adds.

[Søren]

Hamas is known to store rocket caches near hospitals, so there is also the possibility that a larger conflagration resulted from a hit on one of these, whichever side is responsible.

The IDF is currently claiming that it resulted from a Hamas rocket barrage.

https://x.com/Israel/status/1714366327538794512?s=20

Given the competing statements, I would reserve judgment on this one until more facts can be established.

Edit: Correction, actually a rocket from the Palestinian Islamic Jihad is the IDF claim

[Ludicus]

The IDF is currently claiming that it resulted from a Hamas rocket barrage.

It was the expected excuse...
And yet, already two days ago, the archbishop of Canterbury warned of the "grave danger” facing patients in Gaza after a hospital was hit by an Israeli rocket. They are running low on medical supplies. They are facing catastrophe. The Ahli Hospital was hit by Israeli rocket fire last night, with four staff injured in the blast. Other hospitals have also been hit.”

[Axalon]

Personally,

I found these two documentaries very interesting given what has happened the 7th October - and where too. Both also serve as historical recordings, provide historical insight and historical sourcematerial on top. They both provide (I think) a relevant perspective on things that are happening today in the current Israeli-Hamas war. One reminds us that the PLO is - and always where - a terrorist organization by nature. The other one reminds us that Gaza was given away, as a chance and peace offering to the local arabs (the self-styled “palestinians”) and how these local arabs ultimately handled and valued that chance and opportunity in retrospect…



This one is from is from 1982…


This one is from 2005…


You decide what to make out of these videos/documentaries. Feel free to post your reactions and commentary on either one, or both….

- A

[PointOfViewGun]

Hamas is known to store rocket caches near hospitals, so there is also the possibility that a larger conflagration resulted from a hit on one of these, whichever side is responsible.
The IDF is currently claiming that it resulted from a Hamas rocket barrage.
https://x.com/Israel/status/1714366327538794512?s=20
Given the competing statements, I would reserve judgment on this one until more facts can be established.
Edit: Correction, actually a rocket from the Palestinian Islamic Jihad is the IDF claim

The time stamps on the footage on that link is about 40 minutes apart from the actual timing of the explosion at the hospital.

[Siblesz]

In some aspects.
---
Israel turns down Zelensky request to make solidarity visit


No comments.

Biden: 'There must be a path to a Palestinian state' - CNBC

...the usual empty commitment to a two-state solution?

Leaders to meet as EU struggles to put on united front.



After Iraq and Afghanistan, it's about time this club of leaders who rule the world learned something useful about the past. So, after all, it's not that complicated: look for the solution that we know is fair- a two states solution; and apply the same law to everyone- friends and enemies.

My selection- four books to understand the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

1 -The idea that Israel settled in a somewhat desolate, impoverished territory, historically directionless, is discussed and dismantled in the book that challenges the official narrative based on Zionism. "Ten Myths about Israel" by the Jewish historian and dissident Zionist Ilan Pappé (Professor at the University of Exeter) was first published on the 50th anniversary of Israel. It is contested by the Israeli regime.


Pappé was here, a few months ago - English Version - University of Coimbra
Latest interview, a few days ago. My Israeli Friends: This is Why I Support Palestinians

2- The book "Hundred Years' War on Palestine" is written by the American-Palestinian historian Rashid Khalidi, a profound expert on the Israeli-Palestinian reality and an opponent of Hamas extremism. Here, we not only have a narrative of facts ordered chronologically but also a compelling account of the drama that has unfolded, claiming millions of civilian victims over decades. In 1899, Yusuf Diya al-Khalidi, mayor of Jerusalem, alarmed by the Zionist call to create a Jewish national home in Palestine, wrote a letter aimed at Theodore Herzl: the country had an indigenous people who would not easily accept their own displacement.

3- In 2021, the American-Jewish writer Nathan Thrall published a report in the New York Review of Books titled "A Day in the Life of Abed Salama." It paints a lucid portrait of a reality that has trivialized suffering, making it almost invisible until this moment when terror returns with an unprecedented dose of violence. Thrall humanizes it, making us unbearably complicit. Book summary,

The Deadly Red Tape of Israel's Occupation in Palestine

4- The autobiographical novel "A Tale of Love and Darkness" by Amos Oz is the voice of a child trying to navigate a universe where Palestinians and Zionist Jews come together and divide, even before the Second World War. It's a classic exploration of the dilemma of feeling part of two cultures. A Tale of Love and Darkness

Nice recommendations. Thank you.

Who has the power doesn't matter for deciding who's in the right. If a dog keep biting a bear until the bear eventually bites back, the blame isn't squarely on the bear simply because it has more power.
As for both sides killing civilians, yes, but there's a difference between civilians being killed as collateral damage, and going into a village, house to house, door to door, and shooting everyone. Going to a music festival for peace and killing hundreds. Firing thousands of rockets at civilian targets without a military target in sight. For them civilians aren't collateral, they're the target.

It's not a relationship between a bear and a dog... it's more like the relationship with an abusive person and his malnourished dog that he keeps in chains. The dog is miserable, forgotten, always in chains, and the master regularly taunts and abuses the dog. Suddenly the dog catches the master unawares and bites him. Suddenly the owner screams, "See! The dog is evil! He is attacking me!" And then he proceeds to beat the dog viciously almost to death. Some of the neighbors see this and say, "Ah yes... that dog is very violent and evil... he must be beaten." Other neighbors see the reality of the situation as it is, and understand that the aggression of the dog is caused by it being chained and abused by the narrow-minded and violent owner. If only the owner would wake up, realize that he is responsible for the aggressiveness of the dog, and release the dog from his chains, give him freedom and a good life... And yet Israel is doing the opposite. Every year Gaza's conditions deteriorate, and the people of Gaza have been made desperate.

This is not really true. Sharon's visit was unhelpful, and served as a useful spark for Palestinian resistance, but it is pretty overwhelmingly clear that the Second Intifada would have started anyway after the failure at Camp David. This is the view of most analysts, and has been supported by Palestinian voices as well.

E.g. the Communications Minister for the Palestinian Authority at the time:

"Whoever thinks that the Intifada broke out because of the despised Sharon's visit to the Al-Aqsa Mosque, is wrong, even if this visit was the straw that broke the back of the Palestinian people. This Intifada was planned in advance, ever since President Arafat's return from the Camp David negotiations, where he turned the table upside down on President Clinton. [Arafat] remained steadfast and challenged [Clinton]. He rejected the American terms and he did it in the heart of the US."

Several other Palestinian figures (including Arafat's widow) have gone on record to claim that it had been planned well before Sharon's visit too.

Perhaps you're right, and all the blame can land squarely on the shoulders of Arafat... so what then? Will you punish the plight of millions of Palestinians on the failure of one man?

Again, the point I'm trying to make is that if one player has more power and influence than another player, then that player needs to realize that by escalating the situation and choosing war instead of peace, he is only bringing more war and less security into his own backyard. Escalation is never the solution to a problem. And yet the reaction of the state of Israel most every other time has been just that. Escalation. Be the bigger person. An eye for an eye just doesn't work. Ariel Sharon's policy of escalation basically just brought more insecurity to Israel, not less. After the failure of the peace talks, had they offered the Palestinians just a little bit more land, perhaps we wouldn't be verging on WWIII now...

Case in point: in the last ten days, Hamas has succeeded in making the entire Muslim world unite in their cause. They have succeeded in antagonizing billions against the Jews. They have succeeded in making the Saudis and the UAE backtrack their normalization of ties with Israel... all of this why? Because Israel has retaliated ferociously. The harder Israel retaliates, the more they're moving away from the possibility of a long-term resolution, and the closer they are bringing the world towards WWIII...

Think of it another way... you are a Thai farmer, or some fisherman in the Antilles... and all of a sudden lights are out. Last news you got was that there was a nuclear war in the Middle East that escalated. All of a sudden you and your entire culture is facing mass oblivion even though you don't even know where the Israel is...
What I'm trying to point out is just how narrow minded, just how egocentric the Israeli position is. They are a small country, with a lot of power (backed by the U.S. which is the number one military power in the world). They have to get out of their own and religious/nationalistic minded bigotry to try to see the world as it is. They need to be the bigger person. What they DONT need to do is to escalate the situation and to create an apocalyptic style scenario for the rest of the 8 billion people in the planet because they want to defend Israel. What they need to do is to de-escalate. And then to be willing to cooperate with the Palestinians in the creation of a strong Palestinian secular state.

Regarding Moral equivalence I found Sam Harris quite clear on the issue:

There's a lot to say about this... the fact of the matter is that there is such a thing as moral equivalence because evil and violence doesn't exist in a people or a culture, it exists within the mind of an individual that allows it to happen and to be influenced by it. Whereas there is a definite violent culture within Islam, there is one as well in Christianity, and in Judaism.

To be honest, these three religions are three branches of the same evil tree. Christianity much less so when practiced in the way that it was originally intended to be practiced, but Christianity was hijacked by the Roman Empire in the Council of Niceae and many of its peaceful precepts and the original version of Christianity as a religion of peace was overthrown by its revertion back into Old Testament politics. Basically, whenever a Christian wants to commit violence, all he has to do is to read an excerpt of the Old Testament (the Torah), and done... whenever he wants to be peaceful, then he reads an excerpt of the New Testament. This is basically a misinterpretation of the original teachings of Jesus Christ, but hey... I guess it's only human to corrupt everything good and holy.

And so what we're facing in the West is basically a very old problem... monotheism. The fault with monotheism is the premise that there is only one god, and only one right way to follow that god. It is childish, and ludicrous to even try to possess the universe within the mind of a single human being, or to try to direct or to manipulate divine will for personal reasons. The universal mind serves no one. It serves everyone the same way. And yet the narrative of monotheism lies in contradiction to that singular/universal truth of non-duality.

The way to combat this problem is to understand the concept of non-duality that only Taoism, Hinduism, Buddhism offers. Neither Christianity, nor Islam, nor Judaism offer such a concept of transcendence and therefore you see this incessant violence springing from three three (perhaps only some Sufis or Christianity as practiced by the Seventh-day Adventist Church get it right, but then only through a lot of mental gymnastics. In any case, non-duality as a concept is very muddled and hard to get from any monotheistic tradition).

The problem with promoting Buddhism/Hinduism/Taoism is that you run into a wall because you are accused of "taking a side" by making people understand that "there is actually no side to take".... It is a bit like being accused of intolerance when one is intolerant about people who are intolerant.

Unfortunately, human logic will find any way to thwart any psychological advance that unravels a tribal/religious identity. We are hard-wired to resist such advances because the pre-frontal lobes of the brain are connected to the amygdale. The pre-frontal lobes are where most of our cultural/tribal feelings of belongings are located, but it is the filter of how the amygdale's flight/fight mode of psychology responds to any given situation. So if you question a cultural/religious narrative you are in essence triggering the human fight/flight mode, which makes it nearly impossible to change anyone's mind about their religion/national or cultural identity.

Quoting,
"When emotional hijacking occurs, the prefrontal cortex (PFC) acts as a manager of emotions by regulating and weighing reactions before acting on them (4). A network can compute a kind of emotional coherence through interactions among multiple brain areas including the PFC and the amygdale (1)."


The best way to go about it is not through confronting any psychological advance directly and thus not triggering the flight/fight response, but by making the person understand that the threat is not to be taken personally, and the tone of voice, the way the words are being spoken, the direction of those words all contribute to the deliverance of a message without it triggering that flight/fight response.

P.S.- I will add that the Baháʼí faith, as well as Sihkism also offer easy ways to achieve non-duality and both of these promote love and peace as well, so can add them on to that list of sure ways to achieve non-duality.

[Lusitanio]

I have seen quite a few videos from pro-Israeli sources trying to claim the attack as Hamas. All of them were fake or from other years. This was most certainly an Israeli strike as they are the ones who have the capacity and history of doing so.

[Siblesz]

As for the recent bombings, the IDF has been bombing hospitals, mosques, markets, residential apartment buildings... basically everything and anything. Here's an image from the guardian released like five days ago about where the IDF bombs have been hitting:

[sumskilz]

I have seen quite a few videos from pro-Israeli sources trying to claim the attack as Hamas. All of them were fake or from other years. This was most certainly an Israeli strike as they are the ones who have the capacity and history of doing so.

There were old videos of Hamas and PIJ rockets falling in Gaza circulating. From what I saw, sometimes they were falsely passed off as being this incident, other times they were just given as examples of how common it is for rockets fired at Israel to fall in Gaza.

However, there are five actual videos of the incident shown in this article: Israel says Islamic Jihad rocket misfire caused Gaza hospital blast

The IDF are saying it was most likely a PIJ rocket, not a Hamas rocket.

[Vanoi]

The US has issued a level 4 do not travel warning for Lebanon. The US has also ordered all non-essential embassy personnel and the family members of diplomats to leave the country due to an unpredictable security situation.

This comes after protesters marched on the US embassy.

[PointOfViewGun]

There were old videos of Hamas and PIJ rockets falling in Gaza circulating. From what I saw, sometimes they were falsely passed off as being this incident, other times they were just given as examples of how common it is for rockets fired at Israel to fall in Gaza.
However, there are five actual videos of the incident shown in this article: Israel says Islamic Jihad rocket misfire caused Gaza hospital blast
The IDF are saying it was most likely a PIJ rocket, not a Hamas rocket.

A number of facts make the Israeli claims implausible and questionable. IDF claims that the hospital was hit on 18:59 but we know that hospital was hit around 18:20. Telegram screenshots with 19:01 time stamp reporting 200 dead at the hospital with a picture of the damage after dust settled was first circulated then got deleted as it would be impossible to make that report 2 minutes after the strike. Then the trajectory map IDF Spokesperson account posted is not compatible with the video footage IDF is using for the bombing either as the horizon behind doesn't match. Then there is the fact that a video close to the scene shows a sound that is very similar to how a JDAM MK84 would sound which is commonly used by Israel. The claim now is that it was a fallen debris from a failed PIJ rocket as if any rocket they have is capable for such a devastation. As far as I know falling debris doesn't really make whistling sound either. Even if this somehow turns out to be a PIJ rocket the information Israel has been trying to use to relief any responsibility of the strike is the cause of confusion.