How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Crusades

[aelfewulf]

So when the pope commands me to join the crusades, I say YES SIR like any good Christian king…but only just before mission expiry.
Then I’ll let my expensive units join, and suddenly I’m awash with cash cos my army upkeep is so low.
I’ll spend all the money on big building projects, while keeping the balance just below 20,000. I recruit as many 4 exp crusader knights and horses as I can find.
To keep the crusading army’s dream alive, I make tiny movements towards the target, sometimes switching units in and out of settlements just to keep them from deserting.

Usually by the time the crusades end, I’m still near to my regions, and I can quickly pull back with my shiny new exceptional units with lower upkeep costs.
My bank balance is healthy, and my settlements get a construction boost.

Not historical, but hey it’s all about selling a dream to the crusaders.

[Gigantus]

"Usually' - famous last words The odds are most of the times in your favor but the one time they aren't it can lead to some nasty surprises.

Question: do you really need that exploit? I mean it's kinda fun doing it but what's the point? You might as well use the console and give yourself some money - the crusade is meant to present a challenge, not to present a piggy bank.

Don't get me wrong, I've done it in my early days of playing as well - but where's the fun if there's no challenge?

[Jurand of Cracow]

So when the pope commands me to join the crusades, I say YES SIR like any good Christian king…but only just before mission expiry.
Then I’ll let my expensive units join, and suddenly I’m awash with cash cos my army upkeep is so low.
I’ll spend all the money on big building projects, while keeping the balance just below 20,000. I recruit as many 4 exp crusader knights and horses as I can find.
To keep the crusading army’s dream alive, I make tiny movements towards the target, sometimes switching units in and out of settlements just to keep them from deserting.

Usually by the time the crusades end, I’m still near to my regions, and I can quickly pull back with my shiny new exceptional units with lower upkeep costs.
My bank balance is healthy, and my settlements get a construction boost.

Not historical, but hey it’s all about selling a dream to the crusaders.

It shows that the anti-hoarding mechanism works (just imagine crusades later in the game, in larger empires).
One of the ideas to limit this behaviour was to introduce costs of joining - flat payment BGR style, even though Byg had it more elaborate, with his system of generals' wealth.

monitor_event GeneralJoinCrusade FactionIsLocal ; this means both crusade and jihad
and IsCrusade ; it's crusade (not jihad)
and CharacterReligion catholic ; to exclude non-catholic generals that are in a catholic faction

log --- Script start : Crusade Costs
if I_EventCounter DifficultyLevel > 1 ; for whatever reason there was an error if = used
console_command add_money -1000
historic_event INFO_COST_GENERAL_JOINS_CRUSADE
end_if

if I_EventCounter DifficultyLevel > 2
console_command add_money -1000
historic_event INFO_COST_GENERAL_JOINS_CRUSADE
end_if

if I_EventCounter DifficultyLevel == 4
console_command add_money -1000
historic_event INFO_COST_GENERAL_JOINS_CRUSADE
end_if

end_monitor

Perhaps we should adjust these costs?

In at least one mod (I don't recall which one), there's a mechanism disbanding crusading units after a crusade. We'll also introduce it.

Question: do you really need that exploit? I mean it's kinda fun doing it but what's the point? You might as well use the console and give yourself some money - the crusade is meant to present a challenge, not to present a piggy bank.

It's the modder task to minimize benefits / get rid of this exploit. So we should think how to do it.

[Gigantus]

Increase max_disband_progress and reduce movement_points_modifier in descr_campaign_db? Can't have loafing around while on crusades, can we?

[Macaras]

I think Gigantus's idea is much better - to raise disband_progress. One of the perks of sending crusade is the experience of the troops, to disband them after would be a fun killer. Its a pleasant thing to come back after the crusade and kick some enemies ass with a experienced, hardened troops and generals..
Also one thing to remember is that the player receives a solid reputation and pope relations boost for arriving to the target of the crusade. And once conquering the place he gets some special traits and ancillaries that make the crusade worth it. So if somebody wants to keep his units going very slowly just to get some more money he looses a lot of other stuff anyway.

[aelfewulf]

The reason why I use this exploit is because I’m always broke…the financial aspect of the game as of now is hard enough.
I agree with the idea of raising disband_progress.
Just let me keep my shiny new units please

[Gigantus]

There might be a misunderstanding what disband progress does - it defines the minimum distance the army has to travel towards the crusade target to avoid desertion.

[nvm]

I was expecting this thread to be about being on the receiving end of crusades, which is hell. Most crusade targets generally can survive being at war with half of the world due to generally being richer, far away, and having a better position than the average Catholic country, but say if you are really unlucky you can get a crusade on you as Lithuania turn 6 and then you may as well immediately restart. Even if you are not, it can be still pretty painful to fight one full stack per Catholic faction, and they are free for them, so it's only pain for you and hardly a dent on them.

Yet you can always just give up and hand them over the city, which is when their momentum immediately dies and all of them, deprived of their free upkeep and stuck in the middle of nowhere, become easy pickings, most try to get away. I dunno how exploity that is since having every country almost inevitably join up the crusade no matter what seems rather exploity to me as well. You know they are a serious threat, and with a crusade getting called on them, the AI knows too, and together you can try and fight back against the menace.

[Gigantus]

Handing over the city in a hopeless situation does not sound 'exploity' to me. More like a desperate race to get an ambassador to the right place in time.

[nvm]

It felt like an exploit to me because you can take the city back as early as next turn, it's not as big of a penalty to get a city of yours sacked or enslaved as it is in newer Total War games since cities don't go down in level. But then the crusade is over and the AI loses it's free troops, mercenaries, and for most part, a desire to fight so far away from home in just 1 turn. I dunno. Also kinda missed a few words there, I think the crusade mechanic is really cool against Mongols, because they are a huge threat and it feels appropriate for everyone to come together to combat them.

[Gigantus]

Taking the city back would be either through diplomacy or conquest. I can see where the latter can be considered an exploit - simply have a 'house' rule that a certain number of turns have to pass before you do that, eg give the AI a fighting chance.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Me, I have never dealt with the Crusade mechanics. Maybe @Macaras have dealt into the intricacies here, I don't know. Potentially, we could make the player's life a bit more difficult: eg. additional costs if the army is still in the home provinces.

In my games I also use this mechanism to temporarily lower the upkeep costs. Maybe it shouldn't be the case, but it helps if you're in the finanancial doldrums, as nvm mentioned. I wouldn't constrain it only to the Mongols because they were not the targets of the crusades, they were rather allies for the Christians in fighting the Muslims.

The list of homerules in response to the potential exploits is in this thread.