Is Rome OP or is Syracuse too hard?

**Avtomat Kalishnikov** · April 28, 2023, 12:08 PM

I'm currently playing on Normal.(lost the last Syracuse game on hard on previous version so scaled down difficulty for this campaign)
Carthage auto betrays you in a script here I think as I pumped all sorts of money into befriending them and signing treaties and they just declared war on me anyway.
So I restarted the campaign and put all that money into an army instead and attacked them first.

I thought I could just rely on releasing allies and I would eventually manage to grind through the Romans but they keep coming in full force. Its completely crazy.

Epeiros is also at war with them but never tries to land on Italy after it lost taras and isn't causing any trouble for the Romans.

I'm mostly relying on levies to afford anything and every battle is a struggle..

almost out of manpower after countless battles.

Rome is bearing down on me with 4 stacks with elite units.

..only 22 turns in.

**Brdar** · April 28, 2023, 03:47 PM

I played with Syracuse once. It is hard. Maybe one of the harderest starting factions. You need to focus on keeping the island and getting income. And using hoplite units to cheese rome units( in fort stance , get them to funnel into a entrance.
Then it is just steam rolling on the rome first then massing navy for carthage.
That's how I did it.

**Avtomat Kalishnikov** · April 29, 2023, 09:17 AM

And using hoplite units to cheese rome units( in fort stance , get them to funnel into a entrance.

Jeez I had forgotten that was even an alternative LOL. Ive been fighting all my battles in the field only, for years actually. And I have 1800+ hrs.
Thank you.
Crushing superior armies like this feels a little bit cheesy but I need to use all means necessary I guess.

Syracuse could still need a slight buff tho if only in population which starts in decline.

**Brdar** · April 29, 2023, 02:28 PM

Yep, but they have some of the best sword units IMHO.
But there are some total BS moments and you just gotta cheese.

**Avtomat Kalishnikov** · April 30, 2023, 07:04 PM

I really had to fight tooth and nail. What an epic fight! But I took Rome and finally got access to some reliable hoplites with massive population in Italy!

https://ibb.co/80jLN7W

**Brdar** · May 01, 2023, 02:34 PM

See, I told you.
Use cheap hoplites as javelin meat. Then use "real" hoplite units to grind all other units into dust.
But be weary, some celtic and germanic units have stupid long shieldwall spear range so if you engage them it would honestly be better in a open field.

**Maegfaer** · May 15, 2023, 06:09 AM

IIRC the scripted bonuses (causing stack spam) of Rome stops when you take their capital, so I think you should focus on that.

**Molecularbioguy** · May 15, 2023, 10:17 AM

Both Rome and Carthage will get bonus armies from time to time, so once you set foot in their mainland you have to go HAM.

Sounds like you did great, so the following is no longer relevant for you.

For a new Syracuse campaign, there is a bit of cheese that makes it easier. Save at the end of turn 1, then reload and end turn until Carthage wardecs you between turns 1 and 2.

If you are the one who wardecs Carthage, then her numidian vassal states will automatically defend her. Which makes invading and keeping Carthage nearly impossible. Their javelins will blot out the sun.

If on the other hand, Carthage wardecs you, then it may take a random number of turns until her vassals join in. This potentially gives you time to take Sicily, Carthage, and start working your way down the punic coast before having to deal with numidian vassal spamstacks of death. And by that point in time you likely have enough gastraphetes and north african aor cheap javelin magnets to be able to handle it.

Rome is hard (though probably not as hard as carthage+vassals at the same time), kudos to you for managing. I always found it easier to defend Syracuse with a partial stack, while going ham on Carthage first.

**Avtomat Kalishnikov** · May 24, 2023, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by Molecularbioguy

Both Rome and Carthage will get bonus armies from time to time, so once you set foot in their mainland you have to go HAM.

Sounds like you did great, so the following is no longer relevant for you.

For a new Syracuse campaign, there is a bit of cheese that makes it easier. Save at the end of turn 1, then reload and end turn until Carthage wardecs you between turns 1 and 2.

If you are the one who wardecs Carthage, then her numidian vassal states will automatically defend her. Which makes invading and keeping Carthage nearly impossible. Their javelins will blot out the sun.

If on the other hand, Carthage wardecs you, then it may take a random number of turns until her vassals join in. This potentially gives you time to take Sicily, Carthage, and start working your way down the punic coast before having to deal with numidian vassal spamstacks of death. And by that point in time you likely have enough gastraphetes and north african aor cheap javelin magnets to be able to handle it.

Rome is hard (though probably not as hard as carthage+vassals at the same time), kudos to you for managing. I always found it easier to defend Syracuse with a partial stack, while going ham on Carthage first.

Those are some good tips bro thanks I appreciate it.

I ended up wiping rome out then restarting the campaign on Hard. And then restarting that on hard again after a semi stagnant run with some loyalty annoyances.

In my current syracuse hard run (at turn 74 atm)I did it the other way around than you though, with a client state in panormos that doesnt get involved against Carthage and a half stack of cheap units, haploi etc and a very small navy of 3rd pop archers protecting sicily while I went into italy. I wanted to rush night battles but it can only be unlocked at level 7 I think so the war with rome was won by then.

With a better economy from looting italy and the north(over and over in genua

)) I built up a decent navy of 3rd pop archers and 2nd pop artillery ship combo 1 and half stack I can snipe unprotected carthaginian coastal cities and just releasing a new state or looting then abandoning(to rebels) depending on if I want the slaves or not. I think ill just keep doing that instead of trying some sort of invasion for the time being.

With the thureos reforms <3 getting access to very quick cheap 3rd pop melee units (with 900 javelins each) and decent 3rd pop thureos spears to guard crossbowmen things are way more flexible.

I killed rome with hoplite general, levy hoplite spam with 4-5 crossbowmen put them in fort and then have light cavalry on another general to reinforce the battles.

I noticed by the way that one can employ something like scorched earth on them by creating buffer states w/ rebel and then depleting their regional supplies. roma will then take massive attrition on their way to sicily and ignore or become friendly with the cosentia state. (just like carthage began to like the panormos state that rebelled against me even after I subjugated it)

I liked this flexible mindset so much tho that I started some barbarian campaigns

I'm enjoying this update quite a bit...! (I come back to the syracuse campaign every other day or so still)

Though it would have been better and way easier start with access to early euzonoi instead of haploi and especially if those fast ekdromoi hoplites were 3rd pop. Even in magna graecia conquered settlements need 2nd pop for their similar quick (regional) hoplites. Before thureos reform anyhow.

**Dago Red** · May 26, 2023, 01:34 PM

The script for the sudden appearance of Roman legions at certain triggers is cool, and historical. But the stack spam in general still needs tamping down. If diplomacy worked better and AI were more reasonable about peace treaties it would work better, but the way Rome2 works is most times you're fighting whomever to the death and no one in history would suffer 2 score+ decisive defeats and just keep fighting for another 100 years (except Rome and Carthage). Usually a people would sue for peace or surrender after 1 or 2 defeats....