Azerbaijan-Armenia war over Nagorno Karabakh

[Vardano]

I fully support Greeks but it is just pathetic when Turks having precedent with Northern Cyprus talk about "realistic solution" in Artsakh.

"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

How long Turkey respected Treaty of Sèvres before attacking Armenia? Weeks, months? Armenia not gonna buy any Turkic anymore.

[PointOfViewGun]

It's not surprising that your reference is Treaty of Sevres. Says a lot about your position.

[Drtad]

A decent article that gives some background:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sebasti...g#267109622f90

[Nebaki]

A decent article that gives some background: https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbes-...t-vacuum-sale/

Did you even read that or are you just skipping some parts which you don´t like?

[Beorn]

This is a good thread to determine who is happy to see war, death and misery befalling to his neighbors and who is not...


Also,

So in your opinion Azerbaijan should just accept their split between Nakhchivan and rest of Azerbaijan?

This post either implies a total ignorance of the geography of Caucasus, or that Azeris should invade and annex parts of Armenia proper. NK is not close to the Nakhchivan exclave, uniting the exclave with Azerbaijan would require the annexation of large parts of Armenia...

[Vanoi]

Let me know when full scale offensives start. For now this is just a petty skirmish.

And damn didn't realize how much hate there was for Turkey regarding the Armenians and Azeris.

[Nebaki]

This post either implies a total ignorance of the geography of Caucasus, or that Azeris should invade and annex parts of Armenia proper. NK is not close to the Nakhchivan exclave, uniting the exclave with Azerbaijan would require the annexation of large parts of Armenia...

Let´s not forget here your ignorance about Azeri position while claiming others ignorant. First of these are not large parts and are just mostly mountains. So much to your knowledge about geography of Caucasus. This Issue is not just about Nagorno Karabakh which Armenians has caused.

But just tell me are you agree with the part that Armenia is still occupying Azeri Land which is even International recognized? aren´t these large parts for you?

[Beorn]

Let´s not forget here your ignorance about Azeri position while claiming others ignorant. First of these are not large parts and are just mostly mountains. So much to your knowledge about geography of Caucasus.

Alright, I will take the time to educate you again with a map of the region:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Roughly 1/4 of the territory of Armenia is a "large part", by any measure.
Also I think we established that you didn't deny the fact that you support the potential Azeri annexation of Armenian State areas. That's a good base for judging the rest of your opinions in this thread

Anyway, someone can suggest a non-azeri friendly and non-armenian affiliated news agency with detailed reports on the conflict and any serious international mediation attemps? In pretty much any major news agency, it's little more than a footnote so far.

[Drtad]

Let´s not forget here your ignorance about Azeri position while claiming others ignorant. First of these are not large parts and are just mostly mountains. So much to your knowledge about geography of Caucasus. This Issue is not just about Nagorno Karabakh which Armenians has caused.

Right, it's the region of Syunik that has several towns (Goris, Meghri, Kapan, etc.). But of course, those people don't matter to you.

[Nebaki]

Alright, I will take the time to educate you again with a map of the region:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Roughly 1/4 of the territory of Armenia is a "large part", by any measure.
Also I think we established that you didn't deny the fact that you support the potential Azeri annexation of Armenian State areas. That's a good base for judging the rest of your opinions in this thread

Are you really showing me a Map that consists pseudo "Republic of Artsakh" which is just founded after the armenian Occupation of Azeri Land?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

But probably you have aswell an answer to this.

[Beorn]

Are you really showing me a Map that consists pseudo "Republic of Artsakh" which is just founded after the armenian Occupation of Azeri Land?


But probably you have aswell an answer to this.

Alright, today's classes for Nebaki, Part Two:
De Jure/De facto

In law and government, de jure (/deɪ ˈdʒʊəri, di -/ day JOOR-ee, dee -⁠; Latin: de iure [deː ˈjuːrɛ], "by law") describes practices that are legally recognised, regardless of whether the practice exists in reality.^[1] In contrast, de facto ("in fact") describes situations that exist in reality, even if not legally recognised.^[2]

The map clearly states that it's a de facto independent state, not a De Jure one, just as other similar regions like Abkhazia, S. Ossetia and N. Cyprus.
None in the world recognizes NG's independence, and for good reasons.

Btw, your continuous unwillingness to clarify your comments means that you still support any annexation of Armenian territories, right?

[Vardano]

Erdogan's adviser told RIA Novosti that Turkey does not yet see the need to send its military to Karabakh.


That is, he will send when he sees the need, one might guess.

So Turks tell us to officially recognize rights of Azeris over Armenian land of Artsakh, where you can visit 1200 years old Christian churches and other monuments which prove that is Armenian soil, but they still deny genocide of Assyrians, Greeks and Armenians which is recognized by the the many many countries in the world. It is sad because when they try to play "the game of official truth and rights", there is millions of way to remind to look in the mirror and to check skeletons in their closets (literally).

[Nebaki]

Btw, your continuous unwillingness to clarify your comments means that you still support any annexation of Armenian territories, right?

You are the one here with the unwillingness to clarify your view about who is the Agressor and who is Defending. In my Opinion Azerbaijan has the right to take his occupied territories back aswell an small territory from Armenia to connect Nakhchivan to his Mainland as compensation from the Rogue State Armenia which starts always the Agression in that Region and also occupying since 30 Years Azerbaijans territory. Another solution to this would be a road between Nakhchivan, Armenia and Mainland of Azerbaijan, but since Armenia always prooving their agressive Moves in this case i don´t see there would be ever an Agreement between Azerbaijan-Armenia which armenian State would be remain faithful without sometimes Threatening them with closing these Road.

There are of course different ethnic groups but for example there are still Armenians in Turkey or even in Azerbaijan and how it comes they are not getting beheaded or stoned like someones in this Thread are trying to claim. You don´t need to be in fear of your Orthodox Brothers Beorn they will remain unharmed.

But with a borderline like that (Azerbaijan-Armenia-Nagorno Karabakh-Nakhchivan) there will be always a conflict. Btw in 2020 there can be not a annexation only a occupying, but love how you even presented us a Map which even passed over Azeri territory to armenians while we just seeing the mountainous area as occupied.

[Beorn]

Mate, I am an atheist and a hard criticizer of the majority of the practices of the orthodox faith

Additionally, I indeed consider the current NG status illegal, but at the same time I am against war between the two sides. You are trying to put words I don't believe or say in my mouth. Had Armenia instead tried to annex the Nakhchivan exclave, I would condemn it as I do the Azeri actions now.

As far as who is the aggressor in the events occurring in the last few days, it was Azerbaijan.

[PointOfViewGun]

As far as who is the aggressor in the events occurring in the last few days, it was Azerbaijan.

Why?

[Tureuki]

Everyone is againts a war between two sides, people acknowlodge the illegal status of NG and the rights of Azerbaijan over it, but in the mean time provide no diplomatic solution. And I'm the warmongerer when i say that Azerbaijan is left with no choice, which is clear as day. I proposed a possible middle ground above, would Armenians propose something even slightly closer to it? Unless they do, they are the ones inciting the conflict.

[Beorn]

@POVG
Mostly common sense.

Armenia has nothing to gain from a conflict in this particular moment. In terms of personnel and equipment they are overmatched (No russian army to back them up this time), their relations with Russia are at an all-time low so if they ask for help, they are either going to get ignored or it will come at the cost of a much greater russian influence in its internal affairs. Additionally, any goodwill left with the rest of the world as far as this conflict is concerted is going kaboom, if they are the aggressors.

@Tureuki
As a third-party observer and a proponent of self-determination, I think that the most fair path is a plebiscite either for autonomy, or for integration to Armenia. Any integration IMO should require some armenian reparations for the 90s, mutual guarantees for free access to and fro Nakhchivan for the Azeris and for the NG part populated by Armenians for their side. Tricky, and it would set another bad precedent like Kosovo did.

[Nebaki]

Mate, I am an atheist and a hard criticizer of the majority of the practices of the orthodox faith

You are Greek so you must be orthodox - atleast on Paper

Additionally, I indeed consider the current NG status illegal, but at the same time I am against war between the two sides. You are trying to put words I don't believe or say in my mouth. Had Armenia instead tried to annex the Nakhchivan exclave, I would condemn it as I do the Azeri actions now.

No one here wants War the most victims are conscripts some of them are even younger then us or older but this does not change the fact that there is an Issue between these two Nations and mostly they choosed the option of War.

As far as who is the aggressor in the events occurring in the last few days, it was Azerbaijan.

You know that a little bit earlier then Azeri High Ranking Officer getting killed? It´s not like that the armenian Side is doing only some border clash - they are intentionally tried to gain land and provocated an escalation. But I do neither Agree with you that Azerbaijan is the Agressor.

Armenia is splitting up with Russia and it´s getting backed someone else or thinks that they will back up them this time.

Btw here is footage of Nikol Pashinyan - some parts are really interesting:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

On 22:05 he says that they have effective cooperation with NATO and on 03:00 he starts talking about Nagorno Karabakh (blames Azerbaijan as Agressor on Nagorno Karabakh).

EDIT: Oh my gud did he really said that on 07:00?

[Drtad]

@POVG
Mostly common sense.

Armenia has nothing to gain from a conflict in this particular moment. In terms of personnel and equipment they are overmatched (No russian army to back them up this time), their relations with Russia are at an all-time low so if they ask for help, they are either going to get ignored or it will come at the cost of a much greater russian influence in its internal affairs. Additionally, any goodwill left with the rest of the world as far as this conflict is concerted is going kaboom, if they are the aggressors.

@Tureuki
As a third-party observer and a proponent of self-determination, I think that the most fair path is a plebiscite either for autonomy, or for integration to Armenia. Any integration IMO should require some armenian reparations for the 90s, mutual guarantees for free access to and fro Nakhchivan for the Azeris and for the NG part populated by Armenians for their side. Tricky, and it would set another bad precedent like Kosovo did.

Exactly, Armenia has absolutely nothing to gain here and it being the aggressor makes absolutely no sense. Essentially, Armenia has been advocating for a peaceful solution that takes into account the desires of Armenians, the people of NKR, and the people of Azerbaijan. However, Azerbaijan (and Turkey) only want what's good for them and have absolutely no regard for Armenian lives at all (as seen in this thread and all over social media and in their official statements and actions).

War is simply not a solution that is acceptable.

Here's an interview by the Armenian Foreign Minister with Al Jazeera about the recent escalation:

[Vardano]

It has been said that information of terrorists from Syria transferred by Turkey to Azerbaijan is "Armenian propaganda".

Times article:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/n...ians-wz6cqjc57

Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...rkeys-ambition

Reuters:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-a...source=twitter